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antifeminism antifeminst women idiocy misandry misogyny MRA oppressed men reactionary bullshit terrorism

Do feminists hate mass murderer Anders Breivik … because he’s a white guy?

Another beleaguered white dude.

So here’s the strangest response I’ve seen so far to the massacre in Norway. On Sofiastry, an antifeminist blog that seems to be broadly sympathetic to the “alt” (that is, the “intellectually” racist) right, blogger Sofia complains that feminist bloggers – she cites me and Hugo Schwyzer – are talking about the blatant anti-feminism and misogyny of mass murderer Anders Breivik.  “The mendacious corollary they are trying to construct,” she writes, falling into the purple prose Alt-Righters seem drawn to like flies on bullshit, “is that all those opposed to feminist principles must be in league with all sorts of unsavory radicals.”

As I’ve already noted, this is not actually true;  Sofia is being, well, mendacious. Yes, I pointed out the similarities between Breivik’s noxious misogynistic beliefs and, well, the noxious misogynistic beliefs of an embarrassingly large number of antifeminists and MRAs. But at no point did I (or, for that matter, Hugo) suggest that these people supported his despicable actions.

After purporting to be shocked – shocked! – that anyone would connect Breivik with the antifeminists of the world, Sofia offers an appreciation of sorts for Breivik’s awful manifesto. Waxing pompous yet again, she writes:

[A]lthough his actions were cruel beyond belief, and committed by a delusional, psychopath driven by his delusions of political grandeur, there is lucidity and sense in much of what he writes. He never seemed to explicitly advocated for a genocide of Muslims within Europe, but superficially claimed that he just wanted to sustain European culture.

So, let’s weigh Breivik’s  pros and cons here. CON: He murdered 76 people in cold blood, motivated by a hateful ideology. PRO: He didn’t explicitly call for actual genocide?

Here’s where it gets weird. Really weird.

I feel that Breivik is being tried for more than his cruelty within the feminist community. The fact that he belongs to the privileged group of the white male makes him hate-worthy along with every other privileged white male who might sympathize with his ideology, even if they don’t happen to be psychotic. Breivik exemplifies White Men, even though Osama Bin Laden to the very same liberal ideologues did not represent Every Muslim.

It’s another symptom of our culture that feels it is OK to hold white men to higher standards of political correctness, self-flagellation and martyrdom whilst simultaneously relentlessly berating and mocking them on a cultural level.

Yep, that’s right. We hate Breivik … because he’s a white dude.

She continues on in this vein:

The subtle manifestations of an anti-white male agenda could be expounded upon for some time, even in the sexual sphere. In porn, the genre of cuckolding usually involves black men fucking white women to the dismay of her white husband. Something tells me this wouldn’t be acceptable if a black man were to stand helplessly by while a white male was sexually coercive with a black female.

Somehow we started off talking about mass murder and ended up talking about … cuckolding porn?

What. The. Fuck?

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Pecunium
9 years ago

I see the real Ion is starting to emerge from the cocoon.

It looks about as I expected.

zombie rotten mcdonald

Well, just because this seem to be appropriate to the discussion:

Just because you’re a black boy
Just because you’re a white
It doesn’t mean you’ve got to hate him
It doesn’t mean you’ve got to fight

It doesn’t make it alright
It doesn’t make it alright
It’s the worst excuse in the world
And it, it doesn’t make it alright

Sometimes, songs make it all too clear.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Ion must have missed Jerry Falwell’s blaming everyone from the ACLU to lesbians for 9/11 and the agreement of Pat Robertson-both of whom are or were staunch conservatives.

And frankly, wanting to know why someone does something so we can stop it in the future is not a bad thing. In fact it is a military strategy that is a couple of thousands of years old:

“Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War Chapter III, second to last verse.

zombie rotten mcdonald

Because the US is not really multicultural,

Hey! i already said that!

Owning an Italian restaurant doesn’t make you an Italian and eating pizza doesn’t make you an expert in Italian culture.

Oooh, nice construction of strawmen. I appreciate that; however, the foundations are faulty.

Nobody say that is what multiculturalism is, nor acceptance of diversity.

But here in the city I live in, there are significant cultures of Hispanic, Hmong, Muslim, African, Germanic, Polish, Irish, Jewish, Arab, and Itialian, and I am almost certain I missed some. Oh yeah, Russian. And, of course, Germans. we still don’t know how to classify German Jews or Russian Jews. As said, pigeonholing is difficult for me.

You know how we deal with it? By having festivals celebrating each and every one of those heritages, and welcoming everybody.

It’s kind if weird, in America, where White European is supposed to be the default, but it works. And… it makes the city work. It makes it possible to work and live together. And… it is kind of awesome.

So, fuck you racists. That’s kind of what I want to say.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

Ion’s argument is the same level of idiocy as if someone were to claim that criminal profilers support serial killers. Only a complete slack-jawed moron like him would say trying to understand why people engage in terrorism is the same as supporting or excusing terrorism. This is what happens when someone becomes convinced that being intelligent is not masculine and therefore weak and bad.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

And frankly, wanting to know why someone does something so we can stop it in the future is not a bad thing.

You’re right, it’s not a bad thing… unless, maybe, one (no single person or group in particular) doesn’t necessarily want it to be stopped in the future.

zombie rotten mcdonald

Oh yeah, and in these festivals? We all drink beer and eat food and listen to music and dance, and fuck me if it is not true that EVERY FUCKING CULTURE ON THIS BELEAGUERED PLANET does not do that.

And then we all go home and fuck like bunnies. except for the Babtists.

every last one of these seven billion persons have far more in common than we do separating us.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

Here’s a comment posted to Sadly, No! by commenter Julia Grey. I’d like to repost it here in its entirety, since it explains so well what Breivik was actually trying to accomplish:

The reason the guy targeted the Labor Party’s youth camp is that Norwegian political entities actually allow for an elected representative of the local youth on their boards and councils and whatnot. Those positions, for which some of the activities at the camp help prepare the kids to run for and act in, are generally springboards to higher political office in their adulthood. The current Prime Minister, for example, went to that youth camp in his teens.

Those kids represented the best and the brightest, the most ambitious and talented of the up-and-coming generation of the left in Norway. The killer hoped to kill off the entire Labor Party “farm team” at once.

zombie rotten mcdonald

Shorter zombie: I like you. Let’s party.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

@ZRM:

“So, fuck you racists. That’s kind of what I want to say.”

This message has been brought to you and approved by the Zombie Rotten McDonald for President Right Fucking Now Foundation.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

@Johnny Pez: I’m pretty sure Breivik admitted as much at this point, or at least came clean that he wanted to make an example out of those kids so the government would change policy immediately.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Wow, these kids get actual representation in their local government bodies? Now that makes it even worse because it is hard enough getting young people involved without having to add into it “you might get shot for being politically active.”

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

“Wow, these kids get actual representation in their local government bodies? Now that makes it even worse because it is hard enough getting young people involved without having to add into it “you might get shot for being politically active.””

See also “Liberal Hunting Permit”. Feature, not a bug. Open warfare, civil war on cultural/political lines, is not the idea. The idea is to terrorize specific groups in society to the point where they’re afraid to do anything that might draw attention or aggression.

zombie rotten mcdonald

Wow, these kids get actual representation in their local government bodies? Now that makes it even worse because it is hard enough getting young people involved without having to add into it “you might get shot for being politically active.”

Well, with the exception of the racist sexist eliminationist gun nut, Norwegians are awesome.

Socialist, single payer health care, expansive safety net, … dammit do they need a zombie architect?

zombie rotten mcdonald

the Zombie Rotten McDonald for President Right Fucking Now Foundation.

well, see that is not gonna get anywhere right out of the gate, because I smoked Pot….and I enjoyed.

And I will do it again. I am unrepentant and undamaged.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

Party platform:

BRANES!

Which is still better than anything the Republicans will come up with.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

No one cares about that at this time ZRM. In fact here is what you could use as your platform and you probably would win:

Fuck the rich-they destroyed the economy.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

And the movement to draft ZRM for the presidential election picks up steam… 🙂

Lyn
Lyn
9 years ago

Being a shorter zombie would, unfortunately, make getting to the brains more difficult. Longer/taller zombie = pretty great 🙂

Kave
Kave
9 years ago

I wonder if it’s a 90% chance of a false rape claim only when white men rape. Would mra’s believe women if their attackers were Moslem?

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

@Kave:

“I wonder if it’s a 90% chance of a false rape claim only when white men rape. Would mra’s believe women if their attackers were Moslem?”

Yes, but they’d also believe the women deserved it.

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

Noham Chomsky was against the US intervention in Vietnam in in the 1960s (I think he was right) but when in 1979 Vietnam invaded Cambodia and stopped the genocide done by Pol Pot against his own people, he decided to support Cambodia and the Red Khmer. At the same time he supported a French Holocaust denier, Robert Faurisson. And as I said he was a supporter of Milsosevic. And now he support Qaddafi.

Maybe, for better or worse, Chomsky is consistent on his views that sovereign nations are, you know, sovereign.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

The actual powermongers in our society, the type that the left fancies to have discretion over employment, education, military force etc. may well be disprorportionately white (and jewish), but the similarities with the average white man largely end there.

I see what you did there. And I don’t like it.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

VoiP, hardly surprising though really. Bigots typically don’t pick just one group and hate them to the exclusion of all others. They always need more and more people to feel superior over. So you’re always going to find a cross-section of many different groups bigots hate, as well as the imagined conspiracy all those hated groups are supposedly engaging in together against the bigots.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Shora:

what DOESN’T work is when you have a fundamentally anti-liberal ideology existing in a liberal society. most terrorists, whether we are talking about whites or muslims, are OPPOSED to liberalism, so people with anti-liberal ideologies will NEVER integrate into society because society IS liberal. certain demographics. belief systems, etc. — at least in a contemporary context — will have difficulty integrating because they don’t believe in the same kind of tolerance everyone else does.

I see you talking about BELIEF SYSTEMS, and I get where you’re coming from. When you try to equate those belief systems with ETHNIC GROUPS, or RELIGIONS, that do not necessarily share those BELIEFS, you fail to persuade. You realize that they are different, yes? Meanwhile, it was a shabby thing you did when you tried to slip that equation past us, as here: “demographics, belief systems, etc”–as if we wouldn’t notice what you are doing!

no more mr. nice guy

One problem that Europeans have with Muslims is that there are people that want to give them Sharia Law and it’s impossible for Muslims to assimilate if they live under Sharia Law.

This is anecdata for sure, but my roommate is from India, and she said that Muslims live under Sharia law while Hindus live under their own law, and India hasn’t ceased to exist–in fact, most of the terrorism in India is from radical Hindu nationalists/racists, not Muslims.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

EXCUSE ME:
First quote addressed to Sofia.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Kave and MertvayaRuka:

“I wonder if it’s a 90% chance of a false rape claim only when white men rape. Would mra’s believe women if their attackers were Moslem?”

Yes, but they’d also believe the women deserved it.

This pair of unwholesome ideas is exactly the pattern of the MRA discussion of Lara logan’s rape.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

VoiP, that’s exactly where I got it from. You have no idea how much work it would be to create an imaginary idea and attribute it to them that would be worse than the actual ideas they all ready have.

Shora
9 years ago

EXCUSE ME:
First quote addressed to Sofia.

-side-eye- That’s what I thought you said.

I was a little worried when I first read that quote with my name attached xDDD

no more mr nice guy
9 years ago

This is anecdata for sure, but my roommate is from India, and she said that Muslims live under Sharia law while Hindus live under their own law, and India hasn’t ceased to exist–in fact, most of the terrorism in India is from radical Hindu nationalists/racists, not Muslims.

India is the country of Gandhi and most of us we cannot be like him 🙂

But seriously, there have been terrorists attack in India by radical Muslims from Pakistan :

In 2001, they tried to blow up the parliament and in 2008, there was The Mumbai terrorist attacks

And in the West we have the example of the civil war in Northern Ireland and in the former Yugoslavia. Encouraging religion and religious segregation is not a good thing.

Pecunium
9 years ago

But seriously… we know there have been Muslims who committed terrorism in India…it’s right there in the quotation you used… most. Most requires that some (but the lesser portion) be carried out by other people.

Since Jainists can’t be terrorists (not and still be Jain), that pretty much leaves Christians and Muslims.

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@vacuumslayer
“But seriously, it’s good to know there are people out there looking out for the interests of white men.”

It’s OK to ridicule white men because white men never suffer poverty, crime, disease, injustice, ect.

@cynickal
“No, I’m pointing out that white males hold a disproportional power balance and privilege but you’re too much of a dumbshit to recognize that.
You’re not reasonable nor intellectual, you’re a bigot and we recognize it.”

Calling someone a bigot all the while displaying pride in your own sexist, racist bigotry.

@zombie rotten mcdonald
“Real life is not so simple, and not so bi-directional. Real life is messier, and it is MY belief that a culture that is able to absorb new influences and new citizens, and be flexible in adapting, will be much better suited to modern life, where people are much more mobile. America professed this belief, but has mostly fallen short.”

This statement is exactly what not to do. A unified country should never try to adapt to an influx of immigrants. The immigrants need to adapt to the unified country. This country used to be the great melting pot everyone learned the language and integrated. The diversity model is the country must adapt. The most recent example of the diversity model failure is Yugoslavia. No country in the history of the world has ever or will ever survive the diversity model.

@Shora
“At any rate, everyone doesn’t have to be liberal in this Utopian awesome-world we are suddenly talking about. They just have to be accepting of other people’s lifestyles and choices.”

No one has to be accepting of anyones lifestyle, everyone of you is proof of that. You don’t accept the views of MRAs and speak out against them. I speak out against homosexuals and feminists. There is no difference. This man killed, surely we can find a feminist or two who have killed as well as a gay whose killed. That means nothing as the vast majority haven’t. What you want is the right to speak out against MRAs while demanding, “your” lifestyles be above contradiction.

@Pecunium
Since Jainists can’t be terrorists (not and still be Jain), that pretty much leaves Christians and Muslims.
Athiests and Jews as well, or are they exempt?

@MertvayaRuka & Kave
“I wonder if it’s a 90% chance of a false rape claim only when white men rape. Would mra’s believe women if their attackers were Moslem?”
“Yes, but they’d also believe the women deserved it.”

Nice broad brush you’ve used Kave in painting “all” MRAs, don’t be surprised that feminists are painted with the same monolithic brush. Yikes MertvayaRuka, 25% of your posts consists of the words hate and bigot as you display an open hatred and bigotry for all straght white men.

The rest of the comments consist of mindless chatter, mockery and hate-filled misandry.

Joanna
9 years ago

Why can’t everyone just get along? =(

zombie rotten mcdonald

I am humbled by the acclamation

If NOMNOMNOMinated, I will not serve.

If called upon to shamble, I cannot lurch.

But if my knowledge is deemed to be of use, I am happy to be of service. If my skills in design, or of construction, are happily of use to my beloved country, my meager skills are at your avail.

However, if I have to work alongside racists, bigots, and rich fucks, then they all need to go die in a fire.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

Well, I was wondering who to write in on my vote for next election. Now I know.

Also, you haz message on forum.

HINDU
HINDU
9 years ago

”This is anecdata for sure, but my roommate is from India, and she said that Muslims live under Sharia law while Hindus live under their own law, and India hasn’t ceased to exist–in fact, most of the terrorism in India is from radical Hindu nationalists/racists, not Muslims.”

WRONG. Muslims are allowed to marry up to 4 wives in India (a small minority have more than 1 wife), but otherwise must follow the laws of the land that all citizens do, regardless of religion. Only in the area of marriage are different religions allowed to follow their religious laws, and many Indian Muslim women protest this fact because they DO NOT LIKE polygyny.

Secondly, this whole “Hindu terrorist” thing is a JOKE. Pakistan’s ISI funds, supports and otherwise carries out countless bomb blast after bomb blast in India. In fact, there was another one in Mumbai just last week!

The leftist liberal media in India is anti-hindu, just as the leftist media in any country tends to be anti-majority and pro-minority. Therefore they spread this meme of “Hindu terrorism”. Its bullshit.

OM

HINDU
HINDU
9 years ago

“I wonder if it’s a 90% chance of a false rape claim only when white men rape. Would mra’s believe women if their attackers were Moslem?”

Islam is not a race, its a religion, and there are many white men who are muslims. HOWEVER the white manosphere largely claims that Black men rape white women alot and none of that qualifies as “false rape allegations”.

HINDU
HINDU
9 years ago

NMMNG, “But seriously… we know there have been Muslims who committed terrorism in India…it’s right there in the quotation you used… most. Most requires that some (but the lesser portion) be carried out by other people.”

Pecunium, “Since Jainists can’t be terrorists (not and still be Jain), that pretty much leaves Christians and Muslims.”

Terrorist activity in India has always been dominated by Pakistan ISI backed Muslims in the Western side of the country and Maoist Naxalites in the Eastern side (aided by Foreign Christian Missionaries by the way). There was a period of time when the Khalistani Separatist Movement brought forth some Sikh terrorists but that problem has been settled.

OM

Sharculese
9 years ago

@ pecunium- to be fair, thomas’s stats were for just 2008, so bringing up things like the raf and the red brigades really isn’t a good counter. and even though he only mentioned the basques in his first post, and i mean honestly, when we’re talking about terrorism, that sort of left-wing extremism was so long ago, and there’s not really an analogue for it today, that i don’t think it’s worth bringing up in the context of ‘what does european terrorism look like today.’ his data do seem to suggest that separatists movements are responsible for most european terrorism (which really doesn’t detract from the conclusion that most is caused by european nationalists. who’s more nationalist than separatists?).

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Jesus, NWO, your beliefs about American history are so idealized and shallow – it’s like someone gave you an illustrated story book called “The Great Big Book of America” when you were 10 and you memorized it, and decided you didn’t need to learn another fucking thing.

So enlighten us: what do western governments need to do to stem the tide of terrorism that the oppressed White man is about to unleash upon us.

HINDU
HINDU
9 years ago

“his data do seem to suggest that separatists movements are responsible for most european terrorism (which really doesn’t detract from the conclusion that most is caused by european nationalists. who’s more nationalist than separatists?).”

Yes, Sharculese. In India most of our terrorism has to do with separatism, as I noted above. Unfortunately Pakistan, which is the original “separatist movement” from India, funds most if not all of the terrorist attacks within India. Kashmir, one of our most naturally beautiful states, has been ethnically cleansed of its Kashmiri Pundit population and is almost completely Muslim now. All that was backed by Pakistan. Pakistan also funded and trained the Khalistani Separatist Movement even though Sikhs and sub-continental Muslims are historically enemies. And now Pakistan’s ISI is also funding Maoist Naxalite terrorism in our far Northeastern states – another separatist endeavor.

It doesn’t help that Christian missionaries from the US come into the tribal regions of the Northeast and excaberate the problem, adding fuel to the fire of the communist/naxalite rebellion.

I think the Indian government has finally wised up and faded out the “missionary visa”.

NWOslave
NWOslave
9 years ago

@Nobinayamu
“So enlighten us: what do western governments need to do to stem the tide of terrorism that the oppressed White man is about to unleash upon us.”

First off I’m on moderation so I can’t answer immediately, this post will go into moderation. The reason I’m in moderation is because I basically said, “So enlighten me.” All though not in nearly as a mocking tone as you’ve just used. I said something along the lines of, “what would you suggest?” The reason for my moderation was my apparent promotion of terrorism. Perhaps I should throw a little more loathing, mockery into my inqueries so I won’t be placed on moderation.

HINDU
HINDU
9 years ago

I agree with NWO on this point, ”A unified country should never try to adapt to an influx of immigrants. The immigrants need to adapt to the unified country. This country used to be the great melting pot everyone learned the language and integrated.”

This doesn’t mean that everyone has to look the same or worship the same, it means that there are some basic cultural and civic standards that everyone should ideally follow for the smooth functioning of society.

1. The most fundamental is language. Learn the language. Of course you can keep your native tongue and speak it at home and pass it on to your children as a second language too.

2. Follow the laws of the land and do not petition for separate religious laws.

These are both basic, reasonable and harmless, but there are Muslims in Europe who do not want to follow either of the above. You do not have a “muslim problem” in the US because your Muslims assimilate and integrate. There is a new batch of Muslims springing up in Europe, many of whom were born there, who are turning fundamentalist and radical in their belief sytem.

What does it tell you when a British born Muslim girl of South Asian ethnicity CHOOSES to dress like this

http://miscellany101.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/niqab2.jpg

against the wishes of her moderate and assimilated Indo-British-Muslim parents?

It tells you that there is a fundamentalist “arabization” of Muslims going on amongst Muslims who are not even Arab!

This is not multi-culturalism. This is mono-culturalism: the culture of Saudi Arabia being exported all over the world.

And it does NOT bode well for women, feminism, liberalism or multi-culturalism.

zombie rotten mcdonald

Of course, this kind of idiocy does not get pardon:

A unified country should never try to adapt to an influx of immigrants.

Oh, well fuck you very much, nobody in Zombie Unitaria have EVER called for unification of an influx of immigrants; At best we call for compassion and reasonable integrations.

So yeah, we still call for you to upgrade your own attitude, leveling up oward “HUmane.

Keep tryin, my friend.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Everyone doesn’t have to look alike, but a young woman choosing to dress differently than her family is evidence of “arabization”.

Got it.

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

Criticising what teenage girls wear – isn’t that universal?

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

against the wishes of her moderate and assimilated Indo-British-Muslim parents?

It tells you that there is a fundamentalist “arabization” of Muslims going on amongst Muslims who are not even Arab!

This is not multi-culturalism. This is mono-culturalism: the culture of Saudi Arabia being exported all over the world.

And it does NOT bode well for women, feminism, liberalism or multi-culturalism.

Genetically? o_O

as a 2nd generation Chinese-Canadian, who grew up w/ a LOT of other 2nd generation CCs, I can def say that the “quest for identity” is a rly important thing to a lot of youth of colour… it’s hard, b/c you’re raised that this is your culture, and you’re “normal” but then when you get into school and out int he world you realize v quickly society does not SEE you as normal, no matter how well you speak English : My mom always assumed that me and my sister never experienced racism b/c she raised as to speak English and to assimilate, except we did… and you feel like you don’t “belong” in either world… too westernized for your “ethnic” community, a skin colour you can never change for your society : and a lot of ppl look for identity : some ppl embrace Chinese pop music, or culture… dye their hair.. others try to learn the language more.. adopt customs… etc.. it’s hard to feel like you don’t belong newhere esp when it’s smoething you can’t control and it’s like ANY teenage search for identity… sometimes it’s rebellion… doing things to make your parents upset… and if your parents are trying to assimilate, or want you to, then wearing an article of clothing that isn’t just anti what THEY want but makes a statement in the society you live in, could also be part of that xD

I mean.. otherwise… what.. genetics? o_O

evilwhitemalempire
evilwhitemalempire
9 years ago

“I’m not exactly sure white men as a group are liable for everything that seems to go wrong, but I suspect it really is borne out of some amalgamation of penis envy, an inferiority complex, and the fact that no one wants to take ownership for what they individually do wrong. It’s much easier to blame it on someone bigger, stronger, and evidently more capable who can handle it.”

Ha! Ha! Futtrelle’s getting beat by a girl!

Lyn
Lyn
9 years ago

*rolls eyes at EW*

To quote Buffy: “Oh my god, are you twelve?”

Pecunium
9 years ago

Sharcluse: The Europol report characterises Left wing, the numbers are non-zero.

Did I go back a bit, yes, but so too do references to “arab” when people mention the PLO, which is still happening when the discussion of Islamic terrorists takes place.

So the idea that Muslims have always been terrorist, and terrorrists have always been Muslims is part of my counterpoint.