On the ironically named Happy Bachelors forum, the regular poster who calls himself khankrumthebulgar – and whose real name is Randall Joseph Shake — has been complaining about those of us who’ve pointed out that much MRA and MGTOW rhetoric sounds all too similar to the rhetoric of Norwegian terrorist murderer Anders Breivik. In response to Hugo Schwyzer’s post on the topic at the Good Men Project, he wrote:
This smacks to me of extreme desperation. As they are trying to draw us into a response. They should hear Crickets chirping. … they are in need of traffic, controversy some off the wall unhinged response. When they receive none, it simply means we will not waste the oxygen to answer these absurd and insane accusations. No evidence exists that the MRA or MRM is in any way connected to the Norwegian gunman. IF we were there would be dozens of dead Feminists by now. There is none, hence this is a weak and pathetic attempt to incite violence and is irresponsible on their part. …
If such violence were to happen. After such outrageous accusations, it is Hugo Schwyzer and the Good Menz Project who is financially liable for stoking and promoting extremism in the hopes of generating a violent response. The blood will be on their hands not ours.
You will notice that this argument is identical to that of Angry Harry: if an extremist commits an act of terrorism or violence, don’t blame him or his extremist ideology; blame the people who pissed him off. Taken to its logical extreme, this specious argument would mean blaming the Jews for the Holocaust; after all, they’re the ones who got Hitler so worked up in the first place.
It seems to me that if you don’t want people to associate you with terrorists, you should probably stop talking like terrorists, referring casually to “dozens of dead feminists” and trying to blame the enemy in advance for any violence that comes from your side.
Also, you should probably stop making comments like the following, which were posted in response to Amanda Marcotte’s recent post on Misogyny and Terrorism. The first one, from spocksdisciple, a board moderator, fantasized about a violent backlash that would put women in general and feminists in particular in their supposed place:
[T]he backlash against feminism and it’s misandry will be both awe inspiring and terrifying at the same time.
Modern radical feminism is doomed, any woman sprouting these kinds of statements after the backlash won’t last very long, people and especially men are growing angrier everyday and all these whining losers in the feminist movement is doing to kicking a sleeping bear even harder.
Feminism is so done that women will be lucky if any man bothers to even look at them other then as a piece of meat, the days of the 19th century are going to come back where women either know their place or they’ll suffer the consequences of their actions and arrogance, big daddy gov’t isn’t going to be around to protect the rights of women to act like bitches.
And you probably shouldn’t talk about burning down buildings with people inside them, as khankrumthebulgar (that is, Randall Joseph Shake) does in this comment:
Feminists will be treated like the French Nobility was during the French Revolution. There will be a payback to these Evil Bitches. … As to the Good Mangina Project, they are our enemies. Burn the building to the ground with them in it.
Is he literally talking about burning down a building, or is he speaking metaphorically? In the wake of a tragedy that involved a man literally gunning down the children of his leftist and feminist enemies, khankrumthebulgar’s comments are indefensible either way.
Let me reiterate: these are posts from men who are angry that people have linked them in any way to the Norwegian terrorist. Are they really this lacking in self-awareness, or are they so used to talking in an environment where violent comments about feminists are so common and accepted that they don’t even realize the irony?
I don’t know, and I don’t care. I just wish that those in the MRA and MGTOW movements who are bothered by this kind of talk – and I know there are some who are – would actually step up and declare this sort of shit out of bounds. I’m not holding my breath.
Note: The Happy Bachelors forum is members-only, so the links to the forum won’t work if you’re not a member. Here are screen shots of all the forum comments mentioned in this post, in order. Click to see the full-sized image. I edited several of the comments, but indicated all removed material with ellipses. As you will see the edits did not change the meaning of what was said.
khankrumthebulgar gives his real name
khankrumthebulgar on Hugo Schwyzer (just the portion of the comment that is from him; the rest quotes Schwyzer’s post).
spocksdisciple comment
khankrumthebulgar’s “burn the building” comment
“In reality, mgtow men are discovering men can cook .cook, clean ,nurture themselves. We are not fools we do NOT NEED WOMEN.”
But…what about love and companionship? There’s a lot more to a relationship than depending on gender oriented skills.
Pap1ka I can see your point. If you are on a mgtow blog andd all it is about is defaming and offending women then that is not proper. However, as I mentioned I think men are angry and men have a tough time expressing their emotions,It is not what you say but how you make a point. Yes some women here have stated that men should just go their own way and it is hypocritical to say your boycotting women and then write about them on a blog.Like I said the mens movement is relatively new Papr1ka, Many men for years have not learned how to express their anger constructively without offending .Many men have died young from heart attacks from stuffing their felling or being rageful,Hopefull Papr1ka as the Mens movement grows men will learn how to express their anger at women without offending.Also maybe a lot of these men( not all) are “threatening” to go their own way or have just gotten newly divorced or a painful breakup and are angry and raw. As for me, I believe in order to effect change, any extreme movement must deal with the other side. I meam women are half the population, you cannot avoid women. So some mgtow men will engage in a civil debate and dialogue with feminists(both female and male) to possibly effect change,I happen to be interested in gender and sex roles and find the topic interesting.I realize you cannot debate with anyone screaming and emotionally rageful.Feministst and MRA’a should debate in a civil way without screaming or shaming at each other. We can agree to disagree. Lastly.Papr1ka you made a good point that men have not been raised with good deomestic skills, well thank you. I implore women (feminists and non feminists)to encourage young men to learn domestic skills so if they choose to not marry.become divorced or widowed they wont feel helpless. Papr1ka, there are some mrm websites that are more moderate and allow women to post(just google). Post on these sites how you feel. Maybe you can change many men who are threatening to abandon women minds. If more and more men choose to boycott women and marriage it could have disastrous effects on our families and society. Maybe some women even feminists can influence some mgtow men with the right communication skills can change mgtow mens minds and they will not boycott women and marriage. Who really knows? I’m just being hopeful Papr1ka, since this can be a very depressing topic dealing with the gender war and marriage crsis in our country thse days.
Samuel, I don’t think very many men have joined you and your compatriots in this boycott. Certainly not enough for women to feel the effects. If you have to point out that you’re boycotting, it’s probably not particularly effective.
And, really, if some man feels that being with women doesn’t work for him, why should women try to change his mind?
Nobinyahu, You know what, who cares in the end? You quote” And, if some man feels that being with women doesn’t work for him, why should women try to change his mind?” . Well, I guess your right.Listen, I happen to be off from work and happen to come across this website and found this dialogue interesting.I as an MGTOW male do not spend every day every minute on the internet criticizing women. I work, I have a life. However, since I rarely talk to women besides work and in public places, and I try to avoid women, I felt I wanted to dialogue or debate today. I now will end this topic(I really mean it this time,lol I am now tired and have to get up for work tomorrow morning, We men will go our own way. You women as Nobinayamu stated don’t need to or really want to I guess change our minds.This is why Gender separatism is best. As Nobinayamu implied women don’t care about men.All I can say as Holly said when she said our MGTOW movement is small/ Look at the MGTOW/manosphere these days.Movements such as MGTOW< Happier abroad,boycott American women,Marriage strike,Happer abroad. More and more younger men these days are choosing not to marry until the divorce and child cusotdy laws change. The manosphere is not 10 or 2o men. My first cousin who I bunked into recently and is in the wedding industry stated weddings are declining. Now I now the economy has to do with it also but I am stating that this mens mgtow movement is growing and is some sort of backlash movement. It will impact socirty and gender relations.Nite Nite all, I'm going to bed,
No, Samuel, I never said that women don’t care about men. I never even implied such a thing. I said that women don’t care if a particular man chooses to disassociate himself from women because he doesn’t want to be involved with them romantically. Big difference.
You don’t want to be involved with women, and I think that’s terrific. I wish you the best of luck and have absolutely no desire to change your mind. Enjoy yourself.
I, and all the other people, who value our friendships and romantic relationships with members of the “opposite” sex will continue to go our own way as well.
On marriage rates, from the ABS:
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Products/1D63A0059ECDFDCFCA2577ED00146123?opendocument
In 2009, the crude marriage rate was 5.5 marriages per 1,000 estimated resident population, compared with 7.0 marriages per 1,000 estimated resident population in 1989.
Between 1989 and 2001, the crude marriage rate declined from 7.0 to 5.3. However, after a slight increase between 2001 and 2004, there has since been little variation.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/91f72cb52e908514ca25709f0000a6a8/1d63a0059ecdfdcfca2577ed00146123/Body/0.33C!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif
Are you counting de facto as well as married?
If women don’t NEED men, and men don’t NEED women …doesn’t that just mean that men and women are interacting and dating only for the sheer voluntary pleasure of one another’s company? Heterosexual couples can now be held together purely by joy and affection, not financial or biological necessity, right?
Not exactly a tragic state of affairs in my book!
As a woman who doesn’t “need” men, the men in my life can be reassured that I am with them only because I love them, not because I am using them for some purpose. And I’m likewise only interested in men who don’t “need” me either — I want them to want me, and adore me, and enjoy my company, but I also want them to be autonomous functional adults just like I am, who choose to spend time with me. That’s free and feminist love.
bravo Bagelsan!
Women don’t need men per se, nor vice versa. But lots of humanity is in those groups. If you just go about your day, encountering people, functioning, you are going to run into both men and women. And some of them will have connections you need or that you love. Maybe not romantic ones. But it isn’t a generic “woman” or “man” you need, but that person. I don’t love or need some generic “sister”, there are plenty of people who live just fine without sisters, but I love and need my sisters, those two people, specifically (and my brother, ditto). Making sure that none of the people you ever love or connect with are women (or, in the other case, men), takes a lot of work at creating exclusion.
The problem with MRA’s or MGTOW’s is that they seem to not understand or are biased about women in general. As darksidecat said, it’s an awful lot of work to avoid women when they’re 50% of the population. Avoid romantic pursuits maybe, but don’t avoid women altogether. Regard them as a fellow human beings rather than an alien species. If you let women into your life just a teensy bit, even if it’s only at work or whatever, you might be able to understand them a little more and become a little more relaxed around them. It will take a bit of time to fully trust women depending on how far along the MGTOW scale you are. I have a lot of male friends whom I’ve seen get hurt by women and they just pick themselves up after without the need to hate all women everywhere. People get hurt all the time, regardless of gender. It’s just one of those things in life. I know I sound like a bit of a doucehbag but guys don’t lose faith. All this woman hate is so unnecessary.
Oh, and Samuel? A man should have “domestic skills” not in case he gets widowed or divorced — a man should have “domestic skills” and do domestic work, period. And don’t be cute: laundering your socks and underwear, taking your shirts to the dry cleaner’s, vacuuming the carpet and making a bowl of spaghetti with tomato sauce isn’t exactly rocket science; “I am not doing shit around the house because I don’t know how” is the usual way in which traditionalist men get their overworked, exasperated and sleep-deprived wives to cave in and fucking do everything themselves. Learn how to take care of yourself and others the same way women do — but getting off your ass and doing some work. Leaving all the domestic chores to your wife is a recipe for divorce. A wife isn’t a servant. Sure, a newly married woman who hasn’t yet been worked like a farm horse may be proud that she doesn’t keep track of who takes out the garbage most often — but beyond the honeymoon, having to wipe a grown man’s ass and wait on him hand and foot as if he were an infant gets very annoying fast; and the unfairness of having to put in a second shift after a day of hard work while your spouse puts his feet up with perfect entitlement becomes readily apparent.
And incidentally: this isn’t a way to treat one’s mother, either. I’ve known young men who regard their mothers as unpaid hotel maids and cooks, and it’s despicable. Your mother probably won’t divorce you, but still: one of the most disgusting things you can do is take advantage of your relationships and the love someone else has for you to sit on your ass and do nothing. And so, married or not: clean up after yourself; make breakfast; and don’t be a leech. I don’t see what’s so confusing about that.
NWOSlave: There is no WGTOW movement. Enough said. Also: lackey service isn’t compensation for friendship. Proper compensation for friendship is friendship. Your belief that a lifetime of laundering dirty underwear is “payment” for a man saying something nice once in a while once again demonstrates what a fucked up view of relationships you have. “Leadership”, my foot.
Clarence: It helps make the case against them and Amanda Marcotte is one of their biggest and easiest targets yet even though it would seem to cost them nothing to repudiate her, they don’t.
Cost nothing? You aren’t asking, in that sentence for an agreement that the Duke Team was innoncent and some were overzealous in their defense of the prosecution. You are asking for “Feminists” to say Amanda Marcotte isn’t acceptable. That her style of feminism is somehow wrong.
Who will be next? Because that’s the way you are playing the game right now. You aren’t really disavowing Breivik. His use of cut and paste doesn’t mean he didn’t believe all that. It actually is more supportive of the idea he was being shaped by MRA philosophy than it would be had he done all the writing himself (I can see the arguments on Angry Harry, and Peter Nolan and The Spearhead now, look, the feminists are so evil and pervasive that this guy, in Norway came to the same conclusions independently. What he did was bad, but it only shows that if feminism isn’t stopped more men will be driven to this sort of behavior because of feminism.
But you have this hair up your ass about it?ch so that when people in this very thread say they disagree with her that’s ignored, or dismissed with the very sort of goalpost moving I was alluding to (you don’t want her comments on Duke disavowed, you want her completely dismissed, which isn’t what you are asking for Angry Harry. We are supposed to merely say these words were untoward. He was, “venting”).
Why? I suspect it’s because she has some traction, and you don’t. Because the things she believes in (equality for all) your movement doesn’t. I don’t demand perfection in my allies. I’m not going to throw them under the bus for making mistakes. But I don’t think the comparison to saying someone is probably guilty of a crime compares to killing 76 people, to pr SO muove a political point in the hope of causing an armed revolution to wipe out feminists and immigrants.
That you do, speaks volumes.
Joanna wrote”The problem with MRA’s or MGTOW’s is that they seem to not understand or are biased about women in general. As darksidecat said, it’s an awful lot of work to avoid women when they’re 50% of the population. Avoid romantic pursuits maybe, but don’t avoid women altogether. Regard them as a fellow human beings rather than an alien species. If you let women into your life just a teensy bit, even if it’s only at work or whatever, you might be able to understand them a little more and become a little more relaxed around them. It will take a bit of time to fully trust women depending on how far along the MGTOW scale you are. I have a lot of male friends whom I’ve seen get hurt by women and they just pick themselves up after without the need to hate all women everywhere. People get hurt all the
time, regardless of gender. It’s just one of those things in life. I know I sound like a bit of a doucehbag but guys don’t lose faith. All this woman hate is so unnecessary.
I saw your comment this morning and I was pleasantly “shocked. I expected more mocking and criticism of my stance as an MGTOW. However, Joanna you actually have a point”all this women hate is so unnecessary”. Jonnaa as an MGTOW male it suprised me . You said “guys don’t lose faith”. Well I believe many men (especially a growing number of younger men) are so bitter at women.Many men today are bitter at the institution of marriage, bitter at being portrayed as sex crazed pigs who cannot cook clean and sits on the couch as a fat couch potato. Joanna, many men today DESPERATELY NEED TO KEEP THE FAITH. Other than that life is hopeless and depressing). Joanna I really did not expect a feminist to be supportive of an mgtow male. I am new to all this gender dialogue on the internet but perhaps if feminist women who want to offer some support and encourage mgtow men should post on blogs so men can actually see that some feminists understand them as opposed to criticizing us,mocking us, we just want to be understood. Lastly, Joanna with your words to us mgtow guys “keep the faith”, it may have an impact if you and other feminist women let men know you understand us(even if you dont agree with us). See some women here think many mgtow men are only “threatening” to go mgtow,Well maybe there is truth to that. The men who have fully gtow generally lead quiet lives called ghosting, these men have dropped out of society and marriage. But for many young men if they heard a feminist understand them and not mock them they may change their minds and not go their own way and date women and get married. Joanna, letting mgtow guys know to “keep the faith” is important. Men need to keep the faith. Many men would be shocked to hear a feminist encourage them and tell to keep faithful. The mgtow men will be also pleased to hear encouragement, hope, and support from feminists as opossed to mocking. Guys need hope thee days.
Samuel: All we are asking for as MGTOW men is Gender Separatism. If MGTOW men are bitter at women, and even some feminists are bitter at men, We MGTOW say let us separate.
Who’s stopping you? I mean it. If that’s what you want to do how are “women” preventing you?
Personally, I own my own Architectural firm and am not some stupid male pig buffoonn, and many other MGTOW men are successful,handsome, not “creepy” guys like womes say.
This is a bit different. Being good-looking /= being free of creepiness. Having a business /= not being stupid (as regards personal interaction), or being a “male pig buffoon. I am not saying these things are true of you, but merely pointing out they are not related.
Victoria von Syrus: Point of Information: Marcotte’s views on the conception of Jesus isn’t blasphemy, it’s heresy. It’s common for people to think the one is the other, but blasphemy is actually pretty rare, and hard to do.
It’s a pretty hard thing to commit, actually. Not only are the requirements for blasphemy sort of strange, but the modern mindset isn’t geared toward it.
But I digress.
Samuel, I don’t know about other feminists, but I do not want to go on MGTOW websites. I understand what you’re saying about feminists reaching out to the angry, bitter men on those sites, but I do not believe it is necessary for us to do so. For one thing, simply being a woman on a MGTOW message board will open oneself up to a barrage of insults and verbal abuse, let alone describing oneself as a feminist. That is a situation where I don’t want to take the higher ground and be insulted while I implore men to keep the faith. I don’t want to go down to that level and be rude either, taking the lower ground. I think the best option is to ignore MGTOW. They can live in the world like the rest of us, look around, and realize women are normal people with strengths and flaws just like men. It is not the job of feminists to fix MGTOW. That’s something they need to do for themselves.
I’m not trying to be insulting here either, but I do think you are overestimating the size and effect of your movement. When I explained the philosophy of MGTOW to my husband, he said he never heard of it, but that it sounds like the men doing that are overreacting to some bad encounters they had with women in the past. I’ve had terrible boyfriends before, but I never decided to swear off on all men. I just picked myself up after bad breakups, and learned from the experience to help me find a better man for me.
If men are choosing to stay single because that’s what makes them happy, good for them. Not everyone wants or needs to be in LTRs. If they are choosing to stay single just to spite women, then that is not going to be that effective. They are unlikely to get much of a reaction from women other than indifference.
That might be because “many” men conflate feminism with traditionalism, if not completely reversing them or embracing traditionalism for the ways in which it benefits and privileges men while blaming feminism for the ways in which traditionalism does harm to men.
Portrayals spurred on by traditionalist thought, as Amused pointed out earlier, “I am not doing shit around the house because I don’t know how” is the usual way in which traditionalist men get their overworked, exasperated and sleep-deprived wives to cave in and fucking do everything themselves. “Many” men today are bitter at the institution of marriage because they want the benefits (to men) of traditionalist gender roles minus the negatives (to men) of being in keeping with traditionalist gender roles.
Although feminism has and does focus more on the harms that traditionalism has done and continues to do to women, that doesn’t mean that feminists don’t recognize the harms that traditionalism has done and continues to do to men. But feminism cannot lessen the harms that traditionalism does to men without lessening some of the benefits it affords men, because the harms and benefits are intertwined.
Kendra I do see a lot anti male comments on feminist blogs. In fact some feminist blogs do not allow men to post or join. That is not fair either Kendra. I do not as well like you want to go on an opposite gender blog and be insulted. I hear what you saying.How about feminists who support some issues that mgtow men/mrm men like a few here have said they support men starting their own blog ? This way some many men in the manosphere may be enlightened that some feminists support some mens issues and care about mens equality and welfare. Most of the feminist blogs I have seen on the web are hateful towards men.Some call us dogs or pigs.
However on the other hand as Kendra said”If men are choosing to stay single because that’s what makes them happy, good for them. Not everyone wants or needs to be in LTRs. If they are choosing to stay single just to spite women, then that is not going to be that effective. They are unlikely to get much of a reaction from women other than indifference”
Okay Kendra if that is what you say Men will go their own way, and women will go their own way. I doubt most of these men would care. Many men have “bailed out” on women and now lead quiet, “ghost” like, single lives and you never jear about these guys.These guys have gone their own way because of indifference to them. These ghost guys do not go on the internet. They were normal,successful well rounded,, heterosexual men who got hurt by women and dropped out(like my friend who became a monk). In a way What a waste? these could have been good boyfriends and husbands for females.Nobody cared,.What a waste these guys?(I say this because I have heard a few(not all) women stae about handsome gay men tongue in cheek “what a waste”). The same can be said about these mgtow, what a waste? Thanks Kendra
@Amused
“NWOSlave: There is no WGTOW movement. Enough said. Also: lackey service isn’t compensation for friendship. Proper compensation for friendship is friendship. Your belief that a lifetime of laundering dirty underwear is “payment” for a man saying something nice once in a while once again demonstrates what a fucked up view of relationships you have. “Leadership”, my foot.”
Feminism is the promotion of WGTOW. A lifetime service of a man to meet a womans needs physically, emotionally, mentally, financially will be returned by………………..? Men are natural leaders, when you lobby to hand that role over to Big Daddy to build your patriarchy demonstrates a womans need to be led.
——————————————–
@Kendra, the bionic mommy
“If men are choosing to stay single because that’s what makes them happy, good for them. Not everyone wants or needs to be in LTRs. If they are choosing to stay single just to spite women, then that is not going to be that effective. They are unlikely to get much of a reaction from women other than indifference.”
Between MGTOW, MRAs, PUA, etc; it seems there are loads of deffering mens movements. Maybe its time for women to stop looking in the mirror at their reflection and look inside themselves. Perhaps its not men that are the problem.
Well, there’s No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz? for one.
Samuel: The men quietly going their own way are not, “a waste”. If they are content with their lives, and doing it because that is the path to their happiness, then they are fulfilled. That’s not a waste.
Are there women who might like to date/sleep with/establish an LTR/marry them? Perhaps. Is is sad for them? Yep. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. There are women who would like to go out with Matthew Broderick.
Not gonna happen. He’s off the market. It’s that he went his own way, and that involved getting married.
Lots of people are going to be disappointed that the object of a crush is unavailable to them. Why isn’t relevant to that. There is no functional difference between a man who is being abstinent (or celibate) and one who is being faithful to his partner(s).
“Feminism is the promotion of WGTOW. A lifetime service of a man to meet a womans needs physically, emotionally, mentally, financially will be returned by………………..? Men are natural leaders, when you lobby to hand that role over to Big Daddy to build your patriarchy demonstrates a womans need to be led.”
Well…I can’t speak for all women, but I don’t look at a man as a vehicle by which I can have certain needs met. Personally, I think that all adults should be able to look after themselves with regard to cooking, cleaning, home repair, yard work, car maintenance, general happiness and so on. I’m not suggesting that people ought to be best suited to solitude, but that people ought to be self-sufficient and capable of pursuing happiness without depending entirely on another person to do so. If all you see when you look at a prospective intimate partner is the sum of what services they bring to the table in a relationship…you’re doing it wrong.
In a successful relationship, both parties ought to be meeting physical, emotional and mental needs equally. If the burden of fulfilling all of those needs falls on one party alone, then that isn’t fair.
As far as finances go, I guess that depends. Some people are happy taking upon all of the burden of bringing home the bacon, other people prefer to share in the responsibility, it is just a matter of what one is most comfortable with doing. In my relationship, I bring home the bulk of the income. My fiance has been laid off for awhile, so I’ve picked up another job to help support us. It doesn’t bother me because I like being out and about and interacting with other people, and I know that he’s at least trying to find work. If he doesn’t find a job, it’s not like I’m going to dump him over it. As long as we make ends meet, I’m content.
Arguing about the role of government in people’s lives and in society is another topic. There are arguments for and against expanding the role of government made compellingly by both men and women, and I don’t consider it to be, on the whole, a gender-related issue. Personally, I have a utilitarian take on the matter. Beyond that, I don’t think that it is a relevant topic of discussion for this thread. Especially considering that the initial gist was focused on the violent comments to which David was drawing attention to.
A lifetime service of a man to meet a womans needs physically, emotionally, mentally, financially will be returned by………………..?
Have you perhaps confused “women” with “cats” here? :p