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Is she really going out with him?

This is a bit of a rant inspired by some of the discussions of my recent post on Susan Walsh.

Let’s say you’re a young, horny, lonely heterosexual guy. You’re walking to the store to buy some, I dunno, pretzels, and you see the woman of your dreams walking arm in arm with some hideous toad of a man. You say to yourself: how is it that a nice guy like me can’t find any girl who will return my phone calls, while ugly boy here seems to have won the girlfriend jackpot? If you’re Joe Jackson, you write a song about it:

Pretty women out walking with gorillas down my street

From my window I’m staring while my coffee grows cold

Look over there! (Where?)

There’s a lady that I used to know

She’s married now or engaged or something so I’m told

Is she really going out with him?

Is she really gonna take him home tonight?

Is she really going out with him?

‘Cause if my eyes don’t deceive me,

There’s something going wrong around here

A lot about the world seems desperately wrong when you’re young, horny and alone. But maybe in this case there is something that you’re missing. Maybe the ugly dude is charming as fuck. Maybe he’s a brilliant thinker. Maybe he’s awesome in bed. Maybe she’s shallow and materialistic, and she likes him just because he’s rich. Or maybe there’s nothing redeeming about the guy – intellectually, sexually or financially — and the woman in question simply has horrendous taste in men. It could be any of these things.

But here’s the thing: no matter how wounded you feel, whom this woman goes out with is really none of your business. She doesn’t have to have a good reason to be going out with him. It’s not your call. The world doesn’t owe you a hot girlfriend, and this particular woman has the inalienable right to go out with whoever she chooses, even if you personally feel ill at the thought of them doing it. Women you find attractive aren’t obliged to date men you think are appropriate for them.

A lot of guys in the manosphere seem to have hung on to this young-man’s anger and sexual jealousy. But instead of somehow turning their resentment into a catchy song, and then moving away from the rock world to a more jazz-inflected sound, these men cultivate their resentments. And talk about them endlessly.

Soon they’ve developed the uncanny ability to demonize any woman who makes any romantic choice – other than picking them. If a “hot” women is dating an ugly dude, well,

He must be rich! All women are filthy golddigging whores! She’d never give a decent, hardworking beta like me a second look!

If the same woman is dating  a conventionally handsome man, the reaction can be just as strong:

She’s a shallow bitch!  They always go for the alphas! She’d never give a decent, hardworking beta like me a second look!

Weirdly, a lot of manosphere dudes also get angry about the sexual and romantic choices of women they aren’t interested in at all. If a woman they don’t think is all that hot is with a conventionally handsome man, it’s still the woman to blame:

Ha! She’s punching above her weight class, looks-wise. I guess any bitch can get laid, while a hard-working beta like me doesn’t even rate a second look. But eventually he’ll dump her and I will laugh and laugh. Live it up now, bitch, because you’re going to end up alone with a bunch of cats!

This is the thing that’s weirdest to me. Getting worked up about a woman you like who’s dating a loser? I can understand that. I did that, a lot, in my twenties. But quite a few manosphere dudes – and women like Susan Walsh who are manosphere-adjacent – seem somehow deeply affronted by the notion that any women could hook up with a man either lower or higher on that universal 10-point hotness scale so beloved by PUAs and other manosphere dudes.

Walsh speaks of “equilibrium” in the “sexual marketplace” (or SMP as she and her fans like to abbreviate it), and seems to consider any deviation from it to be a moral failing – of the women involved. (The slut-shaming is strong with this one.) Her idea of “equilibrium,” as I mentioned in my last post on her, is one in which fives date fives, tens date tens, and female sixes and sevens know better than to try to get the attention of male eights and nines by wearing low-cut dresses and “slutting it up.”

But here’s the thing. If you’re going to try to mix economic terminology into your dating advice, it helps to actually know what the terms mean. Market equilibrium, as Wikipedia handily summarizes it,

refers to a condition where a market price is established through competition such that the amount of goods or services sought by buyers is equal to the amount of goods or services produced by sellers. This price is often called the equilibrium price or market clearing price and will tend not to change unless demand or supply change.

Guess what? Insofar as the dating world is a marketplace, it’s already at equilibrium. Potential daters size up their prospects, and make a guess as to who is and who isn’t “in their league.” Those who are aiming too high (setting their price too high) and not hooking up with anyone (selling themselves) may end up lowering their standards (lowering their price) to make a sale (get laid).  Some products (people) appeal to a wide demographic; others to a nice market. Some have better marketing then others. Some products look good at first glance, but turn out to need a lot of repairs. All this is mighty familiar to students of economics. This is how markets work.

Of course, the dating world is even more complicated and messy than economic marketplaces. But in a lot of ways it really does act like one.

The interesting thing here is that Walsh and her followers aren’t thinking like capitalists at all. Essentially, they’ve decided that they know better than the SMP they so love to talk about, that their imaginary 10-point scale should predict who chooses whom better than those who are actually doing the choosing. That’s not capitalism; that’s a Soviet style command economy. It’s not the way marketplaces work, and it’s not the way the dating world works.

Guys: if no one is buying what you’re selling, you could try to change what you’re selling so that it appeals to buyers more. Or if you are confident in your product you can simply wait until a more discerning buyer shows up.

Or you could sit by yourself stewing  in your own bitterness and blaming everything on the bitches. Much like the jealous narrator of David Bowie’s classic Queen Bitch, only much less sexually ambiguous. And, frankly, much less appealing. In this song, Bowie manages to make sexual resentment somehow glamorous.

I would like to apologize for talking about this song and bitter manosphere dudes in the same sentence. But I’m still posting the video. This is Bowie, in 1972, performing it live, and fucking killing it:

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ClioPersephone
ClioPersephone
9 years ago

Funny… my bf likes that fact that I’m a feminist. He also likes me to speak and have opinions. But I suppose that this relationship doesn’t count somehow. Ah well, NWO world sounds really boring.

NF4ever
NF4ever
9 years ago

Good point, Samuel. Before anyone can be in a healthy relationship, they have to work on any codependency or self-image issues they might have- man, woman, or whatever in between. Or they’re just going to repel people. Bottom line.

Don’t think this doesn’t apply in practice to us spoiled princess women, either. You think guys are lining up to get with those unfortunate girls who eat tissues and hide bags of their vomit all over the place in order to conform to some twisted image they have of feminine perfection? Nope. Well there’s a male equivalent to that type of syndrome, and it’s just as self-destructive.

You might impress some other men if, after years of bs&t, you finally land some ditzy jailbait, but I’m telling you, in the meantime the type of woman who could have made your life truly fulfilling will just pass you by.

For those of you interested in biological perspectives, I recommend Robert Sapolsky. He studies primates and has apparently concluded that status in males is associated with affiliative and prosocial, not competitive, behaviors.

summer_snow
summer_snow
9 years ago

“My guess is you can’t be anything like the know it all bitch you come off as on manboobz.”

Awww. NWO thinks I’m awesome in real life! I’m flattered, NWO!

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

The weird thing is that summer’s schtick isn’t EVEN the “know it all” xD That’s Pecunium… or Rutee…

NWO isn’t even paying attn to the ppl he argues w/ nemore xD

If he paid attn he’d see that her style is similar to mine 😀 We’re like Ryu and Ken! 😀

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Don’t think this doesn’t apply in practice to us spoiled princess women, either. You think guys are lining up to get with those unfortunate girls who eat tissues and hide bags of their vomit all over the place in order to conform to some twisted image they have of feminine perfection? Nope. Well there’s a male equivalent to that type of syndrome, and it’s just as self-destructive.

The male equivalent to eating disorders is eating disorders : Some of the worst/best tips/dialogue I found on my way to an eating disorder/exercise compulsion were on male body building sites. There was a lot of body shaming there too, and “you shouldn’t eat an apple, that’s just empty carbs” and talk of desperately chewing and spitting because their body wanted them to eat and other v triggering and familiar things :

Also ppl get eating disorders for lots of reasons… usually the ED itself isn’t actually the cause, it’s merely a manifestation of trauma, or a need for control, or self harm, or yus, low-self esteem. : It might manifest itself more in women in terms of being thin b/c that’s the “ideal” for women and there’s a sense of “accomplishment” in heading towards that ideal (but it’s never enough when you get there).. but it manifests in men too, in terms of body building, having “lean” muscle, etc.. and it manifests for the same reasons sometimes (trauma, low self esteem, need for control)

A lot of survivors end up w/ ED in order to get some control over their bodies, and feel as if they can control over their life. If you can’t control anything else, at least you can control not eating. And at least you can triumph over hunger. (commercials feed into this a lot for women too, the number of yogurt and 100 cal snack commercials… a lot of those revolve around “defeating” hunger without “giving in”.. there’s a weight watchers commercial where hunger is literally represented as a monster that needs to be overcome) and once your body loses it’s hunger reflex, it can be downward from there because suddenly there is no hunger to overcome and eating becomes a choice, one a “Strong” person in “control” can choose not to do :

It is not so simple as just trying to fit “feminine perfection”… that idea definitely influences HOW these disorders manifest, but often the reason is much more complex and deeply rooted than that, and THAT has to be dealt with, and msgs of just “love who you are” won’t work : Also, neither does insulting ppl w/ anorexia or bulimia or other EDs.. the “anorexic bitches” stereotype that I see often when ppl try to make women feel better about their bodies “I hate those anorexic bitches, I like my woman to have some meat on her body (not to say you were doing that, but I’m expanding :3 )

As for whether men want to get with us… if you’re fat, there are guys who will say they like women w/ meat on them, and guys who will say “no fatties” and if you’re thin there are guys who will call you an anorexic bitch, and guys who will tell you how beautiful you are and how “they like a girl who takes care of herself”

Interestingly, at the peak of my anorexia was when the most ppl in my life told me how healthy I looked : Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon thing for other ppl w/ EDs I know :

summer_snow
summer_snow
9 years ago

Whoa there, NF4ever. Back off on trashing people with eating disorders. That’s not cool.

ClioPersephone
ClioPersephone
9 years ago

NF4ever men have eating disorders too. And as Ami already said, EDs are first and foremost about control and body image tends to be secondary.

Back off “those unfortunate girls.” They’re in enough pain already.

Sarah
Sarah
9 years ago

Yeah, NF4ever. Eating disorders are a really challenging symptom of mental illness. And it’s very often not even about trying to land a partner. It’s about control and punishment and hating yourself. =/

Nobby
9 years ago

Spoiled princess women with eating disorders? You should really think twice about what you’re saying there, NF4ever. Having an eating disorder doesn’t make one spoiled. Far from it.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@NF4ever:

“Before anyone can be in a healthy relationship, they have to work on any codependency or self-image issues they might have- man, woman, or whatever in between. Or they’re just going to repel people. Bottom line.”

Yeah, this is extraordinarily false. It’s not like only perfectly healthy people ever form relationships. My girlfriend has been dealing with a lot of self-image problems, but guess what? Not repelled. People with issues need people who will help them and support them, not to feel like, on top of their issues, they have to just “deal with it” or repel people.

darksidecat
9 years ago

There are feminists with eating disorders, they happen to all sorts of people. This is a complicated issue, NF4ever, and you aren’t particularly being compassionate yourself at the moment.

Also, referring to statutory rape victims as “ditzy jailbait” isn’t the greatest thing either.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@Sarah punishment is something also I forgot to add.. the idea of “I don’t deserve to eat”… a lot of the stuff you hear in ED support groups or in books about EDs is that it’s not really about “I want to be thin” or “if I eat I’ll be fat” it’s… “I got into a fight with a friend, I don’t deserve to eat” or “I got a bad mark, I don’t deserve to eat”… :

Sometimes it’s also about being afraid to let OUT anger, so it internalizes into self harm and starving yourself, throwing up food, or even eating TOO MUCH, can all be ways that ppl use to punish yourself : Like a common misconception of ppl with binging or overeating eating disorders is that they’re gluttons and they enjoy eating, when often if you listen to them they actually HATE it but it’s as much of a compulsion and a self-harm thing as starving is for me :

Rutee
Rutee
9 years ago

Uh, wow, yeah, that was wrong. Don’t do it in the future, it’s really fucking horrible to people who have eating disorders.

Wisteria
Wisteria
9 years ago

I just started posting recently, but I’ve lurked for a couple of months. So, here goes my advice to MRAL. Sorry it’s so long.

• Continue seeing your counselor and work on anger management. I think to some degree you have been dealt a raw deal and it doesn’t help that your brother seems to get things easily. But you need to be able to understand and deal with your anger, not just for your social life but for your happiness.

• When you return to college, check out different clubs and activities there. In both colleges I attended, at the beginning of fall quarter, there was an activities fair or something to that effect, usually people at tables representing different clubs. Take their info and find 4-6 clubs or activities that interest you. Don’t worry if you don’t especially like their reps, chances are not everyone in that club will be like them. Then go to the first couple of meetings. If you go to a meeting and the only people there are men, then continue if you’re passionate about the club, but keep looking. You want to find clubs that have women in them. Try to treat them as potential friends, not potential girlfriends. You want to get to know more women and feel more relaxed around them, not be sizing them up to date.

• If you’re religiously inclined, attend some meetings and services of your particular faith. From what I’ve seen, nearly all Christian and Jewish clubs or centers have more women attending than men.

The point to the suggestions above is to enjoy the clubs and activities and meet more women while doing so. I think the more women you meet in friendly situations, the less you’ll see them as mean, strange creatures who only want to ignore or hurt you.

One last thing… try to think better of yourself. It takes a bit of charisma for you to have posted some pretty awful things and yet people are still talking with and hoping for the best for you. I don’t like much about the MRA advocates I’ve known or seen online, but most of them seem so miserable, I can’t help but pity them. You deserve better.

Orion
Orion
9 years ago

MRAL,

I made my advice for you into a thread on Mostly On Topic. It’s EXTREMELY detailed and specific. I recommend you check it out.

Doctress Juuuu'ulia
9 years ago

Or, you could just give up, accept that you’ll never find any kind of long-term or whatever-it-is-you seek type of partnership, and get some pets and some comics and an XBox and live the rest of your life as a fucking hermit.

That’s my advice.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

Yeah, this is extraordinarily false. It’s not like only perfectly healthy people ever form relationships. My girlfriend has been dealing with a lot of self-image problems, but guess what? Not repelled. People with issues need people who will help them and support them, not to feel like, on top of their issues, they have to just “deal with it” or repel people.

Just wanted to say that’s a pretty surprising thing to hear from one of the regulars here. Not that I disagree with it entirely, it’s just very different from the usual experience where all a confused guy with no romantic success can expect from feminists is a heavy dose of snark, a “we’re not here to fix your problems!” and the suggestion that it’s all his fault and that if he’s not in a relationship then he probably doesn’t deserve to be.

BTW, agreed with NF4ever that the artsy bohemian types are the new alphas. The jocks are too busy shouting obscenities at passing women and stealing glances at each other’s bottoms in the shower. 😉

Magical Laura (@_magical_laura)

“But my advice for starters would be to deny any association with feminism, I mean no man wants to be despised for being a man. Second if you talk anything like you’ve typed here I’d say shutting up on occasion would do a world of good. Lets put it this way, what do you offer?”

My boyfriend chose me when he could have dated someone I’m 100% sure you’d consider hotter, who wasn’t a feminist, and did shut up. He even says he’s attracted to the fact I have a mind of my own o_O I offer him conversation, laughs, cuddles, someone to hang out and do shit with…what do YOU have to offer?

Magical Laura (@_magical_laura)

“it’s just very different from the usual experience where all a confused guy with no romantic success can expect from feminists is a heavy dose of snark, a “we’re not here to fix your problems!” and the suggestion that it’s all his fault and that if he’s not in a relationship then he probably doesn’t deserve to be.”

Where’s your example of this guy, Ion? If you mean MRAL, we’ve attempted endlessly to give him advice which he shoots down. If a guy asks us in good faith how to make girls like him that’s totally cool…when that guy comes in hatin’ ladies it’s not so cool.

No one ‘deserves’ a relationship, male or female. Relationships, and romantic love in general, are a privilege. And, as Kirby says, not many people in relationships are perfect. I suffer from clinical depression (I know, I’m just playing into your hands, huh?) and my boyfriend has anger problems sometimes. We work at it. We try harder to make each other happy.

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

Kirby wrote”Yeah, this is extraordinarily false. It’s not like only perfectly healthy people ever form relationships. My girlfriend has been dealing with a lot of self-image problems, but guess what? Not repelled. People with issues need people who will help them and support them, not to feel like, on top of their issues, they have to just “deal with it” or repel people.

Kirby, N4ever was not implying there are no exceptions but she was generalizing. Yes people that have not learned to “work on their self esteem” issues, can be in “healthy relationships”. But generally they do not work out. Look our divorce rate is more than half, I believe. There are so many on line dating sites it is out of control. Many people(especially men) look for an opposite sex person to validate them, “fix them”, be their savior. If men learned how to be alone with themselves to rely on their own inner self and self esteem rather than a female to fix them and make them look good in public to show off or to be their savior in life, it is not healthy. Sure there are exceptions Kirby and yes people need people, but that what friends are for-not to use a woman(or a man for a woman) to fix you or make a man look good. That is not a good sign in any relationship.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Samuel:

Well, small points first, the existence of dating sites does not correlate to any negative about relationships. And one partner relying too much on the other is not, I don’t think, one of the reasons divorce rates are so high. People date long before they marry, and thus should have a good idea of their partner’s psychological state, making these two points largely irrelevant with regards to the dependence you are talking about.

Main point: I probably agree with most of your paragraph, but honestly it doesn’t address my post. I was addressing NF4ever’s statement, which was implied to have no exceptions and was a generalization. I contradicted that generalization, and pointed out that the phrasing is very unhelpful for people who are seeking help but are afraid to because they think it would repel people.

Yes dependence is unhealthy, and shouldn’t be encouraged. But that doesn’t mean that people with issues need to fend for themselves. That’s just silly.

kristinmh
kristinmh
9 years ago

Jesus, Ami, I didn’t realize you could lose your hunger reflex. That’s awful. For me, being hungry for more than an hour or two triggers HULK SMASH behaviour – I can’t imagine going without food for so long that I forgot how to feel hungry. *hugs*

Orion
Orion
9 years ago

Kristin,

If Ami’s experience is anything like mine, then “being hungry for more than an hour or two triggers HULK SMASH behaviour” is still true, even with the nunger reflex gone. Like, what people with healthier eating habits call hunger is a sort of empty feeling in your stomach that comes with tummy grumbling and a desire for food. That’s what goes away if you ignore it long enough.

So instead, the way I know I need to eat is when I notice myself become light-headed, headachy, or anxious. Low blood sugar still causes all the irritability it does for anyone else, even more strongly in fact. It’s just that instead of instinctively realizing that I’m irritable because I’m hungry, I have to think back and figure out how much I’ve eaten that day.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

Where’s your example of this guy, Ion? If you mean MRAL, we’ve attempted endlessly to give him advice which he shoots down. If a guy asks us in good faith how to make girls like him that’s totally cool…when that guy comes in hatin’ ladies it’s not so cool.

I wasn’t talking about this blog specifically, rather places like Pharyngula or Pandagon (hell, even Amanda Marcotte’s article on how guys can succeed with women without resorting to PUA advice had a heavy dose of snarky contempt in it). As for MRAL, I actually think you’ve been coddling him too much considering his attitude.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Might want to say that in advance Ion, it may surprise you but few of us on here are mind readers.

Magical Laura (@_magical_laura)

Uh uh uh: “Just wanted to say that’s a pretty surprising thing to hear from one of the regulars here.”

Diiiiishonesty…let it rain all over me…

Rutee
Rutee
9 years ago

Pharyngula does not say “People who have issues need to be abandoned”. It says misogyny does not count as an issue that anyone is obligated to be patient through. Try again.

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@Magical Laura (@_magical_laura)
“My boyfriend chose me when he could have dated someone I’m 100% sure you’d consider hotter, who wasn’t a feminist, and did shut up. He even says he’s attracted to the fact I have a mind of my own”

Everyone has a mind of their own, thats feminist horseshit for agree with me or I’ll call you a misogynist.
——————————–
@summer_snow
“Awww. NWO thinks I’m awesome in real life! I’m flattered, NWO!”

No one could possibly be the total lying bitch you present yourself as here.
——————————–
@ClioPersephone
“Funny… my bf likes that fact that I’m a feminist. He also likes me to speak and have opinions”

Just because you have an opinion and you’re a woman doesn’t make you right. Which is the anti-thesis of feminism.
——————————-
Boohoohooo, why can’t you see women as humans with feeling and opinions. What a feminist load of indoctrinated manure. Woman+Feelings+Opinions, in no way translates into good, correct, moral, progressive, equality. Or am I still wrong.

Pecunium
9 years ago

MRAL: The “Brad Pitt” shit, is just that. I’m not Brad Pitt/Johnny Depp/Scot Bakula. I’m a really slight guy with red-hair and huge glasses.

It’s not stopped me from having a sex life, romantic relationships, women friends, etc. Really it hasn’t. Roissy classes me as hopeless. I am supposed to be wallowing in misery, a bottle of lube and my hand the only pleasure I get in this cruel world; best suited to a life of ascetic monasticism.

Only it’s not true. I am involved with women. I have women who express romantic/sexual interests in me.

No Wahlberg abs. No Valentino Eyes, none of that.

I just treat them like people.

As an aside… the internet is Real Life. Are you less real for being at the keyboard? No. The same is true of everyone else here.

Pecunium
9 years ago

NWO: Golly men are mean. Not men. You.

The worst part, you aren’t even clever at it. Your negging sucks, you lack the sense of inevitable success that makes someone like Roissy able to get lucky (he just keeps going, sooner or later someone is going to say yes. With a bit of attention one can narrow the odds of the humiliating rejection).

You also fail completely at the art of active listening (which, MRAL, would be something to work on; after you get over your bitterness). summer_snow said, ““Should I wear more perfume? Less? What flavors of sandwich smell the best? Should I dress exclusively in silky clothes, or would it be more fair to men to dress myself as a lumberjack half the time? Should I be attractive? Should I care about being attractive?

None of that was about her. It was all about the men. You can’t even notice when a woman is asking a simple set of questions, no wonder you fail at things like comprehension of world finance.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Zair: What’s the design of the “free market” you want to create?

What is unfree about the present “market”.

What benefits would accrue to women who marry under your ideal?

What are the harms to women you see in the present syst

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

(hell, even Amanda Marcotte’s article on how guys can succeed with women without resorting to PUA advice had a heavy dose of snarky contempt in it)

Aw, but that’s part of her charm!

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@Pecunium
“The worst part, you aren’t even clever at it. Your negging sucks, you lack the sense of inevitable success that makes someone like Roissy able to get lucky”

Actually, my “negging” as you put it. rocks, and I’m fantastically clever! So getting sex is, “lucky?” You make it sound like a man without being given sex from a woman is a lower life form. Is he unworthy if he doesn’t get, “lucky?” A bit of a pedestal you place women on, isn’t it? How come, “she” isn’t the lucky one?
—————————-
“You also fail completely at the art of active listening (which, MRAL, would be something to work on; after you get over your bitterness). summer_snow said, ““Should I wear more perfume? Less? What flavors of sandwich smell the best? Should I dress exclusively in silky clothes, or would it be more fair to men to dress myself as a lumberjack half the time? Should I be attractive? Should I care about being attractive? ”

None of that was about her. It was all about the men. You can’t even notice when a woman is asking a simple set of questions, no wonder you fail at things like comprehension of world finance.”

I listen just fine. When someone is wrong all the listening in the world doesn’t make that person right? If I recall the mantra women dress in make up/sexy clothes to feel good about themselves, not for men. So which is it? Or is it both ways again? Does a woman dress and act sexy too feel good about themselves but on a moments notice do it for men? The point was a womans personality was already beyond reproach, (men need to alter themselves to be acceptable to women, women are by default acceptable to men) so her personal beauty is the final frontier of personal perfection. You weren’t listening as usual.

Feminism follows the tell a lie and tell it often motto. They’ll gather a few followers like yourself who bleet whatever your told. As far as my knowlege of finances is concerned, I’m sure you saw the extra 2 trillion in debt as spending your way out of debt. Somehow in my stupid thought process I see this as……well stupid.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Samuel: Serious question, have you ever lived with someone with whom you were romantically involved? Dating and living together are not the same. Married is a far different thing.

It’s worth noting the high rate of failure is heavily left skewed. That means that making through the first few years makes almost all the difference.

katz
9 years ago

I wasn’t talking about this blog specifically, rather places like Pharyngula or Pandagon (hell, even Amanda Marcotte’s article on how guys can succeed with women without resorting to PUA advice had a heavy dose of snarky contempt in it). As for MRAL, I actually think you’ve been coddling him too much considering his attitude.

So when you said that we’re always shooting guys down and refusing to give them advice when they ask for help, what you meant is that other people other places do that and we’re actually doing the opposite.

redlocker
9 years ago

In short, MRAL, there are plenty of people who don’t look like Brad Pitt, Depp, Jolie or even Ellen Page, yet get plenty of sex and are even in relationships.

Personality: It makes people sexier.

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@redlocker
“In short, MRAL, there are plenty of people who don’t look like Brad Pitt, Depp, Jolie or even Ellen Page, yet get plenty of sex and are even in relationships.

Personality: It makes people sexier.”

Just remember MRAL, women already have personalities that don’t need altering. Because if you don’t see them as having personalities you’re not seeing them as human. You need to learn to accept women as they are, not what you want them to be. Isn’t that right ladies?

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Ion:
I wasn’t talking about this blog specifically, rather places like Pharyngula or Pandagon (hell, even Amanda Marcotte’s article on how guys can succeed with women without resorting to PUA advice had a heavy dose of snarky contempt in it).

Then why are you blaming us for it?

Pecunium:
Roissy classes me as hopeless. I am supposed to be wallowing in misery, a bottle of lube and my hand the only pleasure I get in this cruel world; best suited to a life of ascetic monasticism.

In his defence, you almost entered a life of ascetic monasticism. Well, ascesis at least.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

So when you said that we’re always shooting guys down and refusing to give them advice when they ask for help, what you meant is that other people other places do that and we’re actually doing the opposite.

Note, however, that when we do the opposite of the terrible thing, it’s still worthy of blame. Because that was the only relevant part of this entire sub-argument.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@Kristin Orion is right… except I don’t listen to mine like he listens to his : But your body still needs energy, so like.. throughout the day I always get dizzier, more tired, and more prone to being upset and etc : For a while I used to write it felt like I was a ghost in the world… barely alive… it’s better now, but I still dun eat enuf and I still can’t get myself to eat regularly… :

also part of it when you go into starvation mode, is your brain starts to want to hoard everything.. like when I was rly bad, I just had this compulsion to get as much food as possible… I’d never EAT it (cuz I couldn’t get myself to : ) but I always needed the fridge to be stocked and have like twice as much food if I did eat… it’s part of the survival instinct b/c your body has no idea WHY you’re starving, all it knows is that you are, so it wants you to get as much food as you possibly can :

The thing is that if you have an ED where you’re trying NOT to eat, then not having a hunger reflex… well at least for me, I always characterized that as my point of no return… suddenly it wasn’t a struggle every day to make it through hunger pants… and then that’s when I rly fell off the table : It became easier to go from 1200 calories a day to 800 to 600 to 0…

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@Sarah
“Yeah, NF4ever. Eating disorders are a really challenging symptom of mental illness. And it’s very often not even about trying to land a partner. It’s about control and punishment and hating yourself.”

Holy crap, women even oppress themselves. We’ll just chalk the blame up to the patriarchy. I’ve oppressed myself therfore I’m a victim. Neener. Neener.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

So when you said that we’re always shooting guys down and refusing to give them advice when they ask for help, what you meant is that other people other places do that and we’re actually doing the opposite.

Yeah, surprisingly enough this place is better than most in that regard. I mean, better than most feminist blogs, even though of course all feminists are different. They just happen to use the same lingo, same terms and writing style and sound really, really similar.

Pharyngula does not say “People who have issues need to be abandoned”. It says misogyny does not count as an issue that anyone is obligated to be patient through. Try again.

Are you hostile and argumentative 24/7 or do you take vacations? I’m not even sure what you’re replying to. It’s almost like you just want to fight and don’t particularly care about the details. Hmm, no wonder you’d defend Pharyngula.

shaenon
9 years ago

So when you said that we’re always shooting guys down and refusing to give them advice when they ask for help, what you meant is that other people other places do that and we’re actually doing the opposite.

Of course, people don’t do those things on Pandagon or Pharyngula either, although they do indeed get snarky.

redlocker
9 years ago

So…snark = misandry/manginaness?

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

My writing style is rly rly similar to other feminists? xD

summer_snow
summer_snow
9 years ago

“No one could possibly be the total lying bitch you present yourself as here.”

Wait a second. HEY EVERYBODY! NWO just said that there’s a limit to how awful women can actually be! So no matter what a woman does in real life, she can’t possibly be as evil as my behavior on Manboobz!

Take that, Ami! I’m the Queen Bitch now! I got yer crown and there’s nothing you can do to get it back! Muahahahaha!

Also, what have I been lying about, NWO? Is it the pickles? Do you think I’m lying about pickles? That’s gotta be it, right?

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Well you’re just the lying bitch… I’m the vile and cruel person who starts cults and tramples on cis straight men xD

*takes crown back and gives you your own crown* :3 There can be more than one Queen Bitch that NWO hates xD

summer_snow
summer_snow
9 years ago

“There can be more than one Queen Bitch that NWO hates xD”

True. There’s definitely enough NWO-hate to go around. I don’t think we’re gonna have to fight over it.

Pecunium
9 years ago

VoiP: It’s not to Roissy’s defense. He thinks I should enter a monastic life to get away from the pain of my woman caused abstinence.

NWO: You misunderstand my comment on, “getting lucky”. I don’t think Roissy is able to get laid because he has the insight to women’s psyches he pretend, but because if he asks enough women, some of them will say yes.

I don’t think sex is a favor women bestow on me, it’s an activity we agree to share, as any such activity is shared between people who want to do it, be that paintball, cooking, gardening, working on a motorcycle, singing, dancing, etc.

As I said, your lack of comprehension in the simple things is why you don’t understand things of actual complexity escape you.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

For whoever mentioned Thom Yorke, I searched “Thom Yorke is” on Google, and the first of the “suggested searches” was “Thom Yorke is ugly”, so, yeah.