On the ironically named Happy Bachelors forum, the regular poster who calls himself khankrumthebulgar – and whose real name is Randall Joseph Shake — has been complaining about those of us who’ve pointed out that much MRA and MGTOW rhetoric sounds all too similar to the rhetoric of Norwegian terrorist murderer Anders Breivik. In response to Hugo Schwyzer’s post on the topic at the Good Men Project, he wrote:
This smacks to me of extreme desperation. As they are trying to draw us into a response. They should hear Crickets chirping. … they are in need of traffic, controversy some off the wall unhinged response. When they receive none, it simply means we will not waste the oxygen to answer these absurd and insane accusations. No evidence exists that the MRA or MRM is in any way connected to the Norwegian gunman. IF we were there would be dozens of dead Feminists by now. There is none, hence this is a weak and pathetic attempt to incite violence and is irresponsible on their part. …
If such violence were to happen. After such outrageous accusations, it is Hugo Schwyzer and the Good Menz Project who is financially liable for stoking and promoting extremism in the hopes of generating a violent response. The blood will be on their hands not ours.
You will notice that this argument is identical to that of Angry Harry: if an extremist commits an act of terrorism or violence, don’t blame him or his extremist ideology; blame the people who pissed him off. Taken to its logical extreme, this specious argument would mean blaming the Jews for the Holocaust; after all, they’re the ones who got Hitler so worked up in the first place.
It seems to me that if you don’t want people to associate you with terrorists, you should probably stop talking like terrorists, referring casually to “dozens of dead feminists” and trying to blame the enemy in advance for any violence that comes from your side.
Also, you should probably stop making comments like the following, which were posted in response to Amanda Marcotte’s recent post on Misogyny and Terrorism. The first one, from spocksdisciple, a board moderator, fantasized about a violent backlash that would put women in general and feminists in particular in their supposed place:
[T]he backlash against feminism and it’s misandry will be both awe inspiring and terrifying at the same time.
Modern radical feminism is doomed, any woman sprouting these kinds of statements after the backlash won’t last very long, people and especially men are growing angrier everyday and all these whining losers in the feminist movement is doing to kicking a sleeping bear even harder.
Feminism is so done that women will be lucky if any man bothers to even look at them other then as a piece of meat, the days of the 19th century are going to come back where women either know their place or they’ll suffer the consequences of their actions and arrogance, big daddy gov’t isn’t going to be around to protect the rights of women to act like bitches.
And you probably shouldn’t talk about burning down buildings with people inside them, as khankrumthebulgar (that is, Randall Joseph Shake) does in this comment:
Feminists will be treated like the French Nobility was during the French Revolution. There will be a payback to these Evil Bitches. … As to the Good Mangina Project, they are our enemies. Burn the building to the ground with them in it.
Is he literally talking about burning down a building, or is he speaking metaphorically? In the wake of a tragedy that involved a man literally gunning down the children of his leftist and feminist enemies, khankrumthebulgar’s comments are indefensible either way.
Let me reiterate: these are posts from men who are angry that people have linked them in any way to the Norwegian terrorist. Are they really this lacking in self-awareness, or are they so used to talking in an environment where violent comments about feminists are so common and accepted that they don’t even realize the irony?
I don’t know, and I don’t care. I just wish that those in the MRA and MGTOW movements who are bothered by this kind of talk – and I know there are some who are – would actually step up and declare this sort of shit out of bounds. I’m not holding my breath.
Note: The Happy Bachelors forum is members-only, so the links to the forum won’t work if you’re not a member. Here are screen shots of all the forum comments mentioned in this post, in order. Click to see the full-sized image. I edited several of the comments, but indicated all removed material with ellipses. As you will see the edits did not change the meaning of what was said.
khankrumthebulgar gives his real name
khankrumthebulgar on Hugo Schwyzer (just the portion of the comment that is from him; the rest quotes Schwyzer’s post).
spocksdisciple comment
khankrumthebulgar’s “burn the building” comment
NWO: “Leadership” is a nebulous concept, and within a traditional marriage, it basically boils down to the husband making the awesome effort of opening his mouth and barking an order. That, and taking the belt to a misbehaving child occasionally. That isn’t the equivalent of actually doing, you know, actual work. Cooking as an expression of gratitude for being told to shut up and get back in the kitchen? No thanks.
Similarly with everything else you mentioned. Financial support? That only applies to the tiny fraction of marriages in which the woman truly does absolutely no work, neither outside the home nor inside it. Even in the good old days, only the wealthiest financiers and upper-level aristocrats fell into that category, so your claim in that regard is just false. Fixing stuff? Even assuming only the husband actually does it, it’s only occasionally that things need fixing, and this is done at the man’s leisure. Cooking, cleaning, child care and laundry, by contrast, are ongoing chores that have to be performed every day, without fail, without vacations, sick days or holidays. So no, fixing the garbage disposal isn’t the equivalent of all those things. Besides, when a man can’t fix something or doesn’t feel like it and prefers to call a professional, this is considered to be far more socially appropriate than the family hiring a housekeeper because the wife either can’t or doesn’t feel like doing all that woman stuff. Gardening? I didn’t know that was a male thing, but whatever; it’s a hobby, and it’s seasonal. Oh, you mean, agriculture? Well, that’s funny, because farmers’ wives work as farmhands, and children do too.
And as for the need to be led — governments have existed for at least 10 thousand years, long before feminism. You, for instance, clearly need to be led, lest you hurt yourself.
Oh, and as for meeting a woman’s mental and emotional needs? In a traditional marriage? I assume you mean the traditional husband would meet his wife’s mental and emotional needs by paying for the Valium and the lobotomy, because if it’s anything other than that, that is again just not true.
I must admit as an MGTOW male who just discovered this website yesterday I am impressed at the amount of information from the women on this sight. A lot of good insight from a feminist perspective on men and I was pleasantly suprised to find out there are feminists who actually support some mgtow/mrm issues. Just my perspective on some posted why there is no wgtow movement. I do know that there are some women who have been hurt by men and choose to stay single and not date. I think from a male perspective, men are isolaters by nature. That is why the term a man needs a “man cave”.One of the problems in our society is men have not learned to express their anger in an effective way.Many men die young because anger kills. Hence, that is why some females complain of the anti women sentiment on sites like “happy bachelors” or other mgtow/mrm websites. Since men have not learned to channel their anger and hurt by women, they “bail out” and run away. One of the problems with some men in any relationship is they “run away” and give up rather than deal with the uncomfortable feelings. Remember, in some people, underneath the feelings of anger and bitterness is hurt and sadness. It is very easy for a man who has been hurt by many females whether it is a mother issue or from a painful breakup to “run away” and “bail out” on women and marriage rather than accept that” Not All women are like that” and learn to accept women as imperfect people as some feminists have written to me that men who have been hurt by women should not blame the entire gender on a few “rotten apples”. I think when women are angry at men or have been hurt by men, they generally speaking would lie to talk about their feelings and discuss the problem and find a solution rather that wgtow. Its just the way some men are wired. To run away, to avoid the problem.Hence some men bail out on women and marriage.That is why I think there is more mgtow men movement as opposed to wgtow.
It’s called Lesbian separatism.
I thought about that, but to the best of my knowledge Lesbian separatists and AROTO people aren’t really a movement at all. Then again, it’s not like MGTOW is much of one either, so I guess they’re probably equivalent (Except htat again, AFAIK, AROTO and Lesbian Seperatists actually don’t spend nearly so much time whining about men in their own spaces)
Calling queer love “a waste” is homophobic. No one calls normative hetero monogamy “a waste”. I don’t think celibate people are “wasted” people either. Not everyone I want to date wants to date me, that’s the way reality works. People who don’t want to date me is a category that includes plenty of pleasant people, as well as some unpleasant ones (who don’t overlap with the group that I want to date). One of the most gorgeous men I have ever laid eyes on was celibate. Which was fine, he doesn’t exist for me. But this guy also didn’t hate half of the population or the relationships of others, he had just had two very abusive relationships and was taking some time off to break out of the pattern (fyi, this was a gay guy). There were some people who mooned over him, but really, if he had been in a monogamous relationship, that still would have been the case. The celibacy of the MGTOWs doesn’t bother me in the slightest. It’s their perogative. It is the woman hating and the justification of discrimination against women in other areas than “person I individually will date” that is bone of contention.
Samuel:
How about feminists who support some issues that mgtow men/mrm men like a few here have said they support men starting their own blog ? This way some many men in the manosphere may be enlightened that some feminists support some mens issues and care about mens equality and welfare.
Why is this feminists’ responsibility to tell MRAs about this, rather than MRAs’ responsibility to learn? I noticed that you came here on your own, and you seem to be learning a lot from this site, so what is preventing other MRAs from doing the same?
We’re all in this together, but at the same time it’s not incumbent upon women to shepherd MGTOW through the process of learning that women aren’t evil. In fact, I feel a little awkward around that suggestion; it’s like you’re asking feminists to be mothers or teachers or something, without men taking responsibility for educating themselves. That seems to me like just another kind of sexism.
Most of the feminist blogs I have seen on the web are hateful towards men.Some call us dogs or pigs.
Where specifically have you seen these kinds of insults? I know it’s not on Manboobz; I visit Pandagon, Feministe, and Feministing every day and I haven’t seen insults like that there either. Is this something you’ve seen for yourself or something another MRA has told you he’s seen?
Voip, I have come across feminist blogs that have insulted men. What feminist blogs would you suggest I look at that welcome men? Also, darkside cat as far as homphobia, Ironically may feminists claim mgtow men are sexist,prejudiced and racist. How untrue a generalization. In fact as I have written before, there is a growing number of heterosexual mgtow men who have formed a bond a brotherhood with the gay male community. The stereotypical homophobic white American male maybe declining. Some mgtow will attend gay bars,or gay events, to just be in an atmosphere of all men. As a straight male mgtow, I have gay male friends and I am not afraid they will hit on me. The gay male community are men and while the majorityof gay men are feminist
and support women, there is a subculture of the gay male community that hate women as well as heterosexual men and want nothing to do with them. About a year ago, I was at a “gay bears” weeend(hairy macho gay guys). I grew up sort of prejudiced making fun of gay men but these guys were the nicest guys going and fun to hang around with. What struck me was there were no women around wondering which idiot sex crazed malw will try to pick them up that night for sex.It was just a bunch of straight guys and gay guys fellowshipping.
You know for a MGHOW, he seems to be having trouble GHOW despite declaring he was leaving a while ago xD
there is a subculture of the gay male community that hate women
I know those guys all too well xD
Which feminist sites do you find insult men? o: You can always read my blog! 😀 (tho I’m also vile and cruel.. and I may or may not lead a cult… so you have been warned xD )
For a non-queerphobe, you certainly were quick to go w/ the word “shemale” even if that essay used it o_O
Hey NWOslave, what do you think of my post at NSWATM? 😀 (since you’re around! xD )
What am I up to and plotting? 😀
Also yeah echoing everybody else here.. if ppl don’t want to date, or want to take themselves out of society, or etc etc… I’m fine w/ that :3 Ppl should do w/e makes them happy and content 🙂
Why are you surprised by ppl being understanding here Samuel? o_O You haven’t insulted nebody who called for ppl to be killed xD And feminists (esp the ones here) are about ppl doing w/e makes them happy, living their lives as they choose, being who they are, who they want to be, etc etc :3 So obv they’re not gonna be like “HOW DARE YOU” to MGTOW :3 W/e makes ppl happy and being who they want to be 😀
*haven’t insulted nebody or called for
not who xD
“there is a subculture of the gay male community that hate women”
“I know those guys all too well xD”
Yeesh. Links, or do they hide from the internet because it’s controlled by some matriarchy or something? /curious bisexual male
@redlocker
I don’t know about a subculture, but I have come across some very weird remarks from gay men from time to time about women’s bodies. Dan Savage is maybe the most famous for describing a vagina as “a canned ham dropped from a great height”. I once had a gay male housemate tell me to my face that seeing a woman’s private parts made him literally vomit, which I still can’t quite wrap my mind around (we were sitting at the kitchen table fully clad discussing weddings when suddenly the conversation took this odd turn…)
Most gay men I have met have been respectful of the idea of women’s genitalia without being attracted to it, for which I am very grateful.
one guy used to troll us comic feminists but his blog is gone now xD he used to lament how unfortunate straight guys had it having to be attracted to us irrational and cock-blocking women… and that gay men have it so lucky, and he feels so bad for them… >_>
@Molly: Huh. That’s…something.
@Ami: Oh, the things one finds on the internet.
I bet that us noticing all this strange stuff on the web makes us look like we’re splitting hairs.
Voip, I have come across feminist blogs that have insulted men.
Until you give me specifics, that’s just too vague to count as evidence. For my part, I’ve never read anyone on Pandagon, Feministe, Feministing, Hugo Schwyzer, Manboobz, NSWATM, Slacktivist (back when Fred Clark was still posting there, I haven’t been there since), Pervocracy, or Freejinger call men “pigs” or ‘dogs.”
What feminist blogs would you suggest I look at that welcome men?
Well, that wasn’t really what I was saying, I said that as far as I could remember, no feminist website I read compared men to animals, like you said they did. Now you want me to find feminist websites that welcome men, which is not the same topic. The technical term for what you just did is “moving the goalposts,” and it means that you are engineering the conversation so that you will never be satisfied. Not cool.
Meanwhile, about half the commenters here are men, and the blogger is a man too. I’d call that ‘welcoming.” Remember when you said that you thought that 100% of the commenters here were women? I think that you are seeing hostility to men where none exists, thus psyching yourself into making feminists look bad.
Considering the way the gay rights movement of the 70s treated women, I’m really not surprised if there’s still strong elements of misogyny in the culture itself. That’s not even 40 years ago. Ah, Kyriarchy, why must you make everything suck.
“Considering the way the gay rights movement of the 70s treated women, I’m really not surprised if there’s still strong elements of misogyny in the culture itself.”
Ouch, really? Specifics?
Oh GLBT being the worst alliance ever really doesn’t have its roots in this millenia.
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/02/what-can-the-atheist-movement-learn-from-the-gay-movement.html
She explains it much better than I could, seeing as she lived through it.
@Redlocker I encounter them from time to time in comments and stuff…and there are gay guys who show up on the Spearhead that are similar…
if they have some sort of “gay men against women” club or site I dunno about it o_O But they def exist… xD
I’ve never found an extraordinary amount of sexism coming from gay men, even in historical readings (hetero guys say fucked up shit about women’s genitals as well). There are some sexist gay men, sure, but we live in a sexist culture. It would be a surprise to find any group of men with no sexists.at all.
I don’t know about a subculture, but I have come across some very weird remarks from gay men from time to time about women’s bodies. Dan Savage is maybe the most famous for describing a vagina as “a canned ham dropped from a great height”. I once had a gay male housemate tell me to my face that seeing a woman’s private parts made him literally vomit,
He went straight from “object of desire” to “object of loathing” without stopping off at “maybe we are all just humans” first. Y0ikes.
http://www.transadvocate.com/when-ticked-off-gay-men-attack.htm
that’s trans misogyny not cis misogyny but it’s still misogyny (i remember when that controversy broke out too -__- )
Yeah to be clear like DSC says, nobody’s saying that gay men are more likely to be misogynists or nething -_- or that being gay makes you a misogynist… just that it doesn’t mean you can’t be one xD