So here’s the strangest response I’ve seen so far to the massacre in Norway. On Sofiastry, an antifeminist blog that seems to be broadly sympathetic to the “alt” (that is, the “intellectually” racist) right, blogger Sofia complains that feminist bloggers – she cites me and Hugo Schwyzer – are talking about the blatant anti-feminism and misogyny of mass murderer Anders Breivik. “The mendacious corollary they are trying to construct,” she writes, falling into the purple prose Alt-Righters seem drawn to like flies on bullshit, “is that all those opposed to feminist principles must be in league with all sorts of unsavory radicals.”
As I’ve already noted, this is not actually true; Sofia is being, well, mendacious. Yes, I pointed out the similarities between Breivik’s noxious misogynistic beliefs and, well, the noxious misogynistic beliefs of an embarrassingly large number of antifeminists and MRAs. But at no point did I (or, for that matter, Hugo) suggest that these people supported his despicable actions.
After purporting to be shocked – shocked! – that anyone would connect Breivik with the antifeminists of the world, Sofia offers an appreciation of sorts for Breivik’s awful manifesto. Waxing pompous yet again, she writes:
[A]lthough his actions were cruel beyond belief, and committed by a delusional, psychopath driven by his delusions of political grandeur, there is lucidity and sense in much of what he writes. He never seemed to explicitly advocated for a genocide of Muslims within Europe, but superficially claimed that he just wanted to sustain European culture.
So, let’s weigh Breivik’s pros and cons here. CON: He murdered 76 people in cold blood, motivated by a hateful ideology. PRO: He didn’t explicitly call for actual genocide?
Here’s where it gets weird. Really weird.
I feel that Breivik is being tried for more than his cruelty within the feminist community. The fact that he belongs to the privileged group of the white male makes him hate-worthy along with every other privileged white male who might sympathize with his ideology, even if they don’t happen to be psychotic. Breivik exemplifies White Men, even though Osama Bin Laden to the very same liberal ideologues did not represent Every Muslim.
It’s another symptom of our culture that feels it is OK to hold white men to higher standards of political correctness, self-flagellation and martyrdom whilst simultaneously relentlessly berating and mocking them on a cultural level.
Yep, that’s right. We hate Breivik … because he’s a white dude.
She continues on in this vein:
The subtle manifestations of an anti-white male agenda could be expounded upon for some time, even in the sexual sphere. In porn, the genre of cuckolding usually involves black men fucking white women to the dismay of her white husband. Something tells me this wouldn’t be acceptable if a black man were to stand helplessly by while a white male was sexually coercive with a black female.
Somehow we started off talking about mass murder and ended up talking about … cuckolding porn?
What. The. Fuck?
To expand: A lingua franca is a concession. It’s an admission that the one groups language can’t be imposed on the other group(s).
An invader who really wants to, will eradicate the invaded language (see the British in Ireland and Scotland, or the Romans in much of Europe). There are times when the invader loses the language (the Normans in Britain). Oddly the Anglo-Saxon language supplanted the Brythonic ones (even as Breton moved to France, hence Brittany), despite them being numerically inferior (moreso than then Normans, who lost their language).
Languages also have lifespans. Absent a means to write them down they don’t tend to remain “the same language” more than 400-600 years. Drift causes them to change.
But I digress.
@cynickal:
Oh, Hy see ve hef anodder schmot guy here.
In re. the discussion of whether Persian is “really” part of the various groups and kingdoms called “medieval India,” have any of you ever read Mieville’s “The City and the City”? It’s an interesting story whose setting is an allegory of how people in contested areas think about racial or ethnic identity by denying any commonalities they have with their hated enemies. As someone who has wondered why, COMPLETELY BY COINCIDENCE, Byzantine architecture looks Persian, I enjoyed it.
I was reading back through this thread.
HINDU, I am in the U.S. and the level of anti-Islamic sentiment here, despite our primarily integrated and gainfully employed Muslim population, is pitched so highly that the building of a culture and community center with a prayer room was successfully used as a bludgeon in our last mid-term election. Suddenly, a building permit was a nation-wide, frothing at the mouth, political debate.
You don’t know a thing about why the young woman in that picture is dressed that way but you acknowledge that is her choice. That decision is not being imposed on her; she’s choosing it. Whether it’s teenage rebellion, a quest for acceptance, or the kind of newly discovered religious devotion that can affect certain teenagers right at the point when life begins to get very complicated, very quickly, and the search for simple, black-and-white answers becomes very appealing. All you have is a photograph and your prejudice.
Many Muslim women raised in moderate families ,or who become moderate upon reaching the age of majority, speak about the choosing to veil, later choosing to unveil, to wear the burqa, to not wear the burqa. I don’t presume to understand all of the reasons behind these decisions because I lack the cultural frame of reference. But I know enough to know that I don’t know, and that if I want a better understanding I should be listening to these women’s voices instead of viewing them, solely through the lens of my own cultural context.
And, reading back through the thread I just saw this:
“First off I’m on moderation so I can’t answer immediately, this post will go into moderation. The reason I’m in moderation is because I basically said, “So enlighten me.” All though not in nearly as a mocking tone as you’ve just used. I said something along the lines of, “what would you suggest?” The reason for my moderation was my apparent promotion of terrorism. Perhaps I should throw a little more loathing, mockery into my inqueries so I won’t be placed on moderation.”
NOW, I’m sorry – is this self flagellation and pretense of insult supposed to cause me chagrin? Am I supposed to feel recalcitrance and adjust the tone I usually take with you on these threads? Because I do not and I will not. And if you feel mocked all that means is that this site is working precisely as described and you’re getting precisely what you want; the opportunity to feed your persecution complex.
And, of course, to tell women and feminists, to our faces, that you consider us less than human and undeserving of the freedom and liberty of which you claim to be such a fan. So fuck you. And fuck everyone who believes that terrorism is a valid response to even the perception of disenfranchisement. Terrorism is not effective, it is not viable, and it is a disgraceful, cowardly, and ultimately lazy method of trying to create change.
Keep threatening us with your dire predictions. I might be frightened of the inevitability of these kinds of attacks. But not frightened enough to prostrate myself in fear before any group –regardless of ideology- that believes anything less than utter social, political, and financial dominance is oppression.
Nobinayamu, in Europe, Muslims live in ghettos and most women that wear the Islamic veil are forced to do it. And don’t forget the honor killings – women that are killed because they want to live like Western women.
Nobinayamu, ”Many Muslim women raised in moderate families ,or who become moderate upon reaching the age of majority, speak about the choosing to veil, later choosing to unveil, to wear the burqa, to not wear the burqa. I don’t presume to understand all of the reasons behind these decisions because I lack the cultural frame of reference.”
But I DON’T lack the cultural frame of reference. I am from the same “race”, culture and ethnic background of that woman and I know the primary influence behind it.
HINDU, you know what you believe to be the “primary influence” behind her decision. Unless you know the young woman in that picture and you asked her why she chose such a manner of dress, extreme though it may be, you don’t know.
I’m a Black woman in America, raised in a moderately religious family of Protestants. Doesn’t mean that I have complete insight into women with my background who become more outwardly demonstrative of their religion, but grew up in homes and families just like mine.
No More Mr. Nice Guy,
I can believe that there are problematic aspects of Islamic communities in Europe, including human rights violations, subjugation of women and honor killings and, simultaneously, not believe that every veiled woman is being forced.
“I’m a Black woman in America, raised in a moderately religious family of Protestants. Doesn’t mean that I have complete insight into women with my background who become more outwardly demonstrative of their religion, but grew up in homes and families just like mine.”
This proves you don’t know anything about Islam. Niqab is not demonstrative of Islam. It is an extreme Saudi cultural thing.
The girl herself said she decided to wear niqab to “experience what it was like to live as a Muslim woman”.
She was ALREADY a Muslim woman born to devout Muslim parents. Due to the influence of extreme, radical Saudi Wahhabism upon the NON Saudi, NON Wahhabi Muslim community of the UK, this woman falsely thinks that wearing Saudi niqab is “experiencing what it is like to live like a Muslim woman” more than what she was already doing.
Cultural imperialism.
HINDU, what if that’s what it means to her? How do you get to decide what manner is the appropriate way for her to express or experience Islam? If this is her choice, if it rings true for her, why do you get to be the arbiter of whether or not it’s “false”? I’m not going to get into an argument with you about who knows the most about Islam; I’ve no doubt you’ll win. I have some friends who are Muslim, and went to school with children who were Muslim, but I don’t consider myself an expert. I am well aware that Saudi customs and Islam are not synonymous, even when they’re conflated.
I got into this discussion with you because I was interested in your take -even though I didn’t completely agree- on what it means to be a society that is multicultural. Believe me, it’s a question I think about an awful lot. One of the things you said really stuck out for me, and I’m paraphrasing, but that was the idea that everyone doesn’t HAVE to look alike.
And yet you’re so offended that someone would choose a way of dressing that you find offensive and, religious implications aside, that bothers me.
Pec
You know what, you can spout your psychobabble shit all you want. When I see someone methodically walk around shooting people for no other reason than they dont like the way they see the world, I call that FUCKING NUTS, INSANE. You want to call it anti social, well duh that sounds pretty fucking obvious. Really……….really??????
Nobinayamu, you simply do not have the cultural, historical or ethnic reference with which to properly analyse this. I do. Therefore am going to let this part of our exchange rest and move onto this part;
“I got into this discussion with you because I was interested in your take, on what it means to be a society that is multicultural.”
For me it means retaining my ethnic, cultural and religious identity as a Hindu while simutaneously respecting and even defering to the basic values of my host culture, or any culture that I may visit however temporary or however long.
Within my private space there are certain clothes and body marks I wear for puja but depending on the local sensibilites of where I may be at any given time, I may or may not wear the same clothing and body marks in public. That does not mean I wear clothing that would go against my own internal values, even if those clothes are acceptable in that particular culture, but I wear clothes that will allow me to blend in with the environment.
As a world traveller I make it a point to learn some of the local langauage wherever I go. If I am staying for a long period of time, damn straight I am going to make a serious effort to learn more and more of the language. If I chose to live there, I will learn the language completely, which I have done.
I will not expect any host culture to automatically “respect” my ethnic culture or religion. If need be I will keep it on the downlow WHICH I had to do in a few Muslim countries by the way.
Basically its up to travellers and immigrants to assess the local situation and adapt accordingly.
Francis Fukuyama wrote a good text about national identities and multiculturalism and the difference between Europe and the US :
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2007/02/identityandmigration/
@Nobinayamu
“NOW, I’m sorry – is this self flagellation and pretense of insult supposed to cause me chagrin? Am I supposed to feel recalcitrance and adjust the tone I usually take with you on these threads? Because I do not and I will not. And if you feel mocked all that means is that this site is working precisely as described and you’re getting precisely what you want; the opportunity to feed your persecution complex.
And, of course, to tell women and feminists, to our faces, that you consider us less than human and undeserving of the freedom and liberty of which you claim to be such a fan. So fuck you. And fuck everyone who believes that terrorism is a valid response to even the perception of disenfranchisement. Terrorism is not effective, it is not viable, and it is a disgraceful, cowardly, and ultimately lazy method of trying to create change.”
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This stuff is a work of art. While furiously self flagellating to the point of beating yourself into a bloody mess you accuse me of such. Too damn funny, I mean talk about beating the victim drum. Any disagreement and that person considers you non-human. Can you imagine someone disagreeing with someone else and that person responding by saying, “so you think I’m less than human.” Everyone would probably think we have a candidate for the funny farm.
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The rest of you seem to be wikipedia geniuses. Suddenly, the manboobz gang knows all about Islam, muslims and every stitch of muslim history. I’m amazed at how much brilliance resides on this site.
Yes, HINDU, because we know that Sati was practiced by Muslims. Oh, wait, whoops! The practice of burning a widow on her husband’s funeral pyre is a Hindu practice. Ah, and what about the Hindu fundamental response to the movie Fire? “In 1996, Fire, a film about lesbianism, enraged Hindu fundamentalists who burnt down several cinemas.” Or the three Hindu men who were going to burn copies of the Quran and Bible? My, my. What a beautiful, open and loving religion. Only Hindus can be impartial! It clearly shows! *rolls eyes*
Note: I’m not saying all Hindus are jerkoffs, but some clearly are. Just like SOME Muslims are jerkoffs. If HINDU wants to play the tar every person of a certain religion with one brush game, well it works both ways asshole.
Seriously, HINDU is the equivalent of a Teabagger. Imagine if a Christian came here with the name CHRISTIAN and said that Christianity is the most awesome religion EVAR and if anyone were to be impartial, it would be Christians and CHRISTIANS specifically. *barf*
Liberalism and Multi-Culturalism. Can the 2 co-exist?
http://www.shunya.net/Text/Blog/BeingLiberal.htm
The rest of you seem to be wikipedia geniuses. Suddenly, the manboobz gang knows all about Islam, muslims and every stitch of muslim history. I’m amazed at how much brilliance resides on this site.
Tell me your credentials NWO? :3
Also NWO, if wikipedia is a bad source, perhaps you should give us the sources you believe are trustworthy about Islam? 🙂 And also where ppl are incorrect and what is correct? :]
@Ami:
NWO doesn’t need to know anything! He just needs to know we’re wrong. Then he can self-flagellate to his hearts content about how wrong he is and how perfect we are, because he knows it’s the opposite.
How does he know? He knows because he knows because he knows because he knows…
Zas, clearly you have not read all of my comments. I am for assimilation. I myself have happily and easily adapted and assimilated into Muslim majority countries for periods of time and have made lifelong friendships therein, and enjoyed some whirwind romances as well.
My point is not about Islam as a personal spiritual practice, its about Wahhabist Cultural Hegemony.
I posted a comment here but it was not published because it was an unwanted opinion.
Wow, and WordPress even knew to give BEAR a swastika icon. I am impressed.
Hindu: Who made you the perfect comprehender of culture? What makes you the one who gets to say that someone who decides to act one way is wrong, and being unfairly influenced.
You aren’t Mulim, yet you are saying what a Muslim chooses to do it wrong.
That, to borrow a term from you, smacks of cultural imperialism.
tits: You are calling it “insane” to make it something a “sane” MRA wouldn’t do. It’s defensive distancing. One can be violently, even pathologically violent, and still be sane.
Do you think he didn’t know it was wrong?
He said he expected to be locked up for the rest of his life. He knew the repercussions. He thought the price he’d have to pay was worth the result he was trying to achieve.
It may be delusional, but it’s not insane.