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antifeminism armageddon homophobia men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misandry misogyny MRA terrorism threats

More violent talk, more excuses for terrorism, this time from the inaptly named Happy Bachelors Forum

Try pointing the finger at yourself, for once.

On the ironically named Happy Bachelors forum, the regular poster who calls himself khankrumthebulgar – and whose real name is Randall Joseph Shake — has been complaining about those of us who’ve pointed out that much MRA and MGTOW rhetoric sounds all too similar to the rhetoric of Norwegian terrorist murderer Anders Breivik. In response to Hugo Schwyzer’s post on the topic at the Good Men Project, he wrote:

 This smacks to me of extreme desperation. As they are trying to draw us into a response. They should hear Crickets chirping. … they are in need of traffic, controversy some off the wall unhinged response. When they receive none, it simply means we will not waste the oxygen to answer these absurd and insane accusations. No evidence exists that the MRA or MRM is in any way connected to the Norwegian gunman. IF we were there would be dozens of dead Feminists by now. There is none, hence this is a weak and pathetic attempt to incite violence and is irresponsible on their part. …

If such violence were to happen. After such outrageous accusations, it is Hugo Schwyzer and the Good Menz Project who is financially liable for stoking and promoting extremism in the hopes of generating a violent response. The blood will be on their hands not ours.

You will notice that this argument is identical to that of Angry Harry: if an extremist commits an act of terrorism or violence, don’t blame him or his extremist ideology; blame the people who pissed him off. Taken to its logical extreme, this specious argument would mean blaming the Jews for the Holocaust; after all, they’re the ones who got Hitler so worked up in the first place.

It seems to me that if you don’t want people to associate you with terrorists, you should probably stop talking like terrorists, referring casually to “dozens of dead feminists” and trying to blame the enemy in advance for any violence that comes from your side.

Also, you should probably stop making comments like the following, which were posted in response to Amanda Marcotte’s recent post on Misogyny and Terrorism. The first one, from spocksdisciple, a board moderator, fantasized about a violent backlash that would put women in general and feminists in particular in their supposed place:

[T]he backlash against feminism and it’s misandry will be both awe inspiring and terrifying at the same time.

Modern radical feminism is doomed, any woman sprouting these kinds of statements after the backlash won’t last very long, people and especially men are growing angrier everyday and all these whining losers in the feminist movement is doing to kicking a sleeping bear even harder.

Feminism is so done that women will be lucky if any man bothers to even look at them other then as a piece of meat, the days of the 19th century are going to come back where women either know their place or they’ll suffer the consequences of their actions and arrogance, big daddy gov’t isn’t going to be around to protect the rights of women to act like bitches.

And you probably shouldn’t talk about burning down buildings with people inside them, as khankrumthebulgar (that is, Randall Joseph Shake) does in this comment:

Feminists will be treated like the French Nobility was during the French Revolution. There will be a payback to these Evil Bitches. … As to the Good Mangina Project, they are our enemies. Burn the building to the ground with them in it.

Is he literally talking about burning down a building, or is he speaking metaphorically? In the wake of a tragedy that involved a man literally gunning down the children of his leftist and feminist enemies, khankrumthebulgar’s comments are indefensible either way.

Let me reiterate: these are posts from men who are angry that people have linked them in any way to the Norwegian terrorist. Are they really this lacking in self-awareness, or are they so used to talking in an environment where violent comments about feminists are so common and accepted that they don’t even realize the irony?

I don’t know, and I don’t care. I just wish that those in the MRA and MGTOW movements who are bothered by this kind of talk – and I know there are some who are – would actually step up and declare this sort of shit out of bounds. I’m not holding my breath.

Note: The Happy Bachelors forum is members-only, so the links to the forum won’t work if you’re not a member. Here are screen shots of all the forum comments mentioned in this post, in order. Click to see the full-sized image. I edited several of the comments, but indicated all removed material with ellipses. As you will see the edits did not change the meaning of what was said.

khankrumthebulgar gives his real name

khankrumthebulgar on Hugo Schwyzer (just the portion of the comment that is from him; the rest quotes Schwyzer’s post).

spocksdisciple comment

khankrumthebulgar’s “burn the building” comment

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kristinmh
kristinmh
9 years ago

Samuel, I can’t say I completely agree with this article: http://www.slate.com/id/2281146/ – I think it’s an absurd bit of over-dramatic pedantry – but I must say that reading your posts would be much easier if you were to use a space or two after periods. Doesn’t matter how many, but at least one would be nice. Or do you GYOW in terms of typography as well?

And everything Holly said, too.

Papr1ka
Papr1ka
9 years ago

Well, maybe I’m missing something, but I believe that in order to access this happy and harmonious section of HB, I need to be a registered member. The only page that I seem to be able to view is the “Best of”, which is eight pages of mostly complaining about/ranting about/discussing women. And…uh…I have better things to do with my time than set up an account on a forum that I’m not welcome on, just to take a look at what it is you’re talking about. So it looks like I’ll just have to take your word for it.

That doesn’t answer my question, though. You alleged that there are all these MRA/MGTOW blogs that don’t talk about women at all, it’s all about fellowship and male bonding. So…show me an MRA/MGTOW blog where there aren’t these angry/bitter articles about everything that’s wrong with women. Happy Bachelors obviously doesn’t fit the bill. If the majority its self-purported “best” articles are mostly rants about why women are so awful, and that’s the bit that even non-members are allowed to see, then there does seem to be a negative fixation on women of sorts, or some desire to give the impression of a negative fixation. After all, they so readily flaunt these anger/misery-filled articles.

I’m all for men bonding, pursuing their interests, gaining emotional fulfillment, going on retreats, going to the beach, going fishing, singing opera, riding horses, getting motorcycles, whittling, learning an instrument, eating green eggs and ham in a box, with a fox, on a train, on a plane, here, there and everywhere. I would recommend eating green eggs that are made green with the use of food coloring rather than eggs that have gone green due to natural circumstance. Just a suggestion, though.

But I think what we’re saying is, go ahead and do it. We’re not trying to stop you. I guess it just confuses some of us, because reading some of these blogs, it’s almost like some of these people should be called, “Men Threatening to Go Their Own Way”, or “Men on Their Way to Going Their Own Way.” There’s so often this tone that implies, “if women don’t shape up soon, I actually will give up and go my own way, then they’ll be sorry!”, or going on about how evil women are with a “This is why I’m going my own way!” finishing note. As if women are going to get all up in arms that some guy who never particularly cared for them anyway has decided to remove or consider removing himself from the dating pool. It doesn’t seem very cheerful, perhaps a bit spiteful. I mean, look at MarkyMark, or the aptly named Angry Harry. I understand that everyone needs to vent sometimes, but…these guys seem like they almost never have anything good to say, and what they do say tends to be complaints about women. It gives the impression that their lives are kind of depressing, full of nothing but frustration and sorrow. From what I’ve seen, a good day for MarkyMark is one in which a new Jersey Shore is airing, or when he has a conversation with a woman and she doesn’t like, call upon her flying monkey minions to pull out his hair and throw spoiled fruit at him or something.

So please, go your own way. We aren’t going to try to stop you. We’re not going to follow you around and beg you to marry us, or win our bread for us, or have babies with us, or give us half your money, or tell you not to get that Harley, or whatever.

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

Papr1ka I will say this.I guess as a human being I am flawed in that I have a need to respond and substantiate that the MGTOW perspective. I guess I am one of the weaker MGTOW men (lol). The majority of MGTOW men who live a life of avoiding women and believe in gender separatism, you do not hear about. These guys are not on the internet. They have gone their own way. They leave relatively unobtrusive lives.They go to work,pay taxes,have hobbies like all human beings but they have given up on women and believe in gender separatism. Some live quiet lives .Some become spiritual ( I am not saying become monks,(although some MGTOW do). These men do not are choosing to become disciplined,celibate and you can sublimate the sexual energy and it is spiritually helpful.You do not hear about these guys. I know one friend about 38, was an investent banker, handsome,successful.well rounded but for whatever reason he got hurt by women and actually joined some type of monastery.Like a male nun who renounces marriage.Think of nuns. Although I do not hear from my monk friend much, I spoke with him like 6 months ago he was at peace very content.So you do not hear about these MGTOW guys,maybe your right maybe some guys are threatening to gtow.After all the MGTOW is not monolithic like most movements. Some MGTOW men may actually date women or still want do date and may be just “threatening ” as you say.But the men who have MGTOW really you do not hear about.The lives they lead are called Ghosting like my monk friend. Someone here made fun of my typing. Well sorry, as for my typing,Perhaps I need a secretary. So I am not the best typer. Just my two cents.Bye

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

Lastly, my final comment I promise(your all sick of me I know). The best book to read as recommended on a quintessential MGTOW male is Iron John by Robert Bly. Also Fire in the belly by Samuel Kean.Women here please read these books.You can get them cheap paperback online. These books just deal with mens psyche written by men to men. They are well written books.Thanx

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

What good would reading a book do me?

I could read and read and I’d still be female.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

And they say I’M hard to read xD

So wait, cis women don’t choose to be born evil… so does that mean I DID choose to be evil? o_O Or am I a traitor.. or what? xD

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

You’re clearly some kind of evil, Ami.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Oh! Btw, to Samuel and all the MGTOW, a brilliant writer named Cal Y. Pigia has a solution to your woes about the biological evil of women 😀

http://www.literotica.com/s/shemales-an-appreciation

http://www.literotica.com/s/shemales-an-appreciation-pt-02

http://www.literotica.com/s/shemales-an-appreciation-pt-03

Shemales (by which term, as I use it, I mean “chicks with dicks,” that is, male-to-female transsexuals who, having otherwise completely feminized themselves, opt to retain their male genitals rather than to undergo sex-reassignment surgery) offer an opportunity to even more drastically separate women—or man-made women (the impulse to create the perfect woman, which is to say a man-made woman, remains as strong, or stronger, today as it was when it inspired Pygmalion to carve Galatea)—from her biological, or reproductive, function. By dispensing with the very possibilities of impregnation, conception, pregnancy, and childbirth, men, in fashioning for themselves shemales as sexual playmates, reduce such man-made women purely to the vehicles of their own pleasure (and, perhaps, domestic service). As I argue in part one of this series, divorcing females—or, rather, shemales—from procreation has proven very popular among men, because the impossibility of impregnating them relieves men of the burdens of fatherhood while, at the same time, allowing them the pleasures of sex.

Shemales, unable to bear children, offer other pleasures beyond those which they provide by the use of their anuses, rectums, mouths, penises, and hands. They are also, even more than women (who, after all, can be impregnated), vehicles by which, and upon which, men can express the superiority that they have claimed to have until a century or so ago (and often continue to claim to have, even if only to themselves). By relegating shemales to the role of being but providers of sexual pleasure (and, perhaps, domestic service), men, both symbolically (or socially) and literally (or sexually) elevate themselves to the superior status exhibited by their own power and authority in society and the relative powerlessness and submissiveness of the vanquished “other,” the shemale herself.

In two previous installments, I considered reasons as to why shemales are so damned hot. One reason for their erotic appeal, I ventured, is their freeing of men from the responsibilities of fatherhood. Since shemales, by nature, cannot be impregnated, men can use them as they please, without fear that, because of a brief dalliance, they will be called upon to surrender their freedom for the rest of their lives. There are hundreds of thousands of shemales in the world, many of whom are as beautiful as any genetic woman and many more of whom are at least as attractive as the average woman. They may not have vaginas, but their anuses are perfectly suitable substitutes. Indeed, they may be superior, because they are tighter, do not menstruate, and cannot be impregnated. All they lack is lubricant, which can be supplied, easily enough, through applied science, or technology, in the form of a tube of anal lube.

Another reason for the popularity of shemales, I suggested, is that they are similar enough to men (while, at the same time, being different enough from men) to facilitate free and easy communication between minds that understand the male (and the masculine) mindset.

>_>

<_<

This could be a rly terrible idea actually.. I might create a whole new generation of chasers -_- xD

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

Ami, lol I do not know who you are Ami but Lol. I am not into shemales. But seriously, when I said the MGTOW movement is not monolithic, it is true. Some men that “give up women” become celibate monks or some type of spiritual tradition,.Some go abroad to met Asian women.There is a movement called “Boycott Western Women” and a movement called “happier abroad(google it) where men go overseas to meet women that is going their own way for them. A small few( I know just a very few men) who become gay.Ami, it is kinda weird and odd I know me saying it. But a small few radical feminists become lesbian. Some mgtow men find fellowship in the gay community as far as gay bars,gay retreats.These guys are heterosexual mgtow but have gay men as friends and in gay bars and gay places there are no women to deal with.Finally there is some MGTOW that are on a “marriage strike”(google it). The have sworn off the institution of marriage that is going their own way.Yes I know you females on this board do not care if we go our own way anyway but it will ina few years be a crisis. If even a chunk a small chunk 10% 20% of men have removed themselves out of the gene pool there will be less men to choose from. Yes there may be still more men available now than women in the dating scene perhaps, but it is equaling out fom even a few years ago. Even a minority chunk of men have removed themselves from marriage,dating, dealings with women means less available men and more competition amongst women who decide to still want men.Finally less marriages less grandchildren this could be a good think there is way way too many people in our world anyway(even in the West like the USA is overpopulated). But still it will have an impact. In conclusion, if you some of you women claimto read mens blogs like spearhead reddit -post on these blogs what you responded to me in this post. MGTOW is not monolithic. Some sites do not welcome women, some do. I admit some of you have valid points, but on sites like the spearhead I rarely hear women post.However, on feminist sites that allow men to post many men post.We men matter too. With that written, I’m outa here.Peace y’all.

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

P.S> I do not know you Ami, I didn’t read all your shemale links but I will peruse them. It is just I am not into she males. No offense.Celibacy for this boy, not shemales Ami lol.Take care

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

10 or 20 percent?

Dude, there’s like 10 or 20 of you guys total.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

That’s okay, baby, I don’t think she was dying for your love.

…I don’t think anyone’s dying for your love.

…and thus the key flaw in your scheme.

Rutee
Rutee
9 years ago

‘shemale’ is not the correct term. The correct term is trans women, you cissexist fuck. You want sympathy while being amazingly hateful? You’re an idiot.

“here is a movement called “Boycott Western Women” and a movement called “happier abroad(google it) where men go overseas to meet women that is going their own way for them. ”
I’m aware of your group’s intersection of racism and sexism. I think we all are, here.

“Yes I know you females on this board do not care if we go our own way anyway but it will ina few years be a crisis.”
In your dreams, perhaps. I’m not going to say in my nightmares; Any moron who would participate in such a strike is too fucking stupid to be worth dating, personally.

“Yes there may be still more men available now than women in the dating scene perhaps, but it is equaling out fom even a few years ago.”
Unevidenced bullshit is unevidenced.

“I admit some of you have valid points, but on sites like the spearhead I rarely hear women post.”
That would be because the number of women who are complete misogynists is very low. Is the fact that black people don’t generally post on stormfront evidence that they have valid points?

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

xD

I think he missed the point of my post xD And I think the trans comm is desperately hoping he stays w/ the stance he has now xD

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

The reason women don’t post on the Spearhead is that even when MRA women post, they get downvoted and yelled at to leave (at least from my exp reading there xD )

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

The marriage strike is such a joke. Seriously, when can we start seeing its effects? ‘Cause I’m spending a small fortune every year on attending weddings, planning showers, throwing engagement parties, and the like. Hell, I don’t advertise and I end up shooting a handful of weddings a year, strictly on word-of-mouth.

The idea that MGTOW is in some way affecting the “dating scene” is even more ridiculous. A handful of guys on the internet claim that they want social gender separation and actually think the idea is catching on?

Please.

Go outside. Look around. The rest of the world had not gotten the memo.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

When I read about men going their own way, I always think of the Fleetwood Mac song “Go your own way”. Perhaps all five men in the movement could make it their theme song.

Jill the Spinster
Jill the Spinster
9 years ago

I think MGTOW consists of

– riding a motorbike (cause at the most you can only carry 1 passenger), but then these guys usually ride with other men so they are not actually going their own way?
– Sitting alone at a computer posting to MRA sites
– going on sex holidays to Thailand?

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Yes I know you females on this board do not care if we go our own way anyway but it will ina few years be a crisis. If even a chunk a small chunk 10% 20% of men have removed themselves out of the gene pool there will be less men to choose from.

Naw, I’mma just move to China or India where they are having an actual crisis because they have a skewed sex ratio. And then roll around in a pile of men. Or something.

Actually I’ll probably just keep dating the men near me, ’cause that other plan would be a hell of a commute. And even if 100% of MRAs went their own way it wouldn’t affect me because I wouldn’t date any of you anyways; I like my men like I like my coffee (not full of douche.) In fact it would be awesome, because it would clear up some space for men who actually like women and weed out the guys who don’t. Timesaver! Total win-win for this “female.” 😀

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

Aha!
Samuel has discovered the true cause of the great depression of the 1930’s! Remember the ‘lost generation’ of the first world war? Look at the war memorials in small towns – they sometimes list more than 10% of the local single men. Listen to the stories your grandparents tell you, quite a few of those who came back didn’t marry. So, according to Samuel, a lack of marriageable men leads to disaster, hence the depression!
The man is a unique genius 🙂

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

Listen everyone I will say this. My comments seem to have created controversy and offended some women here, This was not my original intention.I am not looking for female sympathy. All I am saying is that some men are just angry these days. Some men are choosing to stay single,stay solo.See, I truly believe today at least in the USA, that Women do not NEED men.As a result of feminism, There are now more women enrolled in colleges than men. Girls generally perform better than girls in school these days.A hardworking women can do whatever a man can do, and be economically independent and support herself/Moreover, even to get a child a woman can now have a baby in a lab/Technology has created his.Women do not even need to get married anymore or even be in a relationship with a man anymore.Women can now be self supporting and independent and have a child without getting married. Women do not need Men. It probably is a good thing for you feministst. All I am stating , is many men were raised that they NEED a woman to take care of the cook clean, nurture,domesticate that men are some stupid fools fat on the couch watching TV as depicted on some sitcoms.In reality, mgtow men are discovering men can cook .cook, clean ,nurture themselves. We are not fools we do NOT NEED WOMEN.Men can take care of themselves. Lastly, many men are learning with discipline, the sex drive can be controlled.Through meditation,spirituality, transferring sexual energy to hobbies like art and music. When sexual energy is controlled by men in some way a man becomes empowered and more mature and wise as opposed to some fool sexual pig with only one thing on our mind, sex,How untrue.Many men are choosing celibacy, and are learning to have control over or sex drive,

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

Samuel: Well, it’s refreshing that some men are coming to accept the fact that they are not getting a butler, nanny, cook and fuck-slave. With time, I hope they will realize they are not entitled to a servant, either.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Dude, seriously, who cares?

There have always been men and women who choose not to have romantic entanglements. Big whoop. I son’t think you’re seeking sympathy; I think you’re seeking praise. And nobody cares. Go. Go your own way. Why all this talking, and explaining, and justifying, and allusions to who thinks you can’t cook, or control your sex drive? Nobody is offended that you don’t want to be involved with women.

Congratulations! You’ve gone your own way. So go.

Via con Dios!

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@Amused
“Well, it’s refreshing that some men are coming to accept the fact that they are not getting a butler, nanny, cook and fuck-slave. With time, I hope they will realize they are not entitled to a servant, either.”

I hope its equally refreshing that women can no longer expect to get an ATM, repairman, gardner, plumber, securityman, emotional supportline, leadership, dildo, friend, lover.

When ya give nothing, don’t expect anything in return. Kinda like an acquaintance who fucks ya is what you’ll get in return for giving nothing. Enjoy!

Papr1ka
Papr1ka
9 years ago

Samuel: I am happy for men who are able to go their own way and actually leave behind the emotional baggage that they have developed with regard to feminism/women/society/whargarble. I just feel as if the MGTOW bloggers are being a bit cognitively dishonest in claiming that they have gone their own way, or are going their own way, but then continue to have a seemingly unhealthy level of anger, resentment, fixation on or toward women. Particularly when the male blogger in question seems to devote his blog’s near-entire focus on such things. It can lead one to think, ‘If you claim to be moving on from having anything to do with women then…go, already and be content’.

I can sort of agree with you, when you said that men are or were often raised to be a little helpless in the domestic area. I don’t really see it so much now, most of the guys I know or am acquainted with can take care of themselves alright, but I have seen some for whom going from living with their parent(s) to living on their own was more difficult of a transition than it had to be. I don’t think that children, regardless of gender, should be raised completely ignorant of how to cook, clean, and complete simple household tasks. Unfortunately, I think we missed an opportunity back in the 60’s when more feminist mindsets were being adopted. We were ushering girls out of home ec classes, when really we should have brought boys in to join them and send a message, that cooking, cleaning, and being domestic are not gender-oriented tasks. I think Anthony Bourdain said something to that effect in one of his books as well.

Joanna
9 years ago

“In reality, mgtow men are discovering men can cook .cook, clean ,nurture themselves. We are not fools we do NOT NEED WOMEN.”

But…what about love and companionship? There’s a lot more to a relationship than depending on gender oriented skills.

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

Pap1ka I can see your point. If you are on a mgtow blog andd all it is about is defaming and offending women then that is not proper. However, as I mentioned I think men are angry and men have a tough time expressing their emotions,It is not what you say but how you make a point. Yes some women here have stated that men should just go their own way and it is hypocritical to say your boycotting women and then write about them on a blog.Like I said the mens movement is relatively new Papr1ka, Many men for years have not learned how to express their anger constructively without offending .Many men have died young from heart attacks from stuffing their felling or being rageful,Hopefull Papr1ka as the Mens movement grows men will learn how to express their anger at women without offending.Also maybe a lot of these men( not all) are “threatening” to go their own way or have just gotten newly divorced or a painful breakup and are angry and raw. As for me, I believe in order to effect change, any extreme movement must deal with the other side. I meam women are half the population, you cannot avoid women. So some mgtow men will engage in a civil debate and dialogue with feminists(both female and male) to possibly effect change,I happen to be interested in gender and sex roles and find the topic interesting.I realize you cannot debate with anyone screaming and emotionally rageful.Feministst and MRA’a should debate in a civil way without screaming or shaming at each other. We can agree to disagree. Lastly.Papr1ka you made a good point that men have not been raised with good deomestic skills, well thank you. I implore women (feminists and non feminists)to encourage young men to learn domestic skills so if they choose to not marry.become divorced or widowed they wont feel helpless. Papr1ka, there are some mrm websites that are more moderate and allow women to post(just google). Post on these sites how you feel. Maybe you can change many men who are threatening to abandon women minds. If more and more men choose to boycott women and marriage it could have disastrous effects on our families and society. Maybe some women even feminists can influence some mgtow men with the right communication skills can change mgtow mens minds and they will not boycott women and marriage. Who really knows? I’m just being hopeful Papr1ka, since this can be a very depressing topic dealing with the gender war and marriage crsis in our country thse days.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Samuel, I don’t think very many men have joined you and your compatriots in this boycott. Certainly not enough for women to feel the effects. If you have to point out that you’re boycotting, it’s probably not particularly effective.

And, really, if some man feels that being with women doesn’t work for him, why should women try to change his mind?

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

Nobinyahu, You know what, who cares in the end? You quote” And, if some man feels that being with women doesn’t work for him, why should women try to change his mind?” . Well, I guess your right.Listen, I happen to be off from work and happen to come across this website and found this dialogue interesting.I as an MGTOW male do not spend every day every minute on the internet criticizing women. I work, I have a life. However, since I rarely talk to women besides work and in public places, and I try to avoid women, I felt I wanted to dialogue or debate today. I now will end this topic(I really mean it this time,lol I am now tired and have to get up for work tomorrow morning, We men will go our own way. You women as Nobinayamu stated don’t need to or really want to I guess change our minds.This is why Gender separatism is best. As Nobinayamu implied women don’t care about men.All I can say as Holly said when she said our MGTOW movement is small/ Look at the MGTOW/manosphere these days.Movements such as MGTOW< Happier abroad,boycott American women,Marriage strike,Happer abroad. More and more younger men these days are choosing not to marry until the divorce and child cusotdy laws change. The manosphere is not 10 or 2o men. My first cousin who I bunked into recently and is in the wedding industry stated weddings are declining. Now I now the economy has to do with it also but I am stating that this mens mgtow movement is growing and is some sort of backlash movement. It will impact socirty and gender relations.Nite Nite all, I'm going to bed,

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

No, Samuel, I never said that women don’t care about men. I never even implied such a thing. I said that women don’t care if a particular man chooses to disassociate himself from women because he doesn’t want to be involved with them romantically. Big difference.

You don’t want to be involved with women, and I think that’s terrific. I wish you the best of luck and have absolutely no desire to change your mind. Enjoy yourself.

I, and all the other people, who value our friendships and romantic relationships with members of the “opposite” sex will continue to go our own way as well.

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

On marriage rates, from the ABS:
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/1D63A0059ECDFDCFCA2577ED00146123?opendocument

In 2009, the crude marriage rate was 5.5 marriages per 1,000 estimated resident population, compared with 7.0 marriages per 1,000 estimated resident population in 1989.

Between 1989 and 2001, the crude marriage rate declined from 7.0 to 5.3. However, after a slight increase between 2001 and 2004, there has since been little variation.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/91f72cb52e908514ca25709f0000a6a8/1d63a0059ecdfdcfca2577ed00146123/Body/0.33C!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

Are you counting de facto as well as married?

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

If women don’t NEED men, and men don’t NEED women …doesn’t that just mean that men and women are interacting and dating only for the sheer voluntary pleasure of one another’s company? Heterosexual couples can now be held together purely by joy and affection, not financial or biological necessity, right?

Not exactly a tragic state of affairs in my book!

As a woman who doesn’t “need” men, the men in my life can be reassured that I am with them only because I love them, not because I am using them for some purpose. And I’m likewise only interested in men who don’t “need” me either — I want them to want me, and adore me, and enjoy my company, but I also want them to be autonomous functional adults just like I am, who choose to spend time with me. That’s free and feminist love.

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

bravo Bagelsan!

darksidecat
9 years ago

Women don’t need men per se, nor vice versa. But lots of humanity is in those groups. If you just go about your day, encountering people, functioning, you are going to run into both men and women. And some of them will have connections you need or that you love. Maybe not romantic ones. But it isn’t a generic “woman” or “man” you need, but that person. I don’t love or need some generic “sister”, there are plenty of people who live just fine without sisters, but I love and need my sisters, those two people, specifically (and my brother, ditto). Making sure that none of the people you ever love or connect with are women (or, in the other case, men), takes a lot of work at creating exclusion.

Joanna
9 years ago

The problem with MRA’s or MGTOW’s is that they seem to not understand or are biased about women in general. As darksidecat said, it’s an awful lot of work to avoid women when they’re 50% of the population. Avoid romantic pursuits maybe, but don’t avoid women altogether. Regard them as a fellow human beings rather than an alien species. If you let women into your life just a teensy bit, even if it’s only at work or whatever, you might be able to understand them a little more and become a little more relaxed around them. It will take a bit of time to fully trust women depending on how far along the MGTOW scale you are. I have a lot of male friends whom I’ve seen get hurt by women and they just pick themselves up after without the need to hate all women everywhere. People get hurt all the time, regardless of gender. It’s just one of those things in life. I know I sound like a bit of a doucehbag but guys don’t lose faith. All this woman hate is so unnecessary.

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

Oh, and Samuel? A man should have “domestic skills” not in case he gets widowed or divorced — a man should have “domestic skills” and do domestic work, period. And don’t be cute: laundering your socks and underwear, taking your shirts to the dry cleaner’s, vacuuming the carpet and making a bowl of spaghetti with tomato sauce isn’t exactly rocket science; “I am not doing shit around the house because I don’t know how” is the usual way in which traditionalist men get their overworked, exasperated and sleep-deprived wives to cave in and fucking do everything themselves. Learn how to take care of yourself and others the same way women do — but getting off your ass and doing some work. Leaving all the domestic chores to your wife is a recipe for divorce. A wife isn’t a servant. Sure, a newly married woman who hasn’t yet been worked like a farm horse may be proud that she doesn’t keep track of who takes out the garbage most often — but beyond the honeymoon, having to wipe a grown man’s ass and wait on him hand and foot as if he were an infant gets very annoying fast; and the unfairness of having to put in a second shift after a day of hard work while your spouse puts his feet up with perfect entitlement becomes readily apparent.

And incidentally: this isn’t a way to treat one’s mother, either. I’ve known young men who regard their mothers as unpaid hotel maids and cooks, and it’s despicable. Your mother probably won’t divorce you, but still: one of the most disgusting things you can do is take advantage of your relationships and the love someone else has for you to sit on your ass and do nothing. And so, married or not: clean up after yourself; make breakfast; and don’t be a leech. I don’t see what’s so confusing about that.

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

NWOSlave: There is no WGTOW movement. Enough said. Also: lackey service isn’t compensation for friendship. Proper compensation for friendship is friendship. Your belief that a lifetime of laundering dirty underwear is “payment” for a man saying something nice once in a while once again demonstrates what a fucked up view of relationships you have. “Leadership”, my foot.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Clarence: It helps make the case against them and Amanda Marcotte is one of their biggest and easiest targets yet even though it would seem to cost them nothing to repudiate her, they don’t.

Cost nothing? You aren’t asking, in that sentence for an agreement that the Duke Team was innoncent and some were overzealous in their defense of the prosecution. You are asking for “Feminists” to say Amanda Marcotte isn’t acceptable. That her style of feminism is somehow wrong.

Who will be next? Because that’s the way you are playing the game right now. You aren’t really disavowing Breivik. His use of cut and paste doesn’t mean he didn’t believe all that. It actually is more supportive of the idea he was being shaped by MRA philosophy than it would be had he done all the writing himself (I can see the arguments on Angry Harry, and Peter Nolan and The Spearhead now, look, the feminists are so evil and pervasive that this guy, in Norway came to the same conclusions independently. What he did was bad, but it only shows that if feminism isn’t stopped more men will be driven to this sort of behavior because of feminism.

But you have this hair up your ass about it?ch so that when people in this very thread say they disagree with her that’s ignored, or dismissed with the very sort of goalpost moving I was alluding to (you don’t want her comments on Duke disavowed, you want her completely dismissed, which isn’t what you are asking for Angry Harry. We are supposed to merely say these words were untoward. He was, “venting”).

Why? I suspect it’s because she has some traction, and you don’t. Because the things she believes in (equality for all) your movement doesn’t. I don’t demand perfection in my allies. I’m not going to throw them under the bus for making mistakes. But I don’t think the comparison to saying someone is probably guilty of a crime compares to killing 76 people, to pr SO muove a political point in the hope of causing an armed revolution to wipe out feminists and immigrants.

That you do, speaks volumes.

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

Joanna wrote”The problem with MRA’s or MGTOW’s is that they seem to not understand or are biased about women in general. As darksidecat said, it’s an awful lot of work to avoid women when they’re 50% of the population. Avoid romantic pursuits maybe, but don’t avoid women altogether. Regard them as a fellow human beings rather than an alien species. If you let women into your life just a teensy bit, even if it’s only at work or whatever, you might be able to understand them a little more and become a little more relaxed around them. It will take a bit of time to fully trust women depending on how far along the MGTOW scale you are. I have a lot of male friends whom I’ve seen get hurt by women and they just pick themselves up after without the need to hate all women everywhere. People get hurt all the
time, regardless of gender. It’s just one of those things in life. I know I sound like a bit of a doucehbag but guys don’t lose faith. All this woman hate is so unnecessary.

I saw your comment this morning and I was pleasantly “shocked. I expected more mocking and criticism of my stance as an MGTOW. However, Joanna you actually have a point”all this women hate is so unnecessary”. Jonnaa as an MGTOW male it suprised me . You said “guys don’t lose faith”. Well I believe many men (especially a growing number of younger men) are so bitter at women.Many men today are bitter at the institution of marriage, bitter at being portrayed as sex crazed pigs who cannot cook clean and sits on the couch as a fat couch potato. Joanna, many men today DESPERATELY NEED TO KEEP THE FAITH. Other than that life is hopeless and depressing). Joanna I really did not expect a feminist to be supportive of an mgtow male. I am new to all this gender dialogue on the internet but perhaps if feminist women who want to offer some support and encourage mgtow men should post on blogs so men can actually see that some feminists understand them as opposed to criticizing us,mocking us, we just want to be understood. Lastly, Joanna with your words to us mgtow guys “keep the faith”, it may have an impact if you and other feminist women let men know you understand us(even if you dont agree with us). See some women here think many mgtow men are only “threatening” to go mgtow,Well maybe there is truth to that. The men who have fully gtow generally lead quiet lives called ghosting, these men have dropped out of society and marriage. But for many young men if they heard a feminist understand them and not mock them they may change their minds and not go their own way and date women and get married. Joanna, letting mgtow guys know to “keep the faith” is important. Men need to keep the faith. Many men would be shocked to hear a feminist encourage them and tell to keep faithful. The mgtow men will be also pleased to hear encouragement, hope, and support from feminists as opossed to mocking. Guys need hope thee days.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Samuel: All we are asking for as MGTOW men is Gender Separatism. If MGTOW men are bitter at women, and even some feminists are bitter at men, We MGTOW say let us separate.

Who’s stopping you? I mean it. If that’s what you want to do how are “women” preventing you?

Personally, I own my own Architectural firm and am not some stupid male pig buffoonn, and many other MGTOW men are successful,handsome, not “creepy” guys like womes say.

This is a bit different. Being good-looking /= being free of creepiness. Having a business /= not being stupid (as regards personal interaction), or being a “male pig buffoon. I am not saying these things are true of you, but merely pointing out they are not related.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Victoria von Syrus: Point of Information: Marcotte’s views on the conception of Jesus isn’t blasphemy, it’s heresy. It’s common for people to think the one is the other, but blasphemy is actually pretty rare, and hard to do.

It’s a pretty hard thing to commit, actually. Not only are the requirements for blasphemy sort of strange, but the modern mindset isn’t geared toward it.

But I digress.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

Samuel, I don’t know about other feminists, but I do not want to go on MGTOW websites. I understand what you’re saying about feminists reaching out to the angry, bitter men on those sites, but I do not believe it is necessary for us to do so. For one thing, simply being a woman on a MGTOW message board will open oneself up to a barrage of insults and verbal abuse, let alone describing oneself as a feminist. That is a situation where I don’t want to take the higher ground and be insulted while I implore men to keep the faith. I don’t want to go down to that level and be rude either, taking the lower ground. I think the best option is to ignore MGTOW. They can live in the world like the rest of us, look around, and realize women are normal people with strengths and flaws just like men. It is not the job of feminists to fix MGTOW. That’s something they need to do for themselves.

I’m not trying to be insulting here either, but I do think you are overestimating the size and effect of your movement. When I explained the philosophy of MGTOW to my husband, he said he never heard of it, but that it sounds like the men doing that are overreacting to some bad encounters they had with women in the past. I’ve had terrible boyfriends before, but I never decided to swear off on all men. I just picked myself up after bad breakups, and learned from the experience to help me find a better man for me.

If men are choosing to stay single because that’s what makes them happy, good for them. Not everyone wants or needs to be in LTRs. If they are choosing to stay single just to spite women, then that is not going to be that effective. They are unlikely to get much of a reaction from women other than indifference.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

Many men would be shocked to hear a feminist encourage them and tell to keep faithful.

That might be because “many” men conflate feminism with traditionalism, if not completely reversing them or embracing traditionalism for the ways in which it benefits and privileges men while blaming feminism for the ways in which traditionalism does harm to men.

Many men today are bitter at the institution of marriage, bitter at being portrayed as sex crazed pigs who cannot cook clean and sits on the couch as a fat couch potato

Portrayals spurred on by traditionalist thought, as Amused pointed out earlier, “I am not doing shit around the house because I don’t know how” is the usual way in which traditionalist men get their overworked, exasperated and sleep-deprived wives to cave in and fucking do everything themselves. “Many” men today are bitter at the institution of marriage because they want the benefits (to men) of traditionalist gender roles minus the negatives (to men) of being in keeping with traditionalist gender roles.
Although feminism has and does focus more on the harms that traditionalism has done and continues to do to women, that doesn’t mean that feminists don’t recognize the harms that traditionalism has done and continues to do to men. But feminism cannot lessen the harms that traditionalism does to men without lessening some of the benefits it affords men, because the harms and benefits are intertwined.

Samuel
Samuel
9 years ago

Kendra I do see a lot anti male comments on feminist blogs. In fact some feminist blogs do not allow men to post or join. That is not fair either Kendra. I do not as well like you want to go on an opposite gender blog and be insulted. I hear what you saying.How about feminists who support some issues that mgtow men/mrm men like a few here have said they support men starting their own blog ? This way some many men in the manosphere may be enlightened that some feminists support some mens issues and care about mens equality and welfare. Most of the feminist blogs I have seen on the web are hateful towards men.Some call us dogs or pigs.
However on the other hand as Kendra said”If men are choosing to stay single because that’s what makes them happy, good for them. Not everyone wants or needs to be in LTRs. If they are choosing to stay single just to spite women, then that is not going to be that effective. They are unlikely to get much of a reaction from women other than indifference”
Okay Kendra if that is what you say Men will go their own way, and women will go their own way. I doubt most of these men would care. Many men have “bailed out” on women and now lead quiet, “ghost” like, single lives and you never jear about these guys.These guys have gone their own way because of indifference to them. These ghost guys do not go on the internet. They were normal,successful well rounded,, heterosexual men who got hurt by women and dropped out(like my friend who became a monk). In a way What a waste? these could have been good boyfriends and husbands for females.Nobody cared,.What a waste these guys?(I say this because I have heard a few(not all) women stae about handsome gay men tongue in cheek “what a waste”). The same can be said about these mgtow, what a waste? Thanks Kendra

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@Amused
“NWOSlave: There is no WGTOW movement. Enough said. Also: lackey service isn’t compensation for friendship. Proper compensation for friendship is friendship. Your belief that a lifetime of laundering dirty underwear is “payment” for a man saying something nice once in a while once again demonstrates what a fucked up view of relationships you have. “Leadership”, my foot.”

Feminism is the promotion of WGTOW. A lifetime service of a man to meet a womans needs physically, emotionally, mentally, financially will be returned by………………..? Men are natural leaders, when you lobby to hand that role over to Big Daddy to build your patriarchy demonstrates a womans need to be led.
——————————————–
@Kendra, the bionic mommy
“If men are choosing to stay single because that’s what makes them happy, good for them. Not everyone wants or needs to be in LTRs. If they are choosing to stay single just to spite women, then that is not going to be that effective. They are unlikely to get much of a reaction from women other than indifference.”

Between MGTOW, MRAs, PUA, etc; it seems there are loads of deffering mens movements. Maybe its time for women to stop looking in the mirror at their reflection and look inside themselves. Perhaps its not men that are the problem.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

How about feminists who support some issues that mgtow men/mrm men like a few here have said they support men starting their own blog ?

Well, there’s No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz? for one.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Samuel: The men quietly going their own way are not, “a waste”. If they are content with their lives, and doing it because that is the path to their happiness, then they are fulfilled. That’s not a waste.

Are there women who might like to date/sleep with/establish an LTR/marry them? Perhaps. Is is sad for them? Yep. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. There are women who would like to go out with Matthew Broderick.

Not gonna happen. He’s off the market. It’s that he went his own way, and that involved getting married.

Lots of people are going to be disappointed that the object of a crush is unavailable to them. Why isn’t relevant to that. There is no functional difference between a man who is being abstinent (or celibate) and one who is being faithful to his partner(s).

Papr1ka
Papr1ka
9 years ago

“Feminism is the promotion of WGTOW. A lifetime service of a man to meet a womans needs physically, emotionally, mentally, financially will be returned by………………..? Men are natural leaders, when you lobby to hand that role over to Big Daddy to build your patriarchy demonstrates a womans need to be led.”

Well…I can’t speak for all women, but I don’t look at a man as a vehicle by which I can have certain needs met. Personally, I think that all adults should be able to look after themselves with regard to cooking, cleaning, home repair, yard work, car maintenance, general happiness and so on. I’m not suggesting that people ought to be best suited to solitude, but that people ought to be self-sufficient and capable of pursuing happiness without depending entirely on another person to do so. If all you see when you look at a prospective intimate partner is the sum of what services they bring to the table in a relationship…you’re doing it wrong.

In a successful relationship, both parties ought to be meeting physical, emotional and mental needs equally. If the burden of fulfilling all of those needs falls on one party alone, then that isn’t fair.

As far as finances go, I guess that depends. Some people are happy taking upon all of the burden of bringing home the bacon, other people prefer to share in the responsibility, it is just a matter of what one is most comfortable with doing. In my relationship, I bring home the bulk of the income. My fiance has been laid off for awhile, so I’ve picked up another job to help support us. It doesn’t bother me because I like being out and about and interacting with other people, and I know that he’s at least trying to find work. If he doesn’t find a job, it’s not like I’m going to dump him over it. As long as we make ends meet, I’m content.

Arguing about the role of government in people’s lives and in society is another topic. There are arguments for and against expanding the role of government made compellingly by both men and women, and I don’t consider it to be, on the whole, a gender-related issue. Personally, I have a utilitarian take on the matter. Beyond that, I don’t think that it is a relevant topic of discussion for this thread. Especially considering that the initial gist was focused on the violent comments to which David was drawing attention to.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

A lifetime service of a man to meet a womans needs physically, emotionally, mentally, financially will be returned by………………..?

Have you perhaps confused “women” with “cats” here? :p