On the ironically named Happy Bachelors forum, the regular poster who calls himself khankrumthebulgar – and whose real name is Randall Joseph Shake — has been complaining about those of us who’ve pointed out that much MRA and MGTOW rhetoric sounds all too similar to the rhetoric of Norwegian terrorist murderer Anders Breivik. In response to Hugo Schwyzer’s post on the topic at the Good Men Project, he wrote:
This smacks to me of extreme desperation. As they are trying to draw us into a response. They should hear Crickets chirping. … they are in need of traffic, controversy some off the wall unhinged response. When they receive none, it simply means we will not waste the oxygen to answer these absurd and insane accusations. No evidence exists that the MRA or MRM is in any way connected to the Norwegian gunman. IF we were there would be dozens of dead Feminists by now. There is none, hence this is a weak and pathetic attempt to incite violence and is irresponsible on their part. …
If such violence were to happen. After such outrageous accusations, it is Hugo Schwyzer and the Good Menz Project who is financially liable for stoking and promoting extremism in the hopes of generating a violent response. The blood will be on their hands not ours.
You will notice that this argument is identical to that of Angry Harry: if an extremist commits an act of terrorism or violence, don’t blame him or his extremist ideology; blame the people who pissed him off. Taken to its logical extreme, this specious argument would mean blaming the Jews for the Holocaust; after all, they’re the ones who got Hitler so worked up in the first place.
It seems to me that if you don’t want people to associate you with terrorists, you should probably stop talking like terrorists, referring casually to “dozens of dead feminists” and trying to blame the enemy in advance for any violence that comes from your side.
Also, you should probably stop making comments like the following, which were posted in response to Amanda Marcotte’s recent post on Misogyny and Terrorism. The first one, from spocksdisciple, a board moderator, fantasized about a violent backlash that would put women in general and feminists in particular in their supposed place:
[T]he backlash against feminism and it’s misandry will be both awe inspiring and terrifying at the same time.
Modern radical feminism is doomed, any woman sprouting these kinds of statements after the backlash won’t last very long, people and especially men are growing angrier everyday and all these whining losers in the feminist movement is doing to kicking a sleeping bear even harder.
Feminism is so done that women will be lucky if any man bothers to even look at them other then as a piece of meat, the days of the 19th century are going to come back where women either know their place or they’ll suffer the consequences of their actions and arrogance, big daddy gov’t isn’t going to be around to protect the rights of women to act like bitches.
And you probably shouldn’t talk about burning down buildings with people inside them, as khankrumthebulgar (that is, Randall Joseph Shake) does in this comment:
Feminists will be treated like the French Nobility was during the French Revolution. There will be a payback to these Evil Bitches. … As to the Good Mangina Project, they are our enemies. Burn the building to the ground with them in it.
Is he literally talking about burning down a building, or is he speaking metaphorically? In the wake of a tragedy that involved a man literally gunning down the children of his leftist and feminist enemies, khankrumthebulgar’s comments are indefensible either way.
Let me reiterate: these are posts from men who are angry that people have linked them in any way to the Norwegian terrorist. Are they really this lacking in self-awareness, or are they so used to talking in an environment where violent comments about feminists are so common and accepted that they don’t even realize the irony?
I don’t know, and I don’t care. I just wish that those in the MRA and MGTOW movements who are bothered by this kind of talk – and I know there are some who are – would actually step up and declare this sort of shit out of bounds. I’m not holding my breath.
Note: The Happy Bachelors forum is members-only, so the links to the forum won’t work if you’re not a member. Here are screen shots of all the forum comments mentioned in this post, in order. Click to see the full-sized image. I edited several of the comments, but indicated all removed material with ellipses. As you will see the edits did not change the meaning of what was said.
khankrumthebulgar gives his real name
khankrumthebulgar on Hugo Schwyzer (just the portion of the comment that is from him; the rest quotes Schwyzer’s post).
spocksdisciple comment
khankrumthebulgar’s “burn the building” comment
Ugh, is Amanda Marcotte the person who had the book with the terrible comic book style art of white people rescuing each other from “evil black tribal people?”
“Ugh, is Amanda Marcotte the person who had the book with the terrible comic book style art of white people rescuing each other from “evil black tribal people?””
Yes she is that person.
Ami – If only that worked on MRAs.
WELL WHAT ABOUT… BASICALLY ALL OF YOU EXCEPT MAYBE GLEN SACKS?
@ Ami – that is so true! From now on I shall use this style of argument in my everyday life! I think that it will go over really well the next time I am at a trial!
That’s an interesting Smoking Gun report Clarence. It’s completly irrelevant to the question at hand, but thanks anyway.
It would be of interest if the question at hand was “How is it that nobody could get convicted of the crime?”. The political motivation of the procuror, the fact the eye witness testimony is allegedly unreliable, etc… Can’t pin it on any of the Duke boys beyond the shadow of a doubt.
What we do know though is that there was a physical examination by a nurse that confirmed there was rough sex, and the victim saying it was non-consensual, which together means rape occured. Can we know who at that party did it? No. Do we know someone did? Oh yeah.
“It would help if you would simply state: Amanda Marcotte is not a feminist. Not, say that she’s not YOUR type of feminist, but that she’s not a feminist. You could say the same for Daly. They’ve basically done so at NSWATM. It’s like a breath of fresh air.”
You know, if that’s true, that clinches it; I don’t care if Ozymandias is nice, NSWATMZ is not cool. They are not the empresses of feminism. We don’t get to No True Scotsmen the movement at large. We can say that they’re not good feminists, we can say that they’re feminists we disagree with, but provided someone takes pro-woman stances, it is not up to us to try to declare them not-feminists.
@Nobinayamu *nods* yeah that’s my huge issue w/ her too.. I never read her Duke Lacrosse stuff, and it never intersected w/ my part of the feminist web back then xD so I dunno nething about that… in fact I didn’t even know of her until the stuff involving the cover and BFP xD
I’ve written about “breaking points”, and how everybody has their own personal ones and makes decisions on that :] a few times now (so I dun want to write it again, which is why I haven’t xD ) but I choose not to read her even tho I’m sure she writes lots of great stuff… Like I’m sure Erika Moen has an asston of great comics, but I still refuse to read her xD
And I think I’m going to stop derailing and turning this into a “how much do we dislike Marcotte” thread? xD
It’s a clever tactic tho… now it’s all about her and ppl critiquing her xD
Mandy… Mandy… Where have I seen that before?
I wonder if this is that guy who used to show up in the comments’ threads on Pandagon accusing Marcotte of all manner of “cool kid” elitism, and going to her prom in goth wear, and a bunch of other foolishness.
Clare, was that you? And if it was, dude, that was years ago when I was still lurking those threads regularly. Is Marcotte the reason you’ve spent so much time “researching” the Duke Lacrosse incident? You should really, take a step back. Really.
Have fun, everybody, I’m off to drink on a pirate ship.
@Amused & Fuck MRAs
“We often hear that a woman who acts like a “slut” shouldn’t be surprised to find herself used like one, so I say what’s good for the goose is good for the gander: a man who plays at being a rapist shouldn’t be surprised to find himself treated as a rapist.”
You got a deal!
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@kristinmh
“Yeah, NWO should run a troll school.”
The correct term is goblin. Since goblins are a most disagreeable sort anyway and any disagreement with feminism equals troll, it should equal goblin.
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@Rutee
“The movement has much bigger things to criticize over than one case of libel against dudes who didn’t even go to trial. But that would require you to care about the poor, or people of color, the genderqueer, the disabled…”
So true, white men are arlreadt doubly privileged by just being white and men, somewhere theres a genderqueer with hurt feelings. If a white guy gets into a fight and gets a broken rib, big whoop. If a genderqueer gets into a fight and gets a broken rib plus gets called a bad name thats a hate crime and carries an extra punishment. Now thats the kinda equality laws that we can all get behind. Goooooooooo laws. Feminism, a global force for good.
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@Nobinayamu
“Also, if we want to examine the similarities between parts of Breivik’s manifesto and some of rhetoric of within the MRM, we first have to, like, shave Amanda Marcotte bald and forcibly take away her right to call herself a feminist.”
Oh this is soooo brilliant, stupid MRAs. Its not like professors at college get fired for daring to say men and women are different with different abilities, or women wouldn’t get fired from talk shows or politics or anything else for that matter for saying anything misandric. When have men ever been held to the same moral, political or lawful yardstick as women? When have men ever been held accountable like women are? If you ain’t feminist, you ain’t shit.
Perv:
You can rightly get on bloggers. But when it comes to individual posters on blogs that’s when your “blame” schtick for MRA’s goes awry. Anyone can say anything as a poster on a blog. Really, at this point I think I’ll just start creating a blog on feminist hate speech and actions ( I could pull tons of crap from the Liz Library and unlike lots of this stuff the hatred there has had real world affects) and directing people to links there. It’s useless to argue with people who think that a spokeswoman for their movement making publically biased statements on several media outlets during a criminal case and even afterwords is just a small little thing, surely not as horrible as some nobodies in a private chat making a few rounds of misogynistic language or saying things to the effect of “come the revolution…”.
Heck, why don’t you just link to antiabortion sites? You can get just as much hatred, misogyny and chauvinism there (and you can remove the women commenters from consideration of course) and unlike Khankrum and Spock and Angry Harry you could point out to where people with those beliefs actually committed atrocities in service of those beliefs.
Nob:
I made not one post on Pandagon in my life. I saw it was an echo chamber back in 2005/2006. Why bother going to place where I’d not get one word in before I was banned?
What’s worse; criticizing the Catholic Church and committing what they would consider to be blasphemy; or raping and covering up the rape of children? You’ll have legit grounds to cry about Marcotte’s anti-Catholic ‘hate speech’ when you call out the Catholic Church for what they have done.
But Marcotte is off-topic. This post isn’t about Marcotte. It’s about the fact that the 29 pages of anti-woman and anti-feminist hate speech in Breivik’s manifesto was nothing but distilled MRAism. It was barely 2% of the entire document, but it was there, and what he said about feminism and women was basically indistinguishable from what the general MRM says about feminism and women. What was in his manifesto was extreme MRAism, to be sure, but it’s no less than certain MRAs have been ‘warning’ us women about for awhile – that there will one day come violence and vengeance against us for the crime of having a will of our own.
And the MRAs aren’t taking this comparison very well. What they’ve been saying for awhile would happen; happened. And when people point out that Breivik’s misogyny is identical to their misogyny, they freak out and act like they’re being attacked. All we’re doing is quoting their own beliefs and words back at them.
BlackBloc:
There’s been books written about this and there’s some evidence (it’s in the civil suits) that not only was the SANE nurse unqualified (she was a student) in terms of law to give that exam but she also falsified some information on it. She’s listed as a defendant in the suit, and I can get her name if you wish. So no, we don’t know that there was sex. Indeed, the fact that
A. She was allegedly GANGRAPED by 3 guys in a small bathroom
who
1. Never left a single trace of DNA in or on her
2. Whereas there was tons of DNA from previous men that didn’t belong to the team including her boyfriend at the time
and
B. The other stripper, also african american (Kim Roberts) said a rape never took place
Tends to suggest this was a false accusation to anyone but the ideologically most hardline.
Really, at this point I think I’ll just start creating a blog on feminist hate speech and actions ( I could pull tons of crap from the Liz Library and unlike lots of this stuff the hatred there has had real world affects) and directing people to links there.
Why don’t you? xD
Every troll seems to threaten this xD
It’s starting to remind me of that time me and my friend were accused of shoplifting and the security guard kept threatening to check the security camera xD And we kept saying “go ahead!” and he kept saying “No, I will! I’m not joking around. I’ll check the video tapes!” and we’re like “yeah go ahead, we didn’t steal nething” and it kept going on “you think I’m joking, but I will!” xD And finally he let us go w/ a “warning” xD
I would like to see this site tho 😀 I hope I’m on it a lot xD Back in the comics day I was a MENACE! (or the THREANACE as my friend calls me b/c of trolls referring to me as a threat and a menace xD ) and currently I’m VILE and CRUEL xD
So clearly I’m the worst feminist on the PLANET (I’m waiting until they revoke my “membership” b/c apparently we have one xD and we’re a big club rather than a loose ideology) so clearly if such a blog is started, my blog should be quoted everywhere there! 😀
Victoria:
Do you really want to go there with anyone who has ever said anything good about feminism or been a self-proclaimed feminist having all their crimes attributed to feminism? Do you really want to go there?
Well, time to go again for today at least. I hope you all have lots of fun in my absence and to the ones who’ve treated me as a human being, albeit one with different beliefs, I wish you well.
Popping in to say I’m a big Marcotte fan. Don’t always agree with her; don’t need to.
She slandered REAL PEOPLE.
And they circulated an e-mail “joke” about masturbating while torturing a woman to death (by slicing her skin off with a razor). The fact that these are the men that are invariably held up as the epitome of the male martyr-slash-saint doesn’t exactly flatter your movement.
Yes, those charming Duke boys who wrote about skinning a stripper. Playful hijinks! Boys will boys, yaknow. And Clarence, while you’re on The Smoking Gun, you should look for the emails. They have copies there.
You’re just acting like a petulant 3 year old. Tedious and boring. I’d rather have NWO, the petulant 5 year old, screed on about the Jews.
No one is attributing Breivik’s crimes to the MRM. All we’re saying is, “Wow, Breivik’s views on feminism and the MRM’s views on feminism are pretty much identical. And, hey, didn’t some MRAs say something about mass acts of violence being on the horizon as retribution?”
And then the MRM basically goes “HOW DARE YOU!”
If you want to argue in good faith, then why don’t you point out where Breivik’s manifesto and the MRM party line differ.
See, here’s the thing;
I will repudiate any feminist who claims our solutions should be violence. Dig up as many as you like. No part of the system should be violence, and I’ll keep saying that.
You guys advocate violence You get someone who agrees with you, and does violence. And then you keep saying violence is fine. That’s not equivalent in the minds of thinking people.
@Nobinayamu
“See, unlike some members of the MRM I don’t have a problem with holding two thoughts in my head at once, or dealing with nuance. Also, Marcotte is not a terrorist who just murderd 80 people in cold blood so I don’t feel the need to disassociate myself her nonexistant criminal activity.
Amanda Marcotte is a feminist. She has taken stances I find highly problematic. She’s still a feminist. I’m a feminist. Sometimes I disagree with other people who call themselves feminists. And that’s okay.”
I thought I’d regender your statement, lets see if it still works. You must agree with me by the way.
See, unlike some members of the feminists I don’t have a problem with holding two thoughts in my head at once, or dealing with nuance. Also, Angry Harry is not a terrorist who just murderd 80 people in cold blood so I don’t feel the need to disassociate myself with his nonexistant criminal activity.
Angry Harry is an MRA. He has taken stances I find highly problematic. He’s still an MRA. I’m an MRA. Sometimes I disagree with other people who call themselves MRAs. And that’s okay.
Hey, doesn’t that mean you can never mock an MRA? If ya do you’ll have to mock Amanda Marcotte just as viciously, otherwise you’d be a hypocrite. Yup it sure does.
Those who not ‘ideologically hardline’ can make the distinction between a possible wrong accusation and a *false* accusation.
Actually, I would like to see these feminists who espouse violence like the MRM. I have read some pretty out there radfems too, but none who advocate killing all men, or even some men, to accomplish their goals.
Sigh.
I shouldn’t have stuck those posts in that other thread. Now I see this:
BlackBloc: Just what, my dear person, would be enough to convince you that a rape DID NOT take place? This is becoming a very interesting question, indeed. And yes, compared to anyone on this site I am an expert on the Duke case. I’m not an expert on everything, but on Duke, I am the expert here.