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Is she really going out with him?

This is a bit of a rant inspired by some of the discussions of my recent post on Susan Walsh.

Let’s say you’re a young, horny, lonely heterosexual guy. You’re walking to the store to buy some, I dunno, pretzels, and you see the woman of your dreams walking arm in arm with some hideous toad of a man. You say to yourself: how is it that a nice guy like me can’t find any girl who will return my phone calls, while ugly boy here seems to have won the girlfriend jackpot? If you’re Joe Jackson, you write a song about it:

Pretty women out walking with gorillas down my street

From my window I’m staring while my coffee grows cold

Look over there! (Where?)

There’s a lady that I used to know

She’s married now or engaged or something so I’m told

Is she really going out with him?

Is she really gonna take him home tonight?

Is she really going out with him?

‘Cause if my eyes don’t deceive me,

There’s something going wrong around here

A lot about the world seems desperately wrong when you’re young, horny and alone. But maybe in this case there is something that you’re missing. Maybe the ugly dude is charming as fuck. Maybe he’s a brilliant thinker. Maybe he’s awesome in bed. Maybe she’s shallow and materialistic, and she likes him just because he’s rich. Or maybe there’s nothing redeeming about the guy – intellectually, sexually or financially — and the woman in question simply has horrendous taste in men. It could be any of these things.

But here’s the thing: no matter how wounded you feel, whom this woman goes out with is really none of your business. She doesn’t have to have a good reason to be going out with him. It’s not your call. The world doesn’t owe you a hot girlfriend, and this particular woman has the inalienable right to go out with whoever she chooses, even if you personally feel ill at the thought of them doing it. Women you find attractive aren’t obliged to date men you think are appropriate for them.

A lot of guys in the manosphere seem to have hung on to this young-man’s anger and sexual jealousy. But instead of somehow turning their resentment into a catchy song, and then moving away from the rock world to a more jazz-inflected sound, these men cultivate their resentments. And talk about them endlessly.

Soon they’ve developed the uncanny ability to demonize any woman who makes any romantic choice – other than picking them. If a “hot” women is dating an ugly dude, well,

He must be rich! All women are filthy golddigging whores! She’d never give a decent, hardworking beta like me a second look!

If the same woman is dating  a conventionally handsome man, the reaction can be just as strong:

She’s a shallow bitch!  They always go for the alphas! She’d never give a decent, hardworking beta like me a second look!

Weirdly, a lot of manosphere dudes also get angry about the sexual and romantic choices of women they aren’t interested in at all. If a woman they don’t think is all that hot is with a conventionally handsome man, it’s still the woman to blame:

Ha! She’s punching above her weight class, looks-wise. I guess any bitch can get laid, while a hard-working beta like me doesn’t even rate a second look. But eventually he’ll dump her and I will laugh and laugh. Live it up now, bitch, because you’re going to end up alone with a bunch of cats!

This is the thing that’s weirdest to me. Getting worked up about a woman you like who’s dating a loser? I can understand that. I did that, a lot, in my twenties. But quite a few manosphere dudes – and women like Susan Walsh who are manosphere-adjacent – seem somehow deeply affronted by the notion that any women could hook up with a man either lower or higher on that universal 10-point hotness scale so beloved by PUAs and other manosphere dudes.

Walsh speaks of “equilibrium” in the “sexual marketplace” (or SMP as she and her fans like to abbreviate it), and seems to consider any deviation from it to be a moral failing – of the women involved. (The slut-shaming is strong with this one.) Her idea of “equilibrium,” as I mentioned in my last post on her, is one in which fives date fives, tens date tens, and female sixes and sevens know better than to try to get the attention of male eights and nines by wearing low-cut dresses and “slutting it up.”

But here’s the thing. If you’re going to try to mix economic terminology into your dating advice, it helps to actually know what the terms mean. Market equilibrium, as Wikipedia handily summarizes it,

refers to a condition where a market price is established through competition such that the amount of goods or services sought by buyers is equal to the amount of goods or services produced by sellers. This price is often called the equilibrium price or market clearing price and will tend not to change unless demand or supply change.

Guess what? Insofar as the dating world is a marketplace, it’s already at equilibrium. Potential daters size up their prospects, and make a guess as to who is and who isn’t “in their league.” Those who are aiming too high (setting their price too high) and not hooking up with anyone (selling themselves) may end up lowering their standards (lowering their price) to make a sale (get laid).  Some products (people) appeal to a wide demographic; others to a nice market. Some have better marketing then others. Some products look good at first glance, but turn out to need a lot of repairs. All this is mighty familiar to students of economics. This is how markets work.

Of course, the dating world is even more complicated and messy than economic marketplaces. But in a lot of ways it really does act like one.

The interesting thing here is that Walsh and her followers aren’t thinking like capitalists at all. Essentially, they’ve decided that they know better than the SMP they so love to talk about, that their imaginary 10-point scale should predict who chooses whom better than those who are actually doing the choosing. That’s not capitalism; that’s a Soviet style command economy. It’s not the way marketplaces work, and it’s not the way the dating world works.

Guys: if no one is buying what you’re selling, you could try to change what you’re selling so that it appeals to buyers more. Or if you are confident in your product you can simply wait until a more discerning buyer shows up.

Or you could sit by yourself stewing  in your own bitterness and blaming everything on the bitches. Much like the jealous narrator of David Bowie’s classic Queen Bitch, only much less sexually ambiguous. And, frankly, much less appealing. In this song, Bowie manages to make sexual resentment somehow glamorous.

I would like to apologize for talking about this song and bitter manosphere dudes in the same sentence. But I’m still posting the video. This is Bowie, in 1972, performing it live, and fucking killing it:

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summer_snow
summer_snow
9 years ago

You’re right, NWO, there sure isn’t any advice given to women on how to improve themselves. At all. No magazines, no books, no TV shows, no advertising.

So how about we even things up a little here.

I’d like some advice! What would make me more acceptable to men?

Should I wear more perfume? Less? What flavors of sandwich smell the best? Should I dress exclusively in silky clothes, or would it be more fair to men to dress myself as a lumberjack half the time? Should I be attractive? Should I care about being attractive? Should I try harder to be attractive? Do you like pickles?

Please, advise me.

katz
9 years ago

Also 90% of our advice to MRAL is on how he could be happier. The only real judgement call we make is that he shouldn’t wallow in his own misery.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

David, makeup is nothing more than women indulging our whorish, hypocritical natures. Trying to be attractive for men has nothing to do with it.

I thought it was so we could get money from men (or free drinks or child support or something?) Obviously that’s still our “whorish” natures at work, but it still requires being attractive for men, so sort of both/and on the motivations? Honestly, whichever explanation for a woman’s behavior makes her sound bitchiest/most evil is likely correct (a corollary to Occam’s Razor, I believe.)

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

I’ll note that despite all the posturing no one has given any tangible ways to make oneself more appealing aside from exercise disorder and “fix your personality” (too vague).

katz
9 years ago

Stop calling women Her Holy Highness.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

Let’s take a very average-looking, nice-ish guy with a normal weight, who is having trouble with the wimminz. You would have no suggestions aside from exercise disorder, because there are no other options. The feminist FUCKS exposed.

katz
9 years ago

First of all, no one suggested exercise disorder. You did.

summer_snow
summer_snow
9 years ago

MRAL, if you want dating advice, go write a post about it on your blog. We’ll be happy to come over and comment if you drop a link.

Right now, we are not discussing your personal troubles. We are waiting on an explanation of your Greek System. With pictures and numbers on it.

katz
9 years ago

Make some platonic female friends.

katz
9 years ago

Stop obsessing over what every woman thinks of you. Just let it go.

katz
9 years ago

Don’t complain all the time. Talk positively about things you like.

katz
9 years ago

Stop worrying about your height.

katz
9 years ago

Should I stop? Or should I go for the Full Ami (filling the entire Recent Comments sidebar)?

katz
9 years ago

Get a hobby.

katz
9 years ago

Do something nice for someone without expecting anything in return.

katz
9 years ago

Don’t bash feminists. Lots of women are feminists.

katz
9 years ago

Get an emo haircut to boost your self-esteem.

katz
9 years ago

Stop blaming everyone else/the universe for your problems.

katz
9 years ago

Acknowledge that sexism exists and stop doing it.

katz
9 years ago

Hang out on blogs less and in the real world more (no digs at the other people here–we don’t have hopeless love lives).

katz
9 years ago

Stop bashing fat women.

katz
9 years ago

Educate yourself about sex.

katz
9 years ago

And once and for all–STOP USING THE GREEK SYSTEM! IT DOESN’T REALLY EXIST!

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

’ll note that despite all the posturing no one has given any tangible ways to make oneself more appealing aside from exercise disorder and “fix your personality” (too vague).

Well your biggest problem MRAL is that you act like a jerk waaaaaaaaaaaaay to often so until you fix that, we really do not have much to say that you could even use.

Erl
Erl
9 years ago

Let’s take a very average-looking, nice-ish guy with a normal weight, who is having trouble with the wimminz. You would have no suggestions aside from exercise disorder, because there are no other options.

Umm . . . depends why he’s having “trouble with the wimminz.” Is he failing to put himself out there? Is he idealizing women who are only interested in him platonically? Is he embarrassed to make a move, even when it’s appropriate? Does he fail to keep himself groomed and attractive, disdaining the idea of a fashion sense? Is he, in fact, exaggerating the ordinary difficulty and grind of romantic encounters into “trouble,” and does he just need to relax and be patient? Those examples are just a small fraction of what “trouble with the wimminz” could actually mean. I’ve listed those in particular, because I’ve done all of them.

There are solutions for each of those, but there isn’t a one-size-fits-all answer. In fact, the more I learn about *why* this particular guy is having the trouble he is, the more detailed and more specific my advice would become. Which makes the idea of really general advice like you suggest a nonstarter.

spearhafoc
spearhafoc
9 years ago

no digs at the other people here–we don’t have hopeless love lives).

Well, I do. Heh.

MRAL, I suggest you dress better. Classic styles. Think Mad Men or Film Noir. Not to get women, just because cool clothing makes the world a more awesome place to live in.

I can’t remember who “asked” the advice on perfume (I don’t have access to a regular computer while I’m here in BC, and I’ve been using my Dad’s Blackberry Tablet. Total pain in the ass to search, type and whatnot), but I would suggest not wearing it. Perfume makes me nauseated. Can’t stand the stuff.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

MRAL, you can’t stand yourself. What on earth makes you think a woman should want to date you? Would you date you?

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

Yeah, I don’t think it’s too much to give the helpful advice that being angry and bitter all the time is off-putting to most people. I also think intelligence and a good sense of humor can make even the least conventionally attractive men seem pretty sexy. Working on your personality won’t just help you with attracting a partner, but it will also help you make more friends and in your career.

Compare that with all of the ways women are pressured into looking good for men. We diet, do Pilates, wear push up bras, wear makeup, cram our feet into uncomfortable high heels, and spend hours fixing our hair. It’s expensive and time consuming. If we choose not to do those things, we’re accused of letting ourselves go. None of it matters past a certain age, though, and we can spend thousands of dollars on plastic surgery in a vain attempt to look younger. While I agree that both sexes deal with looksism in life, I think women are hurt more by it.

Katz, lol about the image of Bakula leaping in time to warn people about bitches. Then Al would appear and tell him, “Ziggy says there is a 75% probability you leaped here to start a boycott of Ameriskanks. Watch out, Sam, they’re everywhere”.

katz
9 years ago

I can’t remember who “asked” the advice on perfume…I’ve been using my Dad’s Blackberry Tablet.

Totally parsed this as “blackberry tablet” being a kind of cologne.

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

me too katz

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@David Futrelle
“NWO, you are aware that women, on average, spend more time and energy on looking attractive than men do. Do you put on makeup before you leave the house?”

Well whiptifuckindooo. The attitude and personality is above reproach, just slap on a little war paint and viola, godess material. exfuckingcetera, one of my many imperfections.
——————————-
@Bagelsan
“And really, isn’t “stop hating women and saying misogynistic things about them” a really low bar? It’s not like we’re saying crazy stuff like “wash your shirts” or “comb your hair” or “learn to cook” or anything like that!”

As your comment just drips misandry. Golly men are mean.
——————————–
@summer_snow
“Should I wear more perfume? Less? What flavors of sandwich smell the best? Should I dress exclusively in silky clothes, or would it be more fair to men to dress myself as a lumberjack half the time? Should I be attractive? Should I care about being attractive? Should I try harder to be attractive? Do you like pickles?”

Note the recuring theme, make yourself more attractive and feel good about yourself. Because it’s all about you. Not so much on changing your personality to please a man is there? Oh no, no, noooooo! No woman should ever change for a man. You whinney and moan about a few beauty aids. Never have I heard what women are prepared to give or sacrifice for a man. But ya sure demand men give and sacrifice.
———————————

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

MRAL, If you spell women as “wimminz”, you’re already repelling a lot of women. I don’t find it to be much of an insult, but I do think it is annoying. Also, if you broadcast your MRA status to many women, that would probably scare them away, too. Those would be the first specific ways I would suggest you work on your personality. I also recommend not whining and griping around women. It drags everyone down. If you find it impossible to be more positive, then visiting a counselor might be the next step. There’s no shame in seeking help with your mental health. I’ve been seeing a crisis counselor since the tornado, and it’s helped me tremendously. Maybe you could also benefit from seeking help.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Okay,I’m worried that MRAL just buried the lead. MRAL, are YOU developing an eating/exercising disorder? o_O

Secondly… as somebody else here said.. YOU can’t stand yourself… and that has a LOT to do w/ it -_-

And for general tips… personally? xD Cuz I can only speak for myself… your anger is a turn off… the fact that you start swearing about women randomly… turn off… that you blame everything on everybody else but yourself… like… that’s not attractive : In any guy, even super hot attractive ones, even intelligent ones… the ppl I date who start to always talk about how his boss is this, or her co-workers are like that, or everything in their life is somebody’s fault… that’s a major turn off…

also I rly do suspect you’re AFRAID of ppl liking you : that’s why you act the way you often do.. like in the forum… you WANT ppl to get mad at you and dislike you, cuz it’s easier for you to handle.. if ppl LIKE you, you then have the pressure of “failing” that maybe they won’t like you when they get to know you better, or you’ll say the wrong thing, or etc etc.. if you let ppl in, they might hurt you… it’s easier for you to see the world as unfair feminists who hate you for genetic reasons you’ll never be able to fix -_-

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

This stuff is priceless
We’ve got Katz with her , “Don’t bash feminists. Lots of women are feminist” and “Acknowledge that sexism exists and stop doing it.”

Then we’ve got Kendra, the bionic mommy with, “Also, if you broadcast your MRA status to many women, that would probably scare them away, too.”

So what ya wanna do is always support women in every way while running away screaming at the mere suggestion that men deserve any rights what-so-ever. And of course the always enjoyable admitting men and sexism are synonymous which of course makes women victims.
———————————-
We then move onto, “Those would be the first specific ways I would suggest you work on your personality. I also recommend not whining and griping around women.”

Yes you need to fix your personality. Don’t gripe about women being wrong or cold or callous or anything unsavory. Women are never at fault. Men are the problem.
———————————-
Of course when all that ultimately fails you, “There’s no shame in seeking help with your mental health.”

Thats right you are broken!
———————————–
And theres so much more you need, “I also think intelligence and a good sense of humor can make even the least conventionally attractive men seem pretty sexy. Working on your personality won’t just help you with attracting a partner, but it will also help you make more friends and in your career.”

You gotta work on your humor, intelligence and personality. Women already have all these great qualities in abundance so the only thing left is personal beauty!
———————————–

MRAL, heres my advice. You’re fine just the way you are. Heres something you’ve probably never heard in school, church, on the TV, radio, internet, magazines or billboards. Men are fucking great.

spearhafoc
spearhafoc
9 years ago

I see this has turned into yet another “let’s all help MRAL deal with his issues” thread.

summer_snow
summer_snow
9 years ago

They all do, Spearhafoc. MRAL is irresistable bait for Manboobzers.

Vermin
Vermin
9 years ago

Maybe this should be MRAL’s dating strategy? Act all vulnerable and stuff, and sooner or later, some woman will just look at him and say “oh, you cutie, let me help you”.

Of course, he would have to refrain from calling that hypothetical woman a bitch, and generally being a jerk.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Remember when Ion was all jealous because MRAL got so much attention and was all like “You all just love MRAL ’cause he’s a moody bad boy!” and stuff?

Comedy.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Act all vulnerable and stuff, and sooner or later, some woman will just look at him and say “oh, you cutie, let me help you”.

My little sister, as a toddler, used to play a game in which she was an ornery cruel kitty and our mom had to try and coax her out from her pillow fort, despite being repeatedly rejected and hissed at, to prove her undying maternal love. Perhaps MRAL is trying a similar strategy, but forgetting that he is not an adorable small girl and we are not his mom?

eilish
eilish
9 years ago

Tell you what, let’s make this one REALLY the last “HelpMRALdealwithhisissues.”
After this, we can just direct him to this thread. Everybody make a note: Aug 6 ‘Is she really going out with him?’ Ami’s advice at 7:29 is particularly valuable.

Be happy with yourself, MRAL. Like yourself. Take note of everything Katz said, and work on never saying that stuff ever again. Stop being angry about the things you don’t have.
Let go of all the sad shit in your head, and let yourself be happy because it’s a beautiful day, or the surf’s fantastic, or you saw a kid at the beach having fun. Take pleasure from the things in your life already.Then, practice liking other people. Forgive them. Understand them. Be happy with them.

America, STOP with the market analogies. For fuck’s sake. You are not things. You are not for sale. Life is not a transaction. Jeezus Krriste.

Zair from upthread was going on about the transfer of wealth from men to women (see where this obsession with market analogies has taken us?) and follows up with how women would really like marriage if that was all they could get, because it’s such a good deal.
(Someone didn’t read ‘The Feminine Mystique’.)
They proclaim that society is forcing men into the role once reserved for women: and are outraged by how wrong this is. It causes unhappiness. However, if women were forced into the role once reserved for them, that would be really nice. The unhappiness vanishes.
MRAs are a very dishonest bunch. The reason they don’t like to state their manifesto is because it says “if men suffer, that’s wrong. If women suffer, that’s peachy.”

Jill the Spinster
Jill the Spinster
9 years ago

MRAL, nice guys don’t randomly swear and have anger problems, they volunteer in the community and help elderly people cross the street.

Don’t fixate on gettting a girlfriend as solving your problems, only you can make you happy.
I know this because it’s a problem I used to have.

What made me wake up was realising that I didn’t like to spend my time with moody, angry, depressed people so why would anyone want to spend time with me when I was all of those things?

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

Ami, I already don’t do any of that shit in real life, also, this average nice guy is just a hypothetical construct to show the fallacy in the feminist fuck “market yourself” argument.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

what fallacy? o_O

MRAL, if you don’t act at all like you do here IRL, then how do you expect ppl to give you advice if we apparently don’t know you at all? xD

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

My therapist told me to start being less abrasive, and I think I’m succeeding IRL, also that’s the reason I don’t come here as much because it always leads to me getting worked up. It doesn’t really help though, I mean I guess I’m generally more positive but externally no one really cares.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

MRAL, does your therapist tell you that in order to be in a relationship with a woman you actually have to, you know, talk to them first? Even really great looking guys have to talk to women and express interest. If you’re not sharing your new positive outlook with people, it’s not so much a matter of them not caring, as it is not knowing.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Or join clubs, get involved in social activities, etc etc, like we suggested to you before, and I reminded you of on the forum 😀

The problem is that you’re pretty isolated, and that you see women only as prey to be hunted and you want some secret way to “get” them.. you see women as “girlfriend or bust” and that’s the issue… you don’t see them as possible FRIENDS…:] which is why I think getting involved in stuff will help you 🙂 you’ll meet ppl and make friends.. and the more women you become friends w/ and get to know, the more that will know you.. and things may just happen 🙂 (that’s generally the way I get into all my relationships xD even pre-transition)

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

Well I usually operate under the assumption that since 999/1000 women will not be interested in me (as a non-Brad Pitt), and also a good chunk of them will actively go out of their way to be mean and then go laugh about the creepy would-be rapist in the bathroom with their friends… it’s not really worth it. I don’t have self-esteem strong enough to withstand constant assaults. Maybe some men do, but I don’t. So I’m just waiting for someone to approach. Maybe that’s even less likely, but at least I’ll know where I stand, and also I don’t have to deal with women gossiping about me for blinking at the wrong time and thus being a creepy rapist stalker.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

MRAL, you can’t be in a relationship with a woman if you won’t talk to women. I mean, I keep trying to think of a way it could work but, I’m coming up empty.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

MRAL:

You do realize that nearly every single human being that has existed or will ever exist is not Brad Pitt, right?

summer_snow
summer_snow
9 years ago

Gosh, you’re totally right, MRAL.

I, and 998 other women, are going dateless tonight because we’re all holding out Brad Pitt. Angelina Jolie is the only woman in the world getting laid.

And seriously, what makes you think girls talk about you in the bathroom? Ever been in the ladies’ bathroom? Or are you just making assumptions?