So here’s the strangest response I’ve seen so far to the massacre in Norway. On Sofiastry, an antifeminist blog that seems to be broadly sympathetic to the “alt” (that is, the “intellectually” racist) right, blogger Sofia complains that feminist bloggers – she cites me and Hugo Schwyzer – are talking about the blatant anti-feminism and misogyny of mass murderer Anders Breivik. “The mendacious corollary they are trying to construct,” she writes, falling into the purple prose Alt-Righters seem drawn to like flies on bullshit, “is that all those opposed to feminist principles must be in league with all sorts of unsavory radicals.”
As I’ve already noted, this is not actually true; Sofia is being, well, mendacious. Yes, I pointed out the similarities between Breivik’s noxious misogynistic beliefs and, well, the noxious misogynistic beliefs of an embarrassingly large number of antifeminists and MRAs. But at no point did I (or, for that matter, Hugo) suggest that these people supported his despicable actions.
After purporting to be shocked – shocked! – that anyone would connect Breivik with the antifeminists of the world, Sofia offers an appreciation of sorts for Breivik’s awful manifesto. Waxing pompous yet again, she writes:
[A]lthough his actions were cruel beyond belief, and committed by a delusional, psychopath driven by his delusions of political grandeur, there is lucidity and sense in much of what he writes. He never seemed to explicitly advocated for a genocide of Muslims within Europe, but superficially claimed that he just wanted to sustain European culture.
So, let’s weigh Breivik’s pros and cons here. CON: He murdered 76 people in cold blood, motivated by a hateful ideology. PRO: He didn’t explicitly call for actual genocide?
Here’s where it gets weird. Really weird.
I feel that Breivik is being tried for more than his cruelty within the feminist community. The fact that he belongs to the privileged group of the white male makes him hate-worthy along with every other privileged white male who might sympathize with his ideology, even if they don’t happen to be psychotic. Breivik exemplifies White Men, even though Osama Bin Laden to the very same liberal ideologues did not represent Every Muslim.
It’s another symptom of our culture that feels it is OK to hold white men to higher standards of political correctness, self-flagellation and martyrdom whilst simultaneously relentlessly berating and mocking them on a cultural level.
Yep, that’s right. We hate Breivik … because he’s a white dude.
She continues on in this vein:
The subtle manifestations of an anti-white male agenda could be expounded upon for some time, even in the sexual sphere. In porn, the genre of cuckolding usually involves black men fucking white women to the dismay of her white husband. Something tells me this wouldn’t be acceptable if a black man were to stand helplessly by while a white male was sexually coercive with a black female.
Somehow we started off talking about mass murder and ended up talking about … cuckolding porn?
What. The. Fuck?
bee,
in regards to your second comment, i was directly responding to a question by someone else. i forget where it is, which was relevant in that context.
shora,
in fairness then, i will redact my statement (re: oslo rape statistics). but i used that in the context of muslims being poorly integrated. so are you saying then, that they are well-integrated? somehow that doesn’t jive well with talk of racial tensions in france and even the UK.
thomas,
but then what’s the solution to the integration issue? i know that there are huge rates of muslim unemployment in france (not sure about other parts of europe). i’m not asking this to be cheeky, but what you think the solution is? because the default lines of distinction always tend to devolve into nationalistic ones and the economy can’t be uniformly stellar in all places.
@Ami Angelwings:
“Actually, it’s been my observation and exp that the ppl who drive the “black dicks in white chicks” thing tend to be white ppl (cuz of the exotification and othering of the black guy, esp when they’re portrayed as being beastial) and they tend to be pretty racist (if the fiction in interracial categories on sites like Literotica are any indication, it’s a fear/attraction thing, it’s so titillating cuz it’s so taboo and scary) xD It’s not like white female feminists are the ones driving that market xD (unless you are! *looks suspiciously* )”
Not-so-funny story from my not-too-distant past.
I used to work in an adult video store years ago. On my two-day weekend, there was a stabbing outside the store, racially motivated, nazi skinhead jerkass stabbed a black guy while shouting racial epithets at him. I come back into work the next day, I’m going through the stack of “movies not yet returned and overdue” boxes and guess what I found? The skinhead’s name on a rental slip. Rubber banded to a stack of six movie boxes. Out of which, ALL SIX of the movies in the stack were of the “black dicks in white chicks” genre. Only way this dirtbag could have been any more in denial is if it were a stack of gay interracial porn instead of straight porn.
Futrelle,
Well now, thanks. I’m actually glad I stumbled across your blog, but obviously won’t be debating anymore, much to your and everybody else’s pleasure I’m sure.
As far as racism goes, frankly I think there was even a blogpost on the JTA about Jews dominating in the forbes 400 list or something. I don’t accept it’s racist to acknowledge these things since I have no problem with jewish overrepresentation, they’re as entitled to prosper and get rich as anybody else. But whatever, I’m off to polish my jackboots and be evil and racist.
Zombie, I totes ninja’d you 😛 Your post was much more coherent though.
“anyway, the beauty of liberalism is that you can have a lot of different sub-ideologies/demographics existing under it harmoniously. that would include conservatism, gays/straights, people of different races, etc. etc. what DOESN’T work is when you have a fundamentally anti-liberal ideology existing in a liberal society. most terrorists, whether we are talking about whites or muslims, are OPPOSED to liberalism, so people with anti-liberal ideologies will NEVER integrate into society because society IS liberal. certain demographics. belief systems, etc. — at least in a contemporary context — will have difficulty integrating because they don’t believe in the same kind of tolerance everyone else does.
you can’t have intolerant people — white or of colour — living amongst tolerant people.”
Soooo…. what are you arguing now? Because before you were arguing for homogeneity…… but this sounds like an argument for tolerance… Yea, people who are intolerant can’t live in a tolerant culture and will probably do one of two things: become criminals who fight against the tolerance or, uhm, not live in tolerant places. As for the former, I hardly think that is an argument for homogeneity……….
zombie,
i already redacted it. unfortunately it had to be attributed to someone else.
will have difficulty integrating because they don’t believe in the same kind of tolerance everyone else does.
gosh, it’s not like this ISN’T EXACTLY THE ARGUMENT AGAINST IMMIGRANTS USED approximately, oh 100% of the time.
The Jews! The Irish! The Asians! The Blacks! The Gays!
i already redacted it. unfortunately it had to be attributed to someone else.
s’okay. I am happy – and impressed- you did it.
@ZRM (hopefully I am considered friendly enough to be using ZRM :D):
“No they’re not, and I don’t want to give the impression that I think they are.
I, however, am a librul zombee who may not be as unarmed and defenseless as they think I am.”
Oh yeah, I am all ready certain that you’ve never thought they were joking, I’ve been reading your posts on SadlyNo for far too long to ever think that. You may also count me among those not as unarmed and defenseless as they might like. Matter of fact, there’s a thread going on the forum about that very topic if you’d like to give it a look. 🙂
shora,
yes, cultural homogeneity in a liberal society. that’s still consistent with that i said about tolerance. liberalism is fundamentally tolerant, and to be culturally homogenous is to all be liberal?
Yup, Ion’s not angry about being banned AT ALL xD He’s gone from passive aggressive to just out right aggression xD But it doesn’t bother him! xD
Face the truth, for fuck’s sake. After 9/11, while the conservatives were condemning the terrorist attacks as evil, liberal pukes like you were wondering “What have we done to provoke this?”
Actually I remember it was different (I won’t say opposite). That it was the politically non-aligned (or politically unaware) who were asking why they hate us. The conservatives were saying “they hate us for our values!” and the liberals were saying “they hate us for our foreign policy!”
And in Canada there were ppl screaming “America deserved it for their foreign policy” (which I hate >:| none of the victims “deserved” to be murdered just cuz you disagree w/ their foreign policy) so if you want to criticize radical liberals for nething, it’s for saying that America “deserved” it rather than “why do they hate us?” which I didn’t see from any liberals xD They all pretty much knew “it’s cuz of our foreign policy”. xD
I know Liberals tried to say that the Conservatives were the ones saying “why do they hate us?” .. and I think it makes sense to assume that it’s the other side who must be confused, since you know why… but both sides had their ideas on why, and it was ppl who never followed the news or world politics who were wondering “why do they hate us” xD
“so are you saying then, that they are well-integrated? somehow that doesn’t jive well with talk of racial tensions in france and even the UK.”
Being an ignorant american with absolutely no knowledge of the cultural/political/racial/economic climate in Norway, the only truthful answer I can give you is that I have no fucking clue. Really, not a single one. I WILL say that if they ARE poorly integrated, it’s probably not because those silly Muslims, they just can’t integrate into different cultures.
Sophia said:
We don’t pin terrorism on “Islam” because it’s not the fault of “Islam.”
Nor do we blame Breivik’s terrorism on Christianity, even though he is a Christian. .
Some may be criticizing fundamentalist Christianity for helping to create the environment that made his ideology and actions possible; I have no problem with that, as I have no problem with people making similar claims about fundamentalist Islam, or any kind of fanatical fundamentalist religion.
But that’s not even what we’re doing here. We’re suggesting a connection — at lest in the realm of ideology — between Breivik’s and people who hold numerous virtually identical beliefs. Many of these people are MRMs, alt-righters and others who travel in similar circles. You yourself call his beliefs “lucid.”
Mertvaya Ruka: I am not sure I would interpret the story that way. I can see a racist fantasizing about black men fucking white women because to him, the man’s race constitutes an added element of degradation for the woman. Racism and misogyny tend to go together like bread and butter. So occasionally, there is a strange symbiosis between two views that are at odds with each other: the anxiety over black men taking all the white women for themselves on the one hand, and the pleasure of seeing a woman being “degraded” through sex with someone they consider less than human on the other.
anyway, i have to go, but to wrap up the discussion on my views… i live in toronto. which is one of the world’s most multicultural cities. i think it’s 50%+ visible minorities (including myself), and the crime rates and everything else is relatively low. it’s also one of the more stable financial centers in n. america. here is why i think it works:
cdn immigration system functions on points, so you’re more likely to be granted citizenship if you’re an educated, professional type. LIKELY, then, our immigrants are probably not going to be impoverished and have issues with cultural assimilation, be further alienated, etc. etc.
some people are critical of this system which they perceive to be unfair, and also leeches the talent from countries who could probably do with the social/creative capital. but i don’t think immigration/multiculturalism functions in most other contexts, ESPECIALLY when you have a large number of minorities like in toronto and the economy is not so great. i think alienation, tension and isolation is just an inevitable consequence of being an impoverished immigrant working a shitty job in a foreign country.
yes, cultural homogeneity in a liberal society.
I find homogeneity of any kind to be boring and do not want it.
Sorry about the hot post, David.
Sofia;
So by culturally homogeneous you mean homogeneously liberal. Whatever that means. America is not homogeneously liberal, and you really can’t blame that fact on immigrants. Plenty of conservative, intolerant, red-blooded Americans to go around.
At any rate, everyone doesn’t have to be liberal in this Utopian awesome-world we are suddenly talking about. They just have to be accepting of other people’s lifestyles and choices.
STILL not seeing how ANY of this has to do with Breivik being held to an unfair standard because he’s white (instead of a totally fair mass-murderer standard) and also cuckolding.
david, a quick response, but it’ll have to suffice —
“We’re suggesting a connection — at lest in the realm of ideology — between Breivik’s and people who hold numerous virtually identical beliefs.”
…so then why can’t that be transferable to islam? breivik seemed more motivated by nationalism over christianity, in the way that muslim terrorists are motivated by religion over any kind of specific political ideology.
shora,
“They just have to be accepting of other people’s lifestyles and choices.”
that’s what liberalism is. i’m not talking about capital L liberals or leftism.
Sophia: “in regards to your second comment, i was directly responding to a question by someone else. i forget where it is, which was relevant in that context.”
No, it’s true that I swiped a comment of yours that was not directed at me. Guilty! However, you’ve said it a couple times, and I think I believe that you mean it: You feel it’s unfair that we’d hold Breivik to a different standard than a Muslim who believes that all women should wear the hijab. And I have to point out that, no matter how much I hate misogyny in all its forms, Breivik has murdered 93 people, which kind of puts him on a different level, as far as standards and my fucking hatred go.
I live in Chicago, another city in which whites are a minority, and immigrants (of all colors) are plentiful. Here’s the basic breakdown, a la wikipedia:
Many of the immigrants living here were and in many cases still are poor. Many don’t speak English. Heck, many of the white immigrants don’t speak English.
And while there is still a lot of residential segregation — particularly when it comes to blacks and whites — pretty much anyone wandering around in all but the most segregated parts of the city are going to run across people from a wide range of ethnic/racial/religious backgrounds and traditions.
Chicago has its share of problems, but it’s not some sort of seething cultural cauldron.
The biggest problem caused by all this multiculturalism is that there are too many great ethnic restaurants to try.
Sofia; not interested in debating the definition of liberalism. My last paragraph was really the most important part of that post.
“…so then why can’t that be transferable to islam? breivik seemed more motivated by nationalism over christianity, in the way that muslim terrorists are motivated by religion over any kind of specific political ideology.”
Because Islam is not more inherently violent than Christianity. Most Muslims are just going about their business not blowing anything up or killing anyone, just like most Christians. They’d prefer to not be lumped together with extremist terrorist groups, just like I’m certain most Christians don’t want to be lumped in with the Westborough Baptist Church or Breivik.
David! David! You NEED to go to my friend’s restaurant … I’ll send you an email.
@Sofia
but then what’s the solution to the integration issue? i know that there are huge rates of muslim unemployment in france (not sure about other parts of europe). i’m not asking this to be cheeky, but what you think the solution is?
Good question. Sadly, I don’t have an answer. But I think it’s important to acknowledge that a lot of problems with foreigners* in Europe are rooted in a lack of prospects and not in an unwillingness to assimilate. Add discrimination to the lack of prospects and you get frustrated and potentially dangerous young people. But the bright sight is it hasn’t to be that way. I have many well adjusted friends with different cultural backgrounds. Successful integration is possible if the state provides the framework.
*Foreigners is inaccurate, because many “foreign” people are actually born in the country they live in.
@Amused:
Yeah, it could definitely go either way with that guy. Either a fetish he really enjoyed but hated himself for so he externalized it into hating non-whites or he felt that it was proper degradation for women. No matter how you slice it, he was pretty much a scumbag. And to be perfectly honest, if I’d only had myself to worry about and not my family as well, I’d have happily scanned that rental slip and then posted it on every single white power wanksite I could find so all his buddies could see what he liked getting off to.