Happy day! Susan Walsh has drawn another diagram! Loyal readers of Man Boobz will recall the last time that Walsh, a would-be relationship expert who blogs at Hooking Up Smart, tried her hand at diagram making. It wasn’t pretty. In an attempt to sketch out the economic costs of sluthood, Walsh cobbled together an extravagantly convoluted mess of a flow-chart based on little more than a few bad assumptions and what she insisted was common sense.
This time, Walsh attempts to chart how the sexual revolution has transformed dating, borrowing her argument largely from some dude called Frost who blogs about sex and relationships and PUA bullshit at Freedom Twenty-Five.
Back in the old “leave it to Beaver” days, Frost argues, virtually all men and women paired off efficiently with partners who exactly matched their level of hotness, as charted on the infamous ten-point scale beloved of pickup artists and other such creatures. Fives married fives, nines married nines, and even lowly ones were able to find true love and hot ugly sex with others as unfortunate as they were. As Walsh puts it, attempting to make all this somehow sound vaguely scientific:
This system worked pretty well in achieving equilibrium with respect to SMV (sexual market value).
Naturally, neither Frost nor Walsh offer any evidence that any of this was true. Which only makes sense, since it, er, wasn’t.
Let’s set that aside for a moment and move on to our current fallen state, post-sexual revolution. Now, apparently, a small minority of hot dudes score all the chicks, from nines on down to threes. Everyone else spends their lonely nights alone with their hands and a choice of vibrator or fleshlight.
Here’s where the diagram comes in. It’s a doozy:
Now, Walsh doesn’t actually explain how she knows this (or, rather believes it, since it clearly is not true), or why exactly she thinks the sexual revolution is to blame. But Frost does, sort of. With the sexual revolution, he argues,
the social convention of monogamy starts to break down. Women are free to do what they want, and they quickly realize that the men they can persuade to have short-term sexual relationships with are much, much more attractive than the men willing to marry them. Attractive men are free to eschew marriage, and instead maintain a harem of rotating friends-with-benefits and one-night stands. Super-attractive men (professional athletes, rock stars, bloggers) can spend every night with a different coterie of young, attractive women, railing lines off their ass cheeks and banging them senseless.
Sounds great for men. And not too bad for women either, who get to shag NHL players and bloggers instead of their ho-hum husbands.
Wait a minute. “… and bloggers?” Bloggers are now the alpha males? I wish I’d known this sooner!
But every woman who elects to join a harem, must necessarily leave a lonely man behind in the great mating scramble. … The men at the bottom are left to their RPGs and porn.
So there you have the effects of the sexual revolution on men: Great for the few, awful for the teeming masses.
Well, there’s a certain logic to that argument. It’s just not, you know, true.
Walsh and all the manosphere dudes who’ve convinced themselves that 80% of men have been left sexless have it backwards: as a handy FAQ at the Kinsey Institute points out, only about 10 percent of men don’t have sex during any given year. The average frequency of sex ranges from more than 100 times a year for those in their teens and twenties to about 70 times a year for those in their 40s.
But what about the ladies? Frost explains that they suffer too, especially those unfortunate enough to be mega-hotties. Frost seems to base this conclusion almost entirely on the sexual history of one Betty Draper. This seems a very small sample size to me. Also, she’is fictional. But that doesn’t stand in Frost’s way:
What about the top woman? The ultimate hottie? Previously, she had the top man all to herself. She literally could not have asked for anything more, assuming as I do that women naturally gravitate toward sleeping with the one man who is their best option at a given time, while men are only as faithful as their options. Suddenly, her man is beset by hussies, plying him with offers of cheap sex. How does Betty Draper feel about the breakdown of monogamy in her world? …
Now [the top women] must choose between sharing, or settling for a man far below her previous catch. Meanwhile, uglier women can choose between monogamy with a man far above her previous level, or a shared slice of one of the top men. She is unequivocally better off, as the hotter women are unequivocally worse off.
Frost concludes:
The Sexual Revolution harms attractive women, and unattractive men. It benefits unattractive women, and attractive men.
Naturally, none of this is the fault of men. It is, Frost and Walsh apparently agree, the fault of all those mid-level bitches slutting it up with the top men. It’s all their fault that the ladies at the top and bottom are getting left high and dry.
Indeed, it’s high time that the hottest hotties stood up for their rights, Frost argues in a second blog post:
It never seems to occur to the hot girls of the world that the sexual revolution is the cause of their troubles. Without it, the best that a top man could do is find a top woman, and devote his life to her. In our present dystopia, he can find that top woman, and rip her heart and soul to pieces by maintaining a harem of flings on the side.
If it wasn’t for the legions of female 7′s and 8′s throwing themselves at the male 9′s, the female 9′s could have their men all to themselves. But in the world as it is, they will always be competing with the omnipresent availability of cheap and easy sex.
Were the hot women to regain their hot pride, sluts and feminists alike would quake in their boots:
The greatest fear of the feminists is that desirable women like yourselves will wake up the lies they’ve been fed, embrace their feminine modesty, and cast the harsh light reality on of the fat, shrill, used-up slutwalkers and middle-aged divorcees.
What of the not-quite-hotties? Walsh has some harsher advice for all those “mediocre sluts” out there riding that alpha asshole cock carousel. She writes:
For less attractive women, an objective assessment of market value is essential. That can only be realized by evaluating which men are interested in dating you rather than banging you.
In other words: mid-level ladies, you’re still losers. Eventually, you asses will get fat, your skin will get wrinkly, and the alpha assholes will grow tired of banging you. So what are you poor gals to do? Walsh offers this grim assessment:
These are the hard truths of the Post Sexual Revolution era. There are a few winners, and many losers. It is difficult to see how equilibrium can ever be regained. For now at least, your only option is to think carefully and realistically about your personal life goals. Make sure the choices you’re making get you closer to them.
(Confidential to Susan Walsh: You do know that using terms like “equilibrium,” like you’re some sort of sexual economist, doesn’t actually make your bullshit true?)
Given that everything in Frost and Walsh’s posts here is such unmitigated bullshit, I think I have some better advice for women of all hotness levels (if they haven’t already figured this out for themselves): stop taking relationship advice from a woman who wants you to hate yourself.
And speaking of bad choices: those smileys? Oy. Strive for elegant simplicity, not tacky clutter.
NOTE: Chuck on Gucci Little Piggy has written a response of sorts to this post. I’ve replied on his blog here. But there is something distressing going on there: Someone has posted several rude comments there under the name “Man Boobz.” THAT PERSON IS NOT ME. If any of you are responsible, STOP IMMEDIATELY. I’ve asked Chuck to ban that person and delete the comments.
EDITED TO ADD: Chuck changed the name of the commenter to “not man boobz.” That makes sense to me.
Didja ever maybe think ya get paid what you’re worth?
You don’t actually have to make an argument to dismiss unsubstantiated claims. Apparently the Gucci Little Piggy person is too stupid to recognize that.
Rutee, exactly. It’s as if someone said “since the moon is made of cheese, let’s try mining that cheese.”
And I responded, “the moon isn’t made of cheese.”
And someone else said, but you haven’t offered an argument against mining the moon.
Thank you Chuck for changing the commenters’ name.
Does that twit think that telling someone to stop crying makes him a badass or something? I’d like to see these people act like this in real life. Except, you know, they wouldn’t.
Fuck MRAs, that’s pretty much it, ascribing emotional behavior to other people while disdaining it themselves makes them “tough” or some bullshit like that. Empathy, compassion, all that sort of thing is weakness to them.
Rutee,
Susan Walsh laid out a rudimentary model for what most people agree is true of the modern sexual marketplace. I think most would agree that the group of people with the most sex partners are probably men while it is also true that more men make up the sexless as well. It should go without saying that the average woman has many more options than the average man. Do you dispute that? If you don’t, then Susan’s diagram seeks to show how that works and why. For some reason, though, it’s being held to some high academic standard here whereas all of feminist theory is a priori argumentation. And when non-feminists say “prove it” you resort to arguments about patriarchy and hidden coercion.
Either way, the bulk of Futrelle’s argument was that “Susan Walsh is stupid nyah nyah”, but that’s the Futrelle way.
Futrelle was getting a little shrill about it and telling me what I had to do with my blog. That’s not the way to ask for something. Then he questions my decency and all of that. But whatever.
You’re welcome Futrelle.
“Either way, the bulk of Futrelle’s argument was that “Susan Walsh is stupid nyah nyah”, but that’s the Futrelle way.”
Did you actually read the posts? David lays out exactly why Susan is wrong.
Chuck, here is what I said to you: “Please ban whoever it is.”
You refused, so I said this:
I know, I know. What a shrill comment!
Piggy, it’s funny, for someone who accuses other people of being “shrill” and “crying”, all it takes is a simple “please ban whoever it is” and “I would like you to ban that person” to get you over here all “DOOON’T TELL ME WHUT TO DO ON MY BLOG” with your shorts in a knot about it.
redlocker:
his post is basically requoting what Walsh and Frost say and then adding in his derisive comments.
He cites a couple of stats. One is that guys in their teens and twenties have sex *on average* 100 times per year. But that stat doesn’t say anything about the distribution of sex among all men. If you have two guys and one has sex 200 times a year while another has sex 0 times per year then their average is 100 sex acts in the year.
Futrelle assumes that Walsh was actually making the case that only 8-10 scacle males have sex. The diagram was drawn that way to make the point clear. It is constrained and not exact, but that’s the nature of models.
Susan wrote that over at her place to make a point and then Futrelle drags it over here and holds it up as some sort of offering to his people here.
As for the shrillness of the other exchange, I told David that i don’t ban people and then he tells me I need to. It’s usually not kosher to tell people what to do on their blogs. We go tit for tat, whatever. Then he plays the decency card on me. But I changed it, so now what? Besides, it seems to be a person who comes to this blog so I’d be happy to send David the IP if he wants to see if it matches any of his commenters.
I *am* curious if it matches any of his commenters :3
I just assume everybody assumes everybody is me xD
“Susan Walsh laid out a rudimentary model for what most people agree is true of the modern sexual marketplace. ”
No she didn’t. Models have predictive power. They say how things will emerge in the future, based on the conditions we’ve observed now. She proposed a social structure to dating, but not a model.
Further, she didn’t provide any evidence or data that actually substantiated the basis for her structure. She made a series of fact claims, and she did not back any of them up. That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without the same.
“It should go without saying that the average woman has many more options than the average man. Do you dispute that? ”
I see no reason to believe this is true. In fact, the last time your idiot brigade showed up around here and tried to substantiate it using OKCupid statistics, the statistics indicated a trend towards the opposite, although not a very strong one.
New troll and I’ve missed it? At least he doesn’t seem to have flounced yet. *Checks if he’s in the forum*
@Rutee I also suspect “average” is being presumed differently for men and women…. xD
Rutee:
a globe is a model for the actual Earth. does a globe “predict” boundaries and geography or is a model also just a representation of a certain object or system? a model can predict but a model can also represent that current state of whatever thing is being modeled.
Susan wrote a piece presenting a model of something that her and her readers (and me and a lot of other people) feel represents the true state of sociosexual affairs. I mean, it didn’t really require proof, but then Futrelle came over and tried to refute it. Therefore, the burden of proof is on him. He didn’t provide much in the way of proof – unless you count sniping at choice passages and ridicule can stand in for proof.
Finally, I’m wondering what your demographic is. Man/woman, young/old. You need only go to a bar, club, the grocery store, Facebook/Myspace/Craigslist to see that women have many, many, many more options available to them than men of similar status. My girlfriend could have sex with probably 10 times more men than I could women. That’s just a rough estimate.
Rutee:
also, what post did that discussion about OKCupid take place?
Rutee’s talking about this
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/comment-page-12/#comment-35194
xD
@Pam
“-Over 60% of the people that graduate from college are women.
-Women make 93-95% of what men make for the same amount of work and experience (source: http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf. You have to copy from the http to the pdf at the ending.).
-Young childless women are beginning to make more money than young childless men in large urban cities.
-83% of women get full child custody in the divorce (let’s not forget alimony and child support).
-93% of work related deaths are from men.
-98% of war related deaths are from men.
-The laws surrounding domestic abuse are entirely in favor of women even though around 40% of domestic abuse is by women.”
————————————————
Point #1 is pure misogyny. Everyone knows Big Daddy Title IX laws would have immediately rectified any inequality. As if education isn’t already skewed towards men.
Point #2 is pure gospel.
Point #3 misogyny of course. Ahem, Women are victims.
Point #4, everyone knows the title primary caretaker trumps the title of father. Also, as any three year old can tell you shared parenting is the default. Just another misogynist lie to make women look evil. Poor men, wah, wah, wah.
Point #5 & 6, they’re not really men dying, they’re miners, workers and military personel. MRAs, always getting their panties in a bunch. WE hunted mamouths, we died as lumberjacks and miners and loggers and blacksmiths, in wars. We built society. Boo fuckin hoo. Men oppressed women is all you’ve done.
Point #7, how long must we endure the lies that women commit domestic violence? If men were victims of DV, women would be sent to prison for DV and Big Daddy would have an equal number of shelters for men. Since women dont go to jail for DV and there aren’t DV shelters for men that means it doesn’t happen.
“a globe is a model for the actual Earth. does a globe “predict” boundaries and geography or is a model also just a representation of a certain object or system? a model can predict but a model can also represent that current state of whatever thing is being modeled.”
Susan Walsh seems to bill herself as an economist of sex. In economics, a model is a specific term that does in fact denote a very complex and ornate, frequently wrong but still interesting and enormous set of calculations that attempt to predict future conditions based on present factors. So yes, using model in a context related to her does sort of imply a predictive mathematical and social model, on par with those of normal economics, not a primitive chart that attempts to poorly map out ‘common wisdom’.
“Finally, I’m wondering what your demographic is. Man/woman, young/old. You need only go to a bar, club, the grocery store, Facebook/Myspace/Craigslist to see that women have many, many, many more options available to them than men of similar status. My girlfriend could have sex with probably 10 times more men than I could women. That’s just a rough estimate.”
That’s interesting, I implicitly gave you a chance to actually substantiate your fact claims with studies, and you instead chose to assert that this is obviously true based on your wild guesses of your girlfriend’s chances with other men. As I said, asserted without evidence, dismissed without evidence; your bullshit deserves nothing more than a wave of my hand and a “Bah”.
Where the idiot brigade from the MRAs showed up is of no consequence; here is the source for their statistics.
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/comment-page-12/#comment-35194
Very interesting, this is. What I think surprised me most was how perceptions of hotness varied by gender. The response rate based on hotness, not so surprising, but the perceptions legit surprised me.
Incidentally, if you want to play the anecdata game, my girlfriend’s chances are much lower than mine, what with being a kinsey 6 nerd. As it happens, not all women and men are straight.
Chuck, modeling the earth as a globe can be predictive. For example, you can predict that if you keep going west you will eventually go all the way around the globe and end up where you started. If you model the earth as a flat plane, you would be stunned to find yourself back in the same place. Susan Walsh is basically the dating-guru equivalent of a flat-earther.
Anyway, I gave 2 stats in my piece, the one you mentioned, plus the % of males who have sex at some point in a year, which was 90%.
So we know that the 80%-20% is literally untrue. But let’s assume that what Walsh means that some guys have sex almost never. Let’s say they have sex once a year. If men on average have sex between 70-110 times a year, and 80% of men have sex only once, those Alpha dudes must be fucking pretty much continually. Even the old dudes.
Again, if you have any evidence to offer that supports the 80%-20% thing, or if you have evidence of a similar if less extreme breakdown, let’s see it.
I have no reason whatsoever to take anything Walsh says on faith.
@Rutee
Let me help you out with the equation of why it’s easier for a woman to have sex. If there’s an open hole, someone is bound to fall in, nuff said.
If you roll a log down a hill, it’ll eventually fall into a ditch.
Look, I can make bullshit analogies that aren’t substantiated too!
Obviously NWO is speaking from experience as someone who is incapable of not continuing to dig once he find’s he’s stuck in a hole.