On the ironically named Happy Bachelors forum, the regular poster who calls himself khankrumthebulgar – and whose real name is Randall Joseph Shake — has been complaining about those of us who’ve pointed out that much MRA and MGTOW rhetoric sounds all too similar to the rhetoric of Norwegian terrorist murderer Anders Breivik. In response to Hugo Schwyzer’s post on the topic at the Good Men Project, he wrote:
This smacks to me of extreme desperation. As they are trying to draw us into a response. They should hear Crickets chirping. … they are in need of traffic, controversy some off the wall unhinged response. When they receive none, it simply means we will not waste the oxygen to answer these absurd and insane accusations. No evidence exists that the MRA or MRM is in any way connected to the Norwegian gunman. IF we were there would be dozens of dead Feminists by now. There is none, hence this is a weak and pathetic attempt to incite violence and is irresponsible on their part. …
If such violence were to happen. After such outrageous accusations, it is Hugo Schwyzer and the Good Menz Project who is financially liable for stoking and promoting extremism in the hopes of generating a violent response. The blood will be on their hands not ours.
You will notice that this argument is identical to that of Angry Harry: if an extremist commits an act of terrorism or violence, don’t blame him or his extremist ideology; blame the people who pissed him off. Taken to its logical extreme, this specious argument would mean blaming the Jews for the Holocaust; after all, they’re the ones who got Hitler so worked up in the first place.
It seems to me that if you don’t want people to associate you with terrorists, you should probably stop talking like terrorists, referring casually to “dozens of dead feminists” and trying to blame the enemy in advance for any violence that comes from your side.
Also, you should probably stop making comments like the following, which were posted in response to Amanda Marcotte’s recent post on Misogyny and Terrorism. The first one, from spocksdisciple, a board moderator, fantasized about a violent backlash that would put women in general and feminists in particular in their supposed place:
[T]he backlash against feminism and it’s misandry will be both awe inspiring and terrifying at the same time.
Modern radical feminism is doomed, any woman sprouting these kinds of statements after the backlash won’t last very long, people and especially men are growing angrier everyday and all these whining losers in the feminist movement is doing to kicking a sleeping bear even harder.
Feminism is so done that women will be lucky if any man bothers to even look at them other then as a piece of meat, the days of the 19th century are going to come back where women either know their place or they’ll suffer the consequences of their actions and arrogance, big daddy gov’t isn’t going to be around to protect the rights of women to act like bitches.
And you probably shouldn’t talk about burning down buildings with people inside them, as khankrumthebulgar (that is, Randall Joseph Shake) does in this comment:
Feminists will be treated like the French Nobility was during the French Revolution. There will be a payback to these Evil Bitches. … As to the Good Mangina Project, they are our enemies. Burn the building to the ground with them in it.
Is he literally talking about burning down a building, or is he speaking metaphorically? In the wake of a tragedy that involved a man literally gunning down the children of his leftist and feminist enemies, khankrumthebulgar’s comments are indefensible either way.
Let me reiterate: these are posts from men who are angry that people have linked them in any way to the Norwegian terrorist. Are they really this lacking in self-awareness, or are they so used to talking in an environment where violent comments about feminists are so common and accepted that they don’t even realize the irony?
I don’t know, and I don’t care. I just wish that those in the MRA and MGTOW movements who are bothered by this kind of talk – and I know there are some who are – would actually step up and declare this sort of shit out of bounds. I’m not holding my breath.
Note: The Happy Bachelors forum is members-only, so the links to the forum won’t work if you’re not a member. Here are screen shots of all the forum comments mentioned in this post, in order. Click to see the full-sized image. I edited several of the comments, but indicated all removed material with ellipses. As you will see the edits did not change the meaning of what was said.
khankrumthebulgar gives his real name
khankrumthebulgar on Hugo Schwyzer (just the portion of the comment that is from him; the rest quotes Schwyzer’s post).
spocksdisciple comment
khankrumthebulgar’s “burn the building” comment
Much of the MRA forecasting of a violent MRM future is silly, but not unprecendented. When one side of a conflict feels defeated, humiliated and weak, there is often millenarianist movement that is sprouts up. The Jewish belief in a coming messiah is often said to have been transformed from the annointing of a King, to the coming of a savior, after the Romans defeated and humiliated the Jewish state. There is also a theory that Jesus during his life was actually a militaristic anti-Roman rebel, who was captured and executed for his treason against Rome, and that his tranformation into the loving, parable rambling mystic son of God happened much later. He was one in a long string of Jews who attempted to throw out the Romans.
On a related note, is anybody else concerned about the rise of rampant lesbianism, as I am? It’s truly lesbionic.
Rachel said:
Clarence said:
It looks like you’re deliberately constructing your argument so you’ll never be satisfied. Might want to have that checked out by a professional.
I love how NSWATM is now a gold-standard for respectability from you people, as opposed to the terrible, no-good, very bad Manboobz. Clare, honey, you do know that it was started by a Manbooz poster who identifies as feminist and a lot of the commentariat are Manboobz regulars, don’t you?
SQUEE! Oh my goodness, you are ADORABLE. Do a hard-nosed general from a 1950s disaster movie next!
And you’re the only woman in the boy’s club, who’s mysterious and edgy and probably (ahem) Experienced, and you’re cooler than those other girls, and if all of us just treat each other like people you won’t get to be Red Sonja any more. That’s OK. I “get” that.
@ Samuel
“MGTOW men have realized that women through feminist indoctrination have lost most of their value as partners for companionship, dating, marriage and child rearing.”
So, MGTOW are angry because women no longer have to stay in the kitchen and pop out children all the time?
Also, civil disobedience =/= being an internet tough guy.
As much as some people here (both men and women) have criticized the MGTOW movement or mocked, it is a legitimate effective growing movement. All we are asking for as MGTOW men is Gender Separatism. If MGTOW men are bitter at women, and even some feminists are bitter at men, We MGTOW say let us separate. No fighting,wars, or any other drama.Just let men and women separate.MGTOW men are peaceful, we do not want to be violent at women.We are saying MGTOW have “given up” bailed out” on marriage and dating, and want to remain single bachelors.MGTOW men have learned that MEN Do not need women and women do not need men. We just say lets separate and avoid each other. In fact there is a few MGTOW men that are choosing celibacy and have realized that men with discipline Can control our sex drive and actually avoiding women and being celibate can make one spiritually stronger.Women we do not want to bother you or hurt you, we just want you to go separate from us men and we will separate from you.Thank you for allowing me the freedom to post my viewpoint on this wbsite
Samuel – There’s nothing wrong with being celibate by choice. (There’s something wrong with doing it because you have hideously skewed views of what women are like and what we expect of you, but whatevs.)
Just go do it already.
Samuel, if the guys in the MGTOW movement were celibate by choice, they would not spend all their time bitching against women and against guys that have success with women. It’s obvious these guys are very unhappy about their celibacy.
@Holly Pervocracy
“There’s nothing wrong with being celibate by choice. (There’s something wrong with doing it because you have hideously skewed views of what women are like and what we expect of you, but whatevs.)”
You are so righteous Holly. If men wanna go MGTOW knock yourselves out, but how dare you blame women for mens shortcomings!
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@no more mr nice guy
“Samuel, if the guys in the MGTOW movement were celibate by choice, they would not spend all their time bitching against women and against guys that have success with women. It’s obvious these guys are very unhappy about their celibacy.”
If only men could feel the wisdom of your words. Men have always tried to control womens actions thru laws and social pressure. Women on the other hand have always put mens welfare before their own. If only men understood their acceptance by womens standards of behavior ensures their success with women. MGTOW celibacy is a poor excuse for not being acceptable to womens standards.
Samuel, do you think anyone is actively stopping men from Going Their Own Way?
Where’s the difficulty with living alone and working from home, or seeking work in an all-male environment? Or will you only be happy with a whole men-only homeland?
What is it you, as an MGTOW, actually want?
I read a blog about an MRA who gave up being an MRA because he realised he was being a paranoid idiot. He admitted he was never too good with women and had wasted his youth blaming them for it. He must have found a lovely girl if he came to this revolution. I wish him happiness.
Graham – I always picture MGTOW guys as that person who gets angry so they storm out of a party, only to find that everyone keeps partying quite contentedly without them, so they have to come back to the party just to let everyone know how angry they are and that it’s a big deal that they’re leaving.
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Yeah, she’s a feminist. But she has a really hard time handling criticism and tends to get hyper-defensive about stuff in a nasty way.
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Should “But” not be “,therefore? =) In my own experience she’s not as bad as Shakesville’s “Liss”, but then that’s saying almost nothing.
Graham, to answer your question, What do we want as MGTOW guys? Just people both men and women to respect us not mock us, call us “loser” men who cannot get a women anyway.In reality, many MGTOW men(not all,of course) are actually handsome successful men who like sports like tennis skiing football ice hockey portsamd others like other men but we have decided to do it without women. Moreover,Many MGTOW men (not all) like opera,art,music,books,dance, like many people do. Many MGTOW men(not all) work out,cook for ourselves,try to eat a healthy diet, go to a gym to lift eights,jog not to look good to meet women but to take care of ourseles,nurture ourselves, be healthy since many men die young from prostrate cancer and heart disease. Many MGTOW men (not all) have learned that they do not NEED a women to take care of them -to nurture ourselves.Men are not some dumb,sex crazed,non entity,bufoons, as portrayed on TV shows and in the media. We are educated and feel hurt and offended when some women call men “pigs” or “dogs” with one thing on our mind “sex”. How offensive.Many mgtow men(not all) have learned to transfer their sexual energy into hobbies like music,art,spirituality, and Men CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT SEX, in fact reserving sexual energy can advance one spiritually. Finally on the note of spirituality, Many MGTOW men not all may be open to dating women again in the future.If Feminists would just listen to our MGTOW viewpoint without mocking us as “losers” who are stupid and and angry and cannot get a women anyway( Personally, I own my own Architectural firm and am not some stupid male pig buffoonn, and many other MGTOW men are successful,handsome, not “creepy” guys like womes say.We are human beings with varied interests. If we were just respected by feminists. we would consider dating again After all us men received initial nurturing by our moms,we were in a female womb for 9 months we have a male instict to desire urturing from a female as mammals..Until things change for MRM both legally for Fathers rights or Mens rights and we feminists listen to us respect us not mock us and put us down as male pig chauvinists we continue to go our own way.
“Until things change for MRM both legally for Fathers rights or Mens rights and we feminists listen to us respect us not mock us and put us down as male pig chauvinists we continue to go our own way.”
Samuel…I don’t think anyone minds if men decide to “go their own way”. That’s not the issue. Nobody is imploring you to do otherwise.
It’s merely being pontificated that although men say that they are happily going their own way, they don’t seem terribly happy about it. It’s reflected in the “manosphere”. Most of the MGTOW/MRA bloggers don’t sound happy at all, they sound angry, sad, and bitter. For instance, I read on one MGTOW blog (MarkyMark’s Thoughts on Various Issues), “I have to tell you folks: I don’t want to live much longer. I want to outlive my cat, so I don’t worry about what’ll happen to her. Once she’s gone though, I want to die too.”
You don’t like being called losers for what you do and how you go about doing it? I don’t think that most women care to be referred to as “sluts who ride the cock carousel”, “feminazis”, “dream-killers”, “man-hating bitches”, and so on, let alone the dark references to some sort of violent backlash against women that many MRAs/MGTOW seem to fantasize about. Basically, nobody likes being called names or being mocked. And from my observation, MRA/MGTOW bloggers tend to be a lot more heavy-handed on the use of ad hominen than mainstream feminist bloggers.
I don’t feel as though Graham was asking you or other men what would make you not go your own way but rather, what would enable you to *happily* go your own way and be done with it already. Because for men who claim to be going their own way independently of women, the lot of you sure do seem to expend a lot of time and energy being hung-up on…women.
“Yes. By all means, let’s keep discussing this. Instead of, you know, what this entry is actually about.
“Derailing the conversation isn’t troll-y at all. Hey. How about I go to an MRM blog and demand that everyone discuss Greek mythology with me?”
Vacuumslayer, please do this. I’ll troll right along with you! 😀
Thanks Ppr1ka for your feedback.Typical women male shaming language.Saying we spend t”expend a lot of time and energy being hung up on women. Well how untrue.One MGTOW site is referred to as “happy Bachelors”. Many of the posts(not all) have nothing to do with women. They deal with mens issues like hobbies, advice on finances,cooking,things to do for single men. Also, many MGTOW MRM sites have forums where the majority of blogs have nothing to do with females and just deal with mens stuff to chat about for fellowship and male bonding. In fact some mgtow men have men only retreats in the country where men can camp, fellowship,fish, meditate. There are no women there and we dont talk about women at all. I believe the blogs where mgtow men allegedly obssess over females are not the majority of our viewpoint. These blogs receive more attention from women and feminist men because they invoke emotion and controversy.Sometimes an MGTOW man will post on a feminist blog just to give our viewpoint in a civil manner.However, There are a lot of MGTOW may bthe majority who are going our own way ( I admit I blog but many many MGTOW men live quiet lives(called “GHOSTING”),(some are even celibate) and just prefer to avoid women.WE have to be civil as citizens when dealing with women in public places like businesses and in our workplace but other that we prefer to believe that gender separatism is the best solution and in the best interests for not only men but women as well.
“In fact some mgtow men have men only retreats in the country where men can camp, fellowship,fish, meditate. There are no women there and we dont talk about women at all. I believe the blogs where mgtow men allegedly obssess over females are not the majority of our viewpoint.”
If you’re whole on your own, without women, why do you specifically need a retreat where there are none? I am a whole woman without ever having a pet cat, but I don’t go out of my way to avoid pet stores or shun people that have them as pets.
I feel like if you really didn’t care about women, you… wouldn’t care about women. It wouldn’t matter if they were around or not.
“WE have to be civil as citizens when dealing with women in public places like businesses and in our workplace but other that we prefer to believe that gender separatism is the best solution and in the best interests for not only men but women as well.”
Wait, now gender separatism is best for women too? I thought it was only for MRAs? Do you mean *all* the women, as in every woman in the world? Because I’d definitely miss my male penpal and my male teacher who got me into literature and my friend Deep End and…
Samuel – If you don’t want to deal with women, well–don’t.
Stop talking about women. Stop arguing with women. Stop trading stories about how terrible women are. Stop fighting these things you think women think about you.
And just go be a man. Man it up all day. Do your man thing. That’s fine. As long as you don’t break any laws (i.e., no, you cannot hire only men in your business), you can spend your whole life manning around.
I’m not even being sarcastic. If being a MGTOW isn’t about women but is about hiking and fishing and opera–GO HIKE AND FISH AND SING OPERA.
Don’t hang around with a bunch of women telling them about it.
Look, Samuel. I’m not trying to shame you or anybody. I’m just giving my observation, which I backed up with a quote. I’ve read articles from The Spearhead, Boycott American Women, Angry Harry, Markymark, Roosh, and many others. I’m pointing out that these guys don’t seem like very content people. If they want to go their own way and be separate from women, that’s fine. I just don’t think it’s healthy to claim/strive to be totally happy without women in one’s life, and then turn around and spew a lot of anti-woman vitriol all over the web.
To be clear though, I’m not saying that MGTOW all secretly need women or should be with a woman. For instance, I live a mostly very happy life, and I firmly believe that I do not need a goat to give my life meaning. In so doing though, I do not get on the internet and type up essays and blogs demonizing goats. Personally, I don’t really like goats and if you asked, I might not have the best of things to say about them (although chevre is delicious). But I don’t waste precious time fuming over them, avoiding them, or imagining a world without them.
David pulls a great deal of his quotes from Happy Bachelors, and in spite of the name, they don’t seem very happy. If you’re right about Happy Bachelors being predominantly fixated on their own personal spheres, I’m glad to hear it. I wouldn’t know, since I’m not a member. I do find it quite telling that the part of HB that non-members are allowed to access, “Best of”, is largely (though not entirely) made up of complaints, anecdotes, and other discussions about women.
Would you care to provide a link to what you consider to be a model MRA/MGTOW blog/website that does not have articles going on about how terrible Western women or feminists are, or how they’re all going to be sorry some day, something to that general effect? I believe that there’s some sort of challenge on this website, to give an example of a moderate MRA/MGTOW website, though I don’t know all of the particulars of the challenge.
Papr1ka, as for a link. Well go on the site,Categories as Mens health,finance and economics,cooking/nutrition advice,hobbies and interests.There is a category on music and movies. Yes there are any posts about women.BUT THIS GIVE MEN WHO HAVE BEEN HURT EMOTIONALLY BY WOMEN a place to vent. Sure some of it is maybe very angry but thes are the minority postst but receive the most attention on the internet inasmuch as their controversial.But many blogs on the Happy Bachelors sites are about hobbies,music,financial and household advice,etc. also papr1ka, a great book that expresses our philosophy is “Fire in the belly” by Sam Kean.Another book that is pretty good is “Iron John” by Robert Bly(I do not agree with everything in the book, but it generally has some good insight about men learning to nurture themselves and their emotions and the importance of men bonding with other men but also getting solitude and away fro materialist,stressful society.Men retreats are nice
Samuel, the real problem is that we think everything you’re saying is hateful horseshit, but if it makes you go away, fine.
Fine Holly, I will go away. I will end this topic(anyway,it can go on and on ad nauseum,lol).I was just giving our point of view. Honestly, I feel just a wee bit offended inasmuch as you stated that EVERYTHING I posted is” hateful horsesh*t “. I mean out of all a male(or female) could post on any one topic, there is no validity in anything.Even if you disagree without that persons OVERALL opinion? What about being a bit open minded in a few things to agree.Then there could be healing between men and women and love which is what spirituality is all about.Finally, without releasing bitterness and anger there is no forgiveness. Men have stuffed feeling too long.Now men are learning to vent their hurt by women and anger in controlled environment(he internet is valuable i it reaches many people internationally to hear different gender viewpoints).Who knows, if men were not shamed for being hurt and angry at many things women do, perhaps healing could come and we will forgive women and seek love and fellowship with women.But if we are constantly mocked and EVERYTHING we say is hateful horse feces we will GO OUR OWN WAY.Just remember, many of our newer MGTOW men are successful,attractive(handsome in what would generally be considered handsome in society-everyone is different in their personal taste in looks), WE ARE NORMAL MEN, NOT CREEPS who are well rounded,independent, and many are spiritual deep down inside(Hence, the large Mens spirituality movemet).I will post no more and end my comment on this topic. Thanks for listening whether you agree or disagree.Peace and blessings
“Women we do not want to bother you or hurt you, we just want you to go separate from us men and we will separate from you.Thank you for allowing me the freedom to post my viewpoint on this wbsite”
Well that’s a bald faced lie, you’re still posting here. If you want to seperate, seperate, but I don’t think you actually want that. I don’t care though. Just do it and stop whining about how women supposedly have perpetrated massive injustice on men; your whining isn’t supported by facts.
Samuel, the thing is: I didn’t decide to be born female. It just happened to me. I’ve been trying to make the best of it.
So never mind worse–for you to say that men are DIFFERENT from women is incomprehensibly hateful to me.
My mind is just not open to the idea that my entire life was set on a course for evil the second my egg bumped into an X sperm and not a Y. I, personally, don’t do any of the things “women” do except for the ones men also do. Then… every woman could say that.
God, “forgive” women. What asinine fucking arrogance. We don’t want your fucking forgiveness. We want you to realize that we didn’t fucking do anything to you in the first fucking place.
But if you’re too fucking dumb and bitter to fucking understand something as fucking simple as “3.5 billion people did not simultaneously wrong me,” then go fuck the fuck off and don’t bother grown-ups with your fucking bullshit.
(P.S.: Do not interpret the above comment as anger at men. It is anger at YOU.)