On the ironically named Happy Bachelors forum, the regular poster who calls himself khankrumthebulgar – and whose real name is Randall Joseph Shake — has been complaining about those of us who’ve pointed out that much MRA and MGTOW rhetoric sounds all too similar to the rhetoric of Norwegian terrorist murderer Anders Breivik. In response to Hugo Schwyzer’s post on the topic at the Good Men Project, he wrote:
This smacks to me of extreme desperation. As they are trying to draw us into a response. They should hear Crickets chirping. … they are in need of traffic, controversy some off the wall unhinged response. When they receive none, it simply means we will not waste the oxygen to answer these absurd and insane accusations. No evidence exists that the MRA or MRM is in any way connected to the Norwegian gunman. IF we were there would be dozens of dead Feminists by now. There is none, hence this is a weak and pathetic attempt to incite violence and is irresponsible on their part. …
If such violence were to happen. After such outrageous accusations, it is Hugo Schwyzer and the Good Menz Project who is financially liable for stoking and promoting extremism in the hopes of generating a violent response. The blood will be on their hands not ours.
You will notice that this argument is identical to that of Angry Harry: if an extremist commits an act of terrorism or violence, don’t blame him or his extremist ideology; blame the people who pissed him off. Taken to its logical extreme, this specious argument would mean blaming the Jews for the Holocaust; after all, they’re the ones who got Hitler so worked up in the first place.
It seems to me that if you don’t want people to associate you with terrorists, you should probably stop talking like terrorists, referring casually to “dozens of dead feminists” and trying to blame the enemy in advance for any violence that comes from your side.
Also, you should probably stop making comments like the following, which were posted in response to Amanda Marcotte’s recent post on Misogyny and Terrorism. The first one, from spocksdisciple, a board moderator, fantasized about a violent backlash that would put women in general and feminists in particular in their supposed place:
[T]he backlash against feminism and it’s misandry will be both awe inspiring and terrifying at the same time.
Modern radical feminism is doomed, any woman sprouting these kinds of statements after the backlash won’t last very long, people and especially men are growing angrier everyday and all these whining losers in the feminist movement is doing to kicking a sleeping bear even harder.
Feminism is so done that women will be lucky if any man bothers to even look at them other then as a piece of meat, the days of the 19th century are going to come back where women either know their place or they’ll suffer the consequences of their actions and arrogance, big daddy gov’t isn’t going to be around to protect the rights of women to act like bitches.
And you probably shouldn’t talk about burning down buildings with people inside them, as khankrumthebulgar (that is, Randall Joseph Shake) does in this comment:
Feminists will be treated like the French Nobility was during the French Revolution. There will be a payback to these Evil Bitches. … As to the Good Mangina Project, they are our enemies. Burn the building to the ground with them in it.
Is he literally talking about burning down a building, or is he speaking metaphorically? In the wake of a tragedy that involved a man literally gunning down the children of his leftist and feminist enemies, khankrumthebulgar’s comments are indefensible either way.
Let me reiterate: these are posts from men who are angry that people have linked them in any way to the Norwegian terrorist. Are they really this lacking in self-awareness, or are they so used to talking in an environment where violent comments about feminists are so common and accepted that they don’t even realize the irony?
I don’t know, and I don’t care. I just wish that those in the MRA and MGTOW movements who are bothered by this kind of talk – and I know there are some who are – would actually step up and declare this sort of shit out of bounds. I’m not holding my breath.
Note: The Happy Bachelors forum is members-only, so the links to the forum won’t work if you’re not a member. Here are screen shots of all the forum comments mentioned in this post, in order. Click to see the full-sized image. I edited several of the comments, but indicated all removed material with ellipses. As you will see the edits did not change the meaning of what was said.
khankrumthebulgar gives his real name
khankrumthebulgar on Hugo Schwyzer (just the portion of the comment that is from him; the rest quotes Schwyzer’s post).
spocksdisciple comment
khankrumthebulgar’s “burn the building” comment
That’s “during” but hey, this site has no editor.
Yeah you “criticized” the act of terrorism, committed by Breivik. And posters on this very forum have stated that they unequivocally disagree with Marcotte about the Duke Lacrosse brouhaha, and on other issues.
So what’s the difference, Clare?
Rutee:
Please don’t think I’ve never been to Womanist Musings, ok?
Jesus Christ, I’m beginning to think Clarence is a bot. Whatever you put in, you get something with “Mary Daly” “Duke Lacrosse” and/or “Amanda Marcotte” in it.
Er, “in it” should be “back”.
kristinmh:
Do you go to other sites and troll? I ask this because you have yet to make a substantive counterpoint to anything I’ve said, you’ve just preferred to attack me and whine for more moderation. I don’t think you’d last one day at Feminist Critics or even NSWATM where you’d have to actually argue your case without ad-homs.
And yet, you still fail to actually consider those the things to actually target when trying to discuss how feminism fails. Because you know, Marcotte ‘libelling’ (That word does not mean what you think it means; witness the lack of lawsuits against the 80 news sites and organizations breathlessly talking about Casey Anthony’s guilt) dudes was actually IMPORTANT, but the rest? Pffft.
Stop digging.
*Scratches head*
So: Mary Daley continued to be influential in the feminist movement all through the 1990’s, which is why she was forced out of Boston College. Because of all the hefty influence she wields.
Okay, I’ve never posted here before ever, but I just have got to say one thing in response to this:
“Feminists will be treated like the French Nobility was during the French Revolution.”
So, then, a number of people, many of whom are in actuality completely innocent, will be killed for spectacle, at the behest of a paranoid, arrogant douchebag of a man, and to the cheers of a people whose hate has been spurred on more than anything by propaganda and lies.
Sounds like that fits the MRA bill, at least. Someone should tell them to crack open a history book (one that isn’t 50 years old) before they make their analogies.
Also, if we want to examine the similarities between parts of Breivik’s manifesto and some of rhetoric of within the MRM, we first have to, like, shave Amanda Marcotte bald and forcibly take away her right to call herself a feminist.
Or something.
I’m the person Sarah was referring to who is extremely critical of Marcotte xD To the point where I dun read her or link to her…
What am I supposed to do now? xD Have a big sign saying “these are feminists I don’t like”? xD
Given that I only know of the MRA response to Marcotte’s Duke thing and not to her racefail and other such things, I guess we should just assume therefore MRAs are fine w/ her racefail! (and since the WoC who dislike her and hate her for the racefail don’t have giant “I HATE AMANDA MARCOTTE” banners everywhere…. we should assume they’re ok w/ her stuff xD )
Mostly I’m confused how Marcotte got here xD Or Mary Daly…
is this “well you guys are just as bad too!”? xD Or.. whut… “I don’t care about problematic s- on “my side” b/c I don’t believe you care enough about yours?” o_O Is this about sides? xD
Oh and David… For this forum, can nebody get a membership or is it restricted and they vet you? Cuz I’m kinda uncomfortable about screenshots unless membership is nothing more than a formality (like how the NYT used to require you to get free membership to read their site)
Nob:
It would help if you would simply state: Amanda Marcotte is not a feminist. Not, say that she’s not YOUR type of feminist, but that she’s not a feminist. You could say the same for Daly. They’ve basically done so at NSWATM. It’s like a breath of fresh air.
“We often hear that a woman who acts like a “slut” shouldn’t be surprised to find herself used like one, so I say what’s good for the goose is good for the gander: a man who plays at being a rapist shouldn’t be surprised to find himself treated as a rapist.”
That’s a thing o’ beauty right there.
Yeah, Ami, I think in this case Clarence is mainly wanting “sides”, not discussion.
Clarence: no, this is the only site I regularly comment on.
I’m not interested in arguing with you, because you are not arguing in good faith. You are using classic troll techniques – derailing, employing logical fallacies (the Mary Daly thing is a textbook example of poisoning the well), demanding we talk about your unrelated off-topic obsessions, and needling regulars (your refusal to use Nobinayamu’s full handle, for example). You have little to say other than “Feminists suck because I don’t like Mary Daly or Amanda Marcotte”.
Now, David has a high troll tolerance, which is his prerogative since it’s his site. The most popular troll here is probably NWOslave because, though a vile and nasty commenter, he is highly entertaining. You are not.
I never ad-hom’d you, I insulted you. I never said “Clarence, you are wrong because you are boring”. Your wrongness had already been demonstrated. I said, “Clarence, you are boring” and added that boringness is often grounds for banning.
Insults =/= ad hominem attacks.
By the way:
Probably the reason they don’t sue Mandy is that :
A. She’s poor
B. Do you guys know anything about the various Duke lawsuits about this matter? Unlike some of you, I’ve kept up with this since 2007. That’s also why I’m sure Holly is wrong about AM apologizing. Anyway, I’ll get off the Duke thing because I think I’ve made my points. I’m hardly being unreasonable.
She is a feminist. And Breivik was a Christian, but that’s doesn’t mean all Christians are terrorists. Every movement has a few distasteful people. The problem is when the movement is enoucaring or supporting the problems. And you haven’t show that at all.
Clarence,
Personally, I’ve never read a single thing written by Marcotte nor seen an appearance by her on any television program. I don’t know and don’t much care what she said about the Duke LaCrosse team or whether she eventually apologized for being “wrong” (I say “wrong” because knowing nothing about the case, I couldn’t say one way or the other who was correct…I also happen to believe that occasionally people are found “not guilty” not because the really didn’t commit the crime they are charged with, but rather because there is not enough evidence to convict. But all of that is beside the point).
As far as libel is concerned, generally speaking if she were actually committing libel she would have to be saying false statements about that person which she knows or has reason to know are false. There are other requirements as well, but that is a fairly important one.
Second, while Amanda Marcotte is certainly a well known feminist, she is hardly a spokesperson for the movement as a whole and the people here are no more responsible of the irresponsible things that she says than are you responsible for irresponsible and hateful things said by well known members of the MRM. What we are responsible for are our personal statements, and a fair number of people in this blog, in this thread even, have said that they disagree with the way Amanda Marcotte handled that situation. Stop beating a dead horse.
*encouraging
*haven’t shown that at all about feminism.
@Kristin OH he’s referring to Nobinyamu! xD I thought he was referring to Nobby! xD (i was like, where’s Nobby on this thread? o_O )
What is w/ ppl and her name? xD At least he didn’t assume that it was an African name xD
Actually, in personal off-line discussions, I’ve been critical of Marcotte and don’t read Pandagon more than a couple of times a month any more. The Duke Lacrosse incident was a part of it although, for me, it had more to do with the dust-up over the artwork for her first book and how she handled it. And the issue with Brown Femi Power and how she handled that as well.
I still think that a lot of her political writing is well done and intriguing. She’s still fun with music. I think her advocacy and work on Reality Check and with reproductive rights, in general, is excellent.
As for why we’re talking about Marcotte and Mary Daly? Clare likes false equivalencies and thinks they’re adequate substitutions for good arguments.
kristenmh:
This works both ways. If you were going to attack my use of Mary Daly, you could have been more honest and not tried to make it seem like her feminist membership, importance, or activism ended in the 1970’s. I don’t see that as arguing honestly. And what’s more “unrelated”? You want MRA’s to attack misogynists but you don’t attack misandrists? How’s that “unrelated”? Don’t you think hate leads to hate?
This troll should get a better schtick. “I’ve been failing at this for years now” is not actually impressive.
@Rachel It’s the greatest argument evar tho! xD
You can respond to ANY criticism like this xD “WELL WHAT ABOUT AMANDA MARCOTTE!?”
Somebody should tell the vegetarians this xD They could have countered my anti-veg post w/ “WELL WHAT ABOUT AMANDA MARCOTTE?” rather than all the murder and other threats I got xD
That or c-ntscab xD I think it’d have been more effective if he showed up here saying “YOU’RE ALL C-NTSCABS” than “WHAT ABOUT AMANDA MARCOTTE” xD
As much as I dislike her, now I want to make “What about Amanda Marcotte?!?” t-shirts (hint hint to David) xD
I think I’m gonna start using “WHAT ABOUT ERIKA MOEN” as a response to ppl xD Or “WHAT ABOUT M ANDREA!” xD I presume ppl not attacking them is clearly proof that they hate trans men and trans women xD
Clare, Amanda Marcotte is a feminist. Why on earth would, or should, I say other wise? Because I don’t always agree with her?
See, unlike some members of the MRM I don’t have a problem with holding two thoughts in my head at once, or dealing with nuance. Also, Marcotte is not a terrorist who just murderd 80 people in cold blood so I don’t feel the need to disassociate myself her nonexistant criminal activity.
Amanda Marcotte is a feminist. She has taken stances I find highly problematic. She’s still a feminist. I’m a feminist. Sometimes I disagree with other people who call themselves feminists. And that’s okay.