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Links: Michael Kimmel and Amanda Marcotte on masculinity, misogyny and Anders Breivik

The world doesn't need any more macho Nazis

A couple excellent pieces on Anders Breivik and misogyny.

First: The other day I posted a link to a piece by Michael Kimmel on Breivik and the sexual politics of far-right thought. It turned out that the article was a draft that got published prematurely.

Now the final version of the post is officially up at Sociological Images:  A tale of two terrorists redux. Kimmel argues that what we know about Breivik thus far

indicate[s] that … it will be impossible to fully understand this horrific act without understanding how gender operates as a rhetorical and political device for domestic terrorists.

These members of the far right consider themselves Christian Crusaders for Aryan Manhood, vowing its rescue from a feminizing welfare state. Theirs is the militarized manhood of the heroic John Rambo – a manhood that celebrates their God-sanctioned right to band together in armed militias if anyone, or any governmental agency, tries to take it away from them. If the state and capital emasculate them, and if the masculinity of the “others” is problematic, then only “real” white men can rescue the American Eden or the bucolic Norwegian countryside from a feminized, multicultural, androgynous immigrant-inspired melting pot.

Meanwhile, Amanda Marcotte at Pandagon offers some thoughts on Misogyny and Terrorism:

[T]here’s definitely a strong link between misogyny and violence that can’t be denied.  Misogynists are far likelier to be violent people than non-misogynists, which is why rape and wife-beating are such common crimes.  (Domestic violence is the number one cause of injury for women 15-44.)  All bigotry provokes violence at its ends, of course.  This isn’t the Oppression Olympics.  But misogyny and violence go hand in hand so often because misogynists really buy deeply into the idea that women are weak and men are “strong”, by which they mean aggressive.  A steady drumbeat of misogynist thought couldn’t be better designed to reach the unhinged and cause them to lash out violently, all while imagining themselves to be big, tough men who claim they were forced—with “why did you make me do this?” being the battle cry of wife beaters—into violence.

Discuss.

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Sharculese
9 years ago

@molly ren- is that what a baby hippo looks like? because- awwwwwww

FactFinder
9 years ago

I just didn’t want to see anyone waste their time in a “rational debate” that will culminate in you throwing a hissy fit, then subsequently deleting your blog entry and its attendant comments.
You seem to have confused me for a cowardly feminist who blocks off any comments she does not agree with. You know, 90% of all feminist sites and most feminist youtube videos (because commentary is dangerous).
But no, I don’t use feminist techniques because I am not a cowardly liar like you, honey. Good luck trying to “mock” anything which is not radically feminist into submission, that seems to have worked well so far. An encyclopedic knowledge of human nature, right there.
Christ, I feel like a cat farmer in here.

HINDU
HINDU
9 years ago

Re: male rape in prison or out, male and female victims need to unite.

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

Settle, Petal ..

Sharculese
9 years ago

factfinder, if a single thing of your last whinescreed was true, you would have responded to at least one thing where everyone above you called you out for being a dumb dishonest crybaby who was only interested in bullying the terms of debate onto grounds you found comfortable with.

but you didnt, because as everyone predicted/already knew, youre a dishonest whinelord.

nobody cares about your handwaving. sorry.

chuckeedee
chuckeedee
9 years ago

Speaking about crybabies…

and neither granted many rights to women in practice

I shake my head in wonderment and disbelief every time I see references to women being denied “rights” for millennia being trotted routinely by people who clearly don’t understand human nature. They don’t seem to understand that primary nurturers that are provided for occupy a position of privilege, not oppression. The same crap gets churned out without any semblence of taking in the wider picture. As primary nurturers women set the terms upon which their charges grow up to carry forth their memes. What is it about this simple fact of reality that people don’t seem to get?

But what the hell, if feminists want to disempower women and make them look like ridiculous, helpless imbeciles… I object to this triviliazation of women, but what can one do?

The provided-for, like royalty, occupy positions of privilege, while their providers occupy the position of servant. “Oh but women are denied the right to work, that’s why they need to be provided for.” This classic response, predictably trotted out with the women-are-oppressed mantra, really does fail to understand human nature. Bonbon-sucking, soap-watching, child-abusing welfare moms don’t work because they don’t have to and they don’t want to. It’s that simple. The system (culture) gives lounging tubs of lard most everything that they desire… but all these freebies do come at a price in the end. People who are babied from birth into adulthood grow into babies in adult bodies, while those who have no choice but to learn to fend for themselves learn nasty, brutish survival skills.

There is a simple law of the universe, and works like this. Men and women deserve one another. Neither occupies the moral high ground and anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot. Gender supremacists, irrespective of whether they are male-supremacists or feminists, both have it wrong.

Feminists, it’s not always about you. Hitler’s agenda was never to oppress women. Neither was Stalin’s, nor Idi Amin’s, nor any other major figure in history. The Founding Fathers did not have the oppression of women designed into their blueprint for the US Constitution, and neither did the Magna Carta. There are many reasons for history’s events, and it’s not always about the oppression of women. But how do you explain this to babies in adult bodies who never get to understand that it’s not always about them?

Molly Ren
9 years ago

“Bonbon-sucking, soap-watching, child-abusing welfare moms don’t work because they don’t have to and they don’t want to.”

What *is* it with these guys and bonbons?

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

There is a simple law of the universe, and works like this. Men and women deserve one another. Neither occupies the moral high ground and anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

It’s good to have “universal” “laws” that define themselves by “if you disagree, you’re an idiot” XD

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

What’s wrong w/ being a cat farmer? 😀

Molly Ren
9 years ago

You’re really not making a good case for women who have chosen cats over men, chuckeedee. Why on earth would we want to hang out with someone as nasty as ourselves? Cats can be smelly little moochers, but at least they’re cute and double as bed warmers.

Debbie
9 years ago

You know what I love–love meaning complete hatred is when men(or women) was on about how oppression is just “logical” oh no it doesn’t matter how it hurts people or causes suffering…it is only logical that certain people are oppressed…you better suck it up its human nature..well fuck you mister logical…people have a right to not be opressed and a right to be upset about it…they aren’t being whiny just because it doesn’t affect you doesn’t mean other people aren’t affected.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

It’s good to have “universal” “laws” that define themselves by “if you disagree, you’re an idiot” XD

Newton originally wanted to frame his laws of motion like this. Edmond Halley talked him out of it.

chuckeedee
chuckeedee
9 years ago

You’re really not making a good case for women who have chosen cats over men, chuckeedee.

That’s not my intention. I’d rather suggest that men should let women stay with their cats 🙂

eilish
eilish
9 years ago

Flufffinder, if you are going to steal my words, use them in context.
Jeez.

Pecunium
9 years ago

In Chuckadee’s world women are on top because they don’t have any options. The get to stay home and wash the clothes, the dishes and the floor; prepare the food, change the diapers.

If they don’t want to, but are forced to anyway, it’s all good… because men provide for them, and that makes them the powerful ones.

Never mind that the law treats them as children, denies most of them property, allows their husbands to rape them; and beat them if they are disobedient, publicly shames them if they are “scolds” and holds them responsible for their husbands debt.

That is as nothing, because the are,”cared for” which makes them the all-powerful.

The men, the one’s who were the only one’s allowed to vote, or make laws, or be doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.,they were the oppressed ones, because they had to support the women; whim the were able to walk away from without penalty.

Must have sucked to be one of those men, what will all the female oppression.

Must be nice to live the now where women have to support themselves and men are finally free.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Pecunium:

I wonder actually. To Chuckadee, are babies basically Gods?

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Objects at rest tend to remain at rest…. you asshole.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

Don’t forget Gallileio when he presented his idea to the pope (forgot who exactly it was…)

“But sir, there is no God in your model!”
“I had no need of such a hypothesis, you salacious, megalomaniacal, pompous bastard of a whore.”

chuckeedee
chuckeedee
9 years ago

The get to stay home and wash the clothes, the dishes and the floor; prepare the food, change the diapers.

Terrible isn’t it? Women are denied the right to be conscripted into wars and to die in them. Women are denied the right to work in mines and to die premature deaths on account of exposure to toxins and soul-destroying environments. Women were denied the right to offer up their lifeboat seats so that at least some men could survive the sinking of the Titanic. Women are forced to work in air-conditioned offices that they win by way of affirmative action, while men must resort to less popular jobs that simply do not attract the AA-prioritized women. Women are forced to pursue arts and women’s-studies degrees at universities, while men luxuriate in engineering, surgery and other hard-science degrees that so unfairly deny access to women. Women are forced to use appliances, in between watching their soaps or swanning around shopping malls, that their providers provide to them in whole-day jobs that they had to compete for against women indulging in the affirmative action gravy train. Shocking. It is indeed so terrible for women. My heart goes out to them all. Poor babies 🙁

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@chuckedee would you say children have privilege over adults? o:

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

chuckeedee, are you thinking of a particular person?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@chuckeedee:

Anyone who is subject to soaps for their enterntainment need more than your heart… They need a dang rescue and aid mission… Those things are absolutely terrible. “My heart goes out to them all” indeed.

FactFinder
9 years ago

Never mind that the law treats them as children, denies most of them property, allows their husbands to rape them; and beat them if they are disobedient, publicly shames them if they are “scolds” and holds them responsible for their husbands debt.
And she misses the point entirely like a stupid bitch. Did you know, little dear, that a man would be held responsible for the crimes his wife committed? Oh, she forgot to mention that. Feminists aren’t all that bright, so I can understand how she overlooked it.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@Kirbywarp So his dream life is to stay at home and watch soap operas…? xD

Pecunium
9 years ago

Women didn’t die in wars? But wasn’t one of the points of Nolan that women and children are legitimate targets (and they aren’t trained to fight, so all they can do is die… swell).

Woman worked in the fields, and on the coal tailings, and in the mills, and the bottling plants (look up the Idris Strike).

Men are forced to drive race cars, and play sports, and be politicians, and CEOS and movie producers and celbrity chefs.

And those men were, and are, forced to take higher wages for the same work.

Poor babies. They suffered so.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@FactFinder:

“Did you know, little dear, that a man would be held responsible for the crimes his wife committed?”

When exactly was this, FF? Cause I seem to recall Pecunium refuting this very idea a while ago.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

… is the FactFinder having trouble finding his facts?

Pecunium
9 years ago

Kirby: I didn’t need to ladt time. Darksidecat beat me to it.

This time I got to do it.

ClioPersephone
ClioPersephone
9 years ago

I realize I’m late to the party but I’d like to point out a couple things to our new trolls.

1) The French Revolution did not occur because of feminism. Women participated in it and were lauded for their efforts. However as the Revolution progressed, the leaders (all male) systematically denied women any rights politically or socially. In fact women in France were much worse off under the Republic and Napoleon then they where beforehand.
2) While someone claimed that women as “nurturers” controlled the upbringing of their children etc. this is not true. Until the 1800s children were viewed primarily as subhuman and not especially valuable except as workers, heirs, or marriage items. Most mothers of the upper or middle classes did not directly raise their children. Instead they were given over to wet nurses, governesses, nannies, and tutors.
3) As for the French Revolution being good or bad, let’s just say that without it modern Western politics would not exist. So while it was bloody and terribly organized, it did have a positive purpose in history.

In short tolls, LEARN YOUR HISTORY BEFORE YOU SPEAK!

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago
VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

NWOSlave:

If none will accept you get a honey badger and stuff it in your ear and hopefully it will eat the hatred part of your brain away. The honey badger can ward off poison by sleeping it off, so it might survive the hateful toxic bile that infects your brain.

I see what you did there.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/honey-badger
Calling you as a Poe.

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

David, if they are dudes in dresses, that makes them manginas, so they count as women anyway 🙂

chuckeedee
chuckeedee
9 years ago

I give up! Oh please, please stop these tales of carnage of female goodness and innocence! I cannot move my hand fast enough to wipe away all the tears streaming down my face! I’m so sorry for having doubted you all! How can I ever make it up to you all! The rawness of your wounds tugs at my heart! I wish I could embrace you all and offer you warmth and succour for the horror of what you’ve been through! I now feel your terrible pain and loss, but as a mere male I realize that I am not worthy to even gaze upon you, let alone hug you all! I am not even worthy of visiting this site! I AM JUST SOOOOOO SORRY… Please forgive me, I hope among hopes that I return in my next life as a woman to make up for all the horrors that my manhood is responsible for! I can’t take it any more! Farewell cruel world! Please, please Dear Goddess make me return as a woman! Make my next thousand lives as a woman, so that I can learn but a fraction of what my poor dear, dear sisters have been through! I am ready for this penitence! Au revoir! A dieu! World so cruel (to women) yet so wonderful (to men)!

comrade svilova
comrade svilova
9 years ago

Wow, Chuckeedee, I think you missed the point. The point wasn’t ‘bow down to women’ but ‘some of the supporting facts for your argument aren’t in fact supported by history.’

chuckeedee
chuckeedee
9 years ago

And wow comrade, I think you missed my point, that selective referencing and credentialism about a past so far removed from us in history that it is impossible to establish its truths and its wider contexts contributes nothing, nada zilch to the debate. You might as well be referencing Walt Disney’s original Mickey Mouse cartoons to prove your point.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Shorter Chuckee… Factses, we don’ need no stinkin’ factses..

ClioPersephone
ClioPersephone
9 years ago

Chuckeedee 223 years is not really that long at all. Globally countries and cultures are still feeling the effects of things that happened 200, 300, and even 500 years before. For example certain African countries are still attempting to recover culturally, politically, and economically from European colonialism. Colonialism occurred within our 223 year spectrum.

Also as comrade svilova pointed out, you completely missed my point. I don’t as a feminist want your pity or want you groveling at my feet. What I want is an acknowledgement of “shit happens” and an agreement to work to make equality a reality now. Of course I won’t hold my breath in your case or in the case of any other MRA.

ClioPersephone
ClioPersephone
9 years ago

And by “shit happens” what I mean is an acknowledgement of “this shit actually happened.”

chuckeedee
chuckeedee
9 years ago

Chuckeedee 223 years is not really that long at all. Globally countries and cultures are still feeling the effects of things that happened 200, 300, and even 500 years before.

We don’t even understand our own contemporary cultures. What business is it of ours to pass judgement on cultures all those years ago?

chuckeedee
chuckeedee
9 years ago

Of course I won’t hold my breath in your case or in the case of any other MRA.Of course I won’t hold my breath in your case or in the case of any other MRA.

I’m not an mra.

ClioPersephone
ClioPersephone
9 years ago

What do you mean by we “don’t understand our own contemporary cultures?” I would point out that through psychology, sociology, and anthropology we have a pretty good grasp on why people do what they do.

Judging historical events isn’t so different from judging the events and actions of people now. I (and anyone else) can look at documents and events and pass judgement based on our own opinions. Also since I’m a historian, I’d say that discussing history and looking at it critically is my business.

Excuse me for mislabeling you. But based on your comments on this thread, I still won’t hold my breath in your case.

chuckeedee
chuckeedee
9 years ago

What do you mean by we “don’t understand our own contemporary cultures?” I would point out that through psychology, sociology, and anthropology we have a pretty good grasp on why people do what they do.

1) Psychology… which version? Freud? Behavioural? Skinner? What context, what set of principles is it that binds them together? Is the brain a computer? How does cognitive science relate to all of this? And philosophy, the phenomenologists and the idealists? Etc;
2) Sociology… what version? Memetics? What’s the nature of desire? How and why do people make the choices they do? How does psychology interface with sociology?
3) History, Anthropology… All framed within the context of white academics peering through the eyes of Trobriand Islanders, Egyptians, Kalahari bushmen, etc. Failure to see WITH the eyes of these folk. For all intents and purposes, people from other cultures are just Anglos with funny pots, pans and artefacts, dark skin, peculiar vocalizations and strange customs;

Margaret Mead and others seemed to have a basic grasp that “something” was afoot with the nature of culture, but really, they failed to grasp it in the end. Sometimes I was impressed with their initial efforts (e.g., addressing the subjectivity/objectivity problem) but ultimately they failed to establish the momentum required to penetrate beyond a superficial level.

Bottom line? No, we definitely, categorically, do not understand culture. The evidence for this is in feminism itself, and feminism’s failure to understand why men and women desire different things and so establish different priorities and different lifestyle choices.

Joanna
9 years ago

“Bottom line? No, we definitely, categorically, do not understand culture. The evidence for this is in feminism itself, and feminism’s failure to understand why men and women desire different things and so establish different priorities and different lifestyle choices.”

That paragraph is so full of fail.

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@Every feminist who resides here

All of you bitching about Peter Nolan getting up votes for his comment. Yet still no one answers my questions from my previous post on this thread about the man with the garbage disposable johnson. You see children, the uproarious laughter by the feminist hosts and the audience of women was the unanimous upvotes. Or was no one hurt? Well, no women anyway. I guess thats all that matters.

And here we have the wonderful Amanda literally cursing out Christians. Tell ya what oh fair minded feminists, replace her screed about the Christian faith with the Jewish faith. Would you be screaming for Jewish blood? Toss that puppy out on the MSM. Wanna place bets on if she’d get fired?

C’mon Dave, I dare ya to put my previous post up for evaluation by “da crew.” I really would like to hear what possibly excuses the gang gives. Or does progressive mean progress for the feminists to the detriment of all men?

darksidecat
9 years ago

Shorter chuckadee: No one can ever understand psychology or culture except me! I know exactly what every man, every woman, and every other desires in all situations! Because I am special like that!

caseymordred
caseymordred
9 years ago

As for men wearing dresses to coal mines, as a matter of fact I do have it on good authority that a lot of…’doings’ went on up there.

http://www.theonion.com/video/joad-cressbeckler-homosexuality-a-necessity-on-col,20844/

chuckeedee
chuckeedee
9 years ago

That paragraph is so full of fail.

Well I’ll be damned. I never thought of that. I would never have expected Joanna what’s-her-name with qualifications in… [?] and experience in… [?] to declare my interpretation a fail. Who’da thunk? I’m so upset. My weekend is ruined! I won’t be able to sleep tonight 🙁

Joanna
9 years ago

Yeah cos even after centuries of psychology and anthropology, no one has a clue about what makes us human. Sheesh.