On the ironically named Happy Bachelors forum, the regular poster who calls himself khankrumthebulgar – and whose real name is Randall Joseph Shake — has been complaining about those of us who’ve pointed out that much MRA and MGTOW rhetoric sounds all too similar to the rhetoric of Norwegian terrorist murderer Anders Breivik. In response to Hugo Schwyzer’s post on the topic at the Good Men Project, he wrote:
This smacks to me of extreme desperation. As they are trying to draw us into a response. They should hear Crickets chirping. … they are in need of traffic, controversy some off the wall unhinged response. When they receive none, it simply means we will not waste the oxygen to answer these absurd and insane accusations. No evidence exists that the MRA or MRM is in any way connected to the Norwegian gunman. IF we were there would be dozens of dead Feminists by now. There is none, hence this is a weak and pathetic attempt to incite violence and is irresponsible on their part. …
If such violence were to happen. After such outrageous accusations, it is Hugo Schwyzer and the Good Menz Project who is financially liable for stoking and promoting extremism in the hopes of generating a violent response. The blood will be on their hands not ours.
You will notice that this argument is identical to that of Angry Harry: if an extremist commits an act of terrorism or violence, don’t blame him or his extremist ideology; blame the people who pissed him off. Taken to its logical extreme, this specious argument would mean blaming the Jews for the Holocaust; after all, they’re the ones who got Hitler so worked up in the first place.
It seems to me that if you don’t want people to associate you with terrorists, you should probably stop talking like terrorists, referring casually to “dozens of dead feminists” and trying to blame the enemy in advance for any violence that comes from your side.
Also, you should probably stop making comments like the following, which were posted in response to Amanda Marcotte’s recent post on Misogyny and Terrorism. The first one, from spocksdisciple, a board moderator, fantasized about a violent backlash that would put women in general and feminists in particular in their supposed place:
[T]he backlash against feminism and it’s misandry will be both awe inspiring and terrifying at the same time.
Modern radical feminism is doomed, any woman sprouting these kinds of statements after the backlash won’t last very long, people and especially men are growing angrier everyday and all these whining losers in the feminist movement is doing to kicking a sleeping bear even harder.
Feminism is so done that women will be lucky if any man bothers to even look at them other then as a piece of meat, the days of the 19th century are going to come back where women either know their place or they’ll suffer the consequences of their actions and arrogance, big daddy gov’t isn’t going to be around to protect the rights of women to act like bitches.
And you probably shouldn’t talk about burning down buildings with people inside them, as khankrumthebulgar (that is, Randall Joseph Shake) does in this comment:
Feminists will be treated like the French Nobility was during the French Revolution. There will be a payback to these Evil Bitches. … As to the Good Mangina Project, they are our enemies. Burn the building to the ground with them in it.
Is he literally talking about burning down a building, or is he speaking metaphorically? In the wake of a tragedy that involved a man literally gunning down the children of his leftist and feminist enemies, khankrumthebulgar’s comments are indefensible either way.
Let me reiterate: these are posts from men who are angry that people have linked them in any way to the Norwegian terrorist. Are they really this lacking in self-awareness, or are they so used to talking in an environment where violent comments about feminists are so common and accepted that they don’t even realize the irony?
I don’t know, and I don’t care. I just wish that those in the MRA and MGTOW movements who are bothered by this kind of talk – and I know there are some who are – would actually step up and declare this sort of shit out of bounds. I’m not holding my breath.
Note: The Happy Bachelors forum is members-only, so the links to the forum won’t work if you’re not a member. Here are screen shots of all the forum comments mentioned in this post, in order. Click to see the full-sized image. I edited several of the comments, but indicated all removed material with ellipses. As you will see the edits did not change the meaning of what was said.
khankrumthebulgar gives his real name
khankrumthebulgar on Hugo Schwyzer (just the portion of the comment that is from him; the rest quotes Schwyzer’s post).
spocksdisciple comment
khankrumthebulgar’s “burn the building” comment
I think Rutee’s standard is a good one.
I hereby repudiate all feminists who call for violence!
There, you’ve met, like, five of us now.
Yep, because women have no inner lives at all; we just go around thinking “How can I best take the most advantage of/fuck with/toy with random men I’ve never met?” We never, ever wear things because we like them, and we certainly are never tired, in a bad mood, not ready for a relationship, in a relationship already, or just not attracted to a particular guy. Nope, failing to respond adequately to commands means YOU ARE JUST A BIG OL’ MEANIE.
Maybe it’s the pregnancy hormones, but I’m starting to think the MRM needs a bottle and a blankie.
Rutee actually did something that I respect. You’ve sort of tiptoed around it, Holly. What does it take for someone to make your “no longer a feminist” list? Is it being anti-egalitarian and saying women are better? Is it being dismissive of fathers? Is it being dishonest in argumentation? Is it calling for extermination or subjugation of men? Or is it merely attacking other feminists such as the debate between “sex pos” and “anti pron” feminists?
I will say that by my lights any MRA who calls for extermination or enslavement of women or thinks that men are better as a sex from women is NOT an MRA. Furthermore, if I saw Paul Elam, say, behaving as disgracefully as Marcotte did , I’d disown him too. Calls for violence too can get you kicked out by my lights as well, unless its self defense.
Hmm. Strange. Guess this conversation is over. I have two comments in moderation for some reason.
Thought the feminists here would be interested in this story, seeing as feminism is about equality and manboobz is not just about picking out the most extreme of men’s rights:
Man kills self after being falsely accused of rape
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/08/man-kills-self-after-being-falsely.html
I’m betting linkspam, given context. Hopefully this is an attempt to substantiate that feminists as an aggregate call for violence, because that will be popcornworthy.
I don’t mean that as itself a negative, btw, I’ve had posts held in moderation for linkspam before. Not here, but.
So, TAB, does that justify mass murder or threats thereof, or is it just a contribution to the same goddamn “feminists: do they suck or what?” dialogue that MRAs want to have all the time and everywhere?
It’s a tragedy he died. It doesn’t make the accusations false. Nor does asserting it blindly.
http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/on-breivik-and-feminism/37817?sid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en
A piece by a Norwegian in the Chronicle of Higher Education about the visit of Norway’s first female prime minister just hours before Brevik made it to the island (her visit may have been the reason for the date of his attack–and if he’d not been delayed, she’d probably have been killed)—generally more about Brevik’s hatred of feminisms/marxisms/cultural and critical theories.
Nah, my comments were about what my standards were for excommunicating someone from the MRM. No links in them, and as far as I can tell no bad words either.
Question! What the hell does Amanda Marriote have to do with the violent Rhetoric of the MRA? Shes never had violent speech or advocated it she has nothing to do with this post….this is just another disgusting way for the MRA to derail the conversation for their own gain…..The Duke Lacrosse case has absolutly nothing to do with any of this!
The MRM is not a single organization with a central governing body. You can not throw people out just because they’re inconvenient. You can disavow them within the movement, but you can’t deny they belong to it merely for inconvenience. I’d agree that there are minimum standards, but those minimum standards aren’t going to be easy to chuck people out for.
I’m a member of a locked down feminist comm (for ppl to rage about traumatic exps, or things that happened to us, or even just sexism we see, or sexist TV ads, etc), membership is pretty vetted and the rules are pretty strict (incl lots of anti-oppression rules, no transphobia, no racism, etc), b/c it’s supposed to be a safe space…
Obv I can’t tell nebody specifically what’s said in it, and ppl will have to just take my word for it (I’m not lying :] ) but I’ve never seen any calls for violence on it… no threats, or even threat by proxy (i.e. “if this keeps up, one day women will snap and start shooting men”) or nething… no “this is why I want to kill men” or etc… (there’s occasionally angry rhetoric directed AT the person who abused or raped or assaulted us, but I think that’s pretty understandable :3 )
But there’s never been any sort of calls to violence, threats of violence, or nething… and nobody encourages others to, or nething in the comments… it’s all hugs and support… :3
Just in case ppl suspected this was going on in locked feminist comms… xD
Oh and again, I’m wondering about this comm… is membership merely a formality, or do they vet? Cuz if it’s supposed to be a locked safe space, I’m against sharing what’s in it or posting caps :
Thank you David from pulling them out of wherever they were.
Going off to eat now. 🙂
I will still say it IS possible for me to say you’re not a feminist. I will say it about Sarah Palin, but it’s not because I disagree iwth her; it’s because she specifically tries to say men are better than women, and specifically fights against the right to choose whether to carry a pregnancy to term. There IS a minimum standard of believing women have rights equal to a man. It’s a very easy standard, and it’s so extraordinarily rare to run into someone who claims to be a feminist and fails that standard that to the best of my knowledge, Palin is the only person with any major truck who’s done it. That’s it. It’s not unlike the standards to be a Christian. Ultimately it is “Believe Christ is your savior and the son of God (WTF that means)”. You can say someone who believes Larry is the Son of God isn’t a Christian because he fails that most basic segment, but so long as they meet it, they are a Christian.
@chocomintlipwax
“My point is … for all the criticisms I have about the site and about what Amanda says and how she deals with things and what she writes, I have never, ever, not once, in the history of my reading the site, ever ever EVER seen her suggest that violence might be okay, that we should go forcibly do anything to men, much less hurt them, that we should subjugate them, etc. etc. Never. Criticize? Yes. Insult? Sure. Ban? On occasion. But never suggest that there should be some kind of revolution where women drag men into the street and beat the shit out of them or kill them.”
It’s not like dear sweet Amanda merrily endorses all the laws feminists lobbied for that pretty much disproportionally shove men into the spa with metal bars. Or take their children and a whole bunch of other nasty stuff women don’t enjoy. Ahh Big Daddy, friend to women the world over. Laws that restrict men are good laws.
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@Victoria von Syrus
“Okay, Clarence, so what *is* the general MRM stance? On anything? Because they seem to talk about women an awful lot.
Feminists generally believe that women should have the same opportunities and expectations as men do. There’s room for a lot of disagreement and differing interpretations on priorities, causes and remedies – but there you go, a simple statement of feminist belief.”
Damn MRAs always talking about women while feminists never talk about men. Idiots! All women demand is an equal number of women in every boardroom, political office, in every endevour of science, medicine, math, philosophy, education, employment. Feminism equals equality damn it.
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@kristinmh
“Maybe it’s the pregnancy hormones, but I’m starting to think the MRM needs a bottle and a blankie.”
Don’t give those damn MRAs any ideas, They’ll be thinking of a bottle of booze to get some innocent drunk and a blankie to nail the inebriated waif on. Pigs!
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@Rutee
“It’s a tragedy he died. It doesn’t make the accusations false. Nor does asserting it blindly.”
All too true. First off he shouldn’t have put himself in a situation like that. More than likely he offed himself to escape the shame of the dirty deed he commited. One more example of men doing anything to escape accountability.
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@Debbie
“Question! What the hell does Amanda Marriote have to do with the violent Rhetoric of the MRA? Shes never had violent speech or advocated it she has nothing to do with this post….this is just another disgusting way for the MRA to derail the conversation for their own gain…..The Duke Lacrosse case has absolutly nothing to do with any of this!”
Thats right, feminist is the purest compliment a woman can call a man. It means women now accept you as a moral agent of good.
NWO makes a better straw-feminist-that-MRAs-hate than we do xD They should fight him b/c he’s exactly what they think we are! xD
NWO, we have had equal custody laws since 2006. It’s called Shared Parental Responsibilities Act. John Howard introduced it after lobbying from “Fathers Rights” mob.
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pubs/fle/
Now give it a rest!
Regarding the link, the proper response to someone posting such a vile thing like that Josh person is to say “that is never ever the solution. Get the fuck off this blog asshole.”
Pardon the language but ugh.
Awesome. Now, I’ll go find examples of women who have been murdered by their spouses/boyfriends. Hold on. There are LOTS and this will take awhile.
Your point is?
For Victoria Von Syrus who wrote that she was upset because she felt there was no definitive stance for MRM. Well Victoria here is a definition for the MGTOW movement,
GTOW (”Men Going Their Own Way”) is a way of life which refuses to defer to women in defining the worth of men. Instead, it focuses on positive male aspects, inviting men to go their own way in life.
I find this definition simplistic at best. Personally, MGTOW stands for men against feminist injustice through the law, employment, healthcare, parental rights and reproductive rights. To fight this injustice, some men have made a personal commitment not to adhere to the old traditional societal norms such as dating, marriage, children, and other commitments that society expects.
MGTOW men have realized that women through feminist indoctrination have lost most of their value as partners for companionship, dating, marriage and child rearing. MGTOW is simply non-violent civil disobedience against feminist injustice perpetuated against men.
only if going your own way = obsessing over and hating women.
Yeah, I’ve yet to see the MGTOW actually GTOW. Maybe in our grandchildren’s lifetime…
“injustice through the law,”
Men actually win about half the custody cases they fight. They just don’t fight as often. I’m not sure if this is apathy on their part, lawyers giving terrible advice (this is possible;), lawyers only fighting when they have about a 50% chance to win, or otherwise, but it is still not born out merely by custody cases.
Unless you mean sexual assault law, in which case I’m going to have a long laugh at your expense.
“employment”
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
“healthcare”
OH HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO
“parental rights”
See above.
“reproductive rights”
If it’s not your organ, you don’t have a say in the matter.
“civil disobedience”? You mean they are breaking the law somehow? How does that work?
Yeah, I’ve yet to see the MGTOW actually GTOW.
I was gonna say! How many times can we women repeat that we really REALLY support your MGTOW endeavors? I’ll tell you again; please go for it! Any time now. Seriously, we’ll be sorry. We’ll cry soooo much. It will probably totally teach us our lesson, and we’ll be so sad we didn’t lower our standards… I promise… :p