Categories
antifeminism antifeminst women idiocy misandry misogyny MRA oppressed men reactionary bullshit terrorism

Do feminists hate mass murderer Anders Breivik … because he’s a white guy?

Another beleaguered white dude.

So here’s the strangest response I’ve seen so far to the massacre in Norway. On Sofiastry, an antifeminist blog that seems to be broadly sympathetic to the “alt” (that is, the “intellectually” racist) right, blogger Sofia complains that feminist bloggers – she cites me and Hugo Schwyzer – are talking about the blatant anti-feminism and misogyny of mass murderer Anders Breivik.  “The mendacious corollary they are trying to construct,” she writes, falling into the purple prose Alt-Righters seem drawn to like flies on bullshit, “is that all those opposed to feminist principles must be in league with all sorts of unsavory radicals.”

As I’ve already noted, this is not actually true;  Sofia is being, well, mendacious. Yes, I pointed out the similarities between Breivik’s noxious misogynistic beliefs and, well, the noxious misogynistic beliefs of an embarrassingly large number of antifeminists and MRAs. But at no point did I (or, for that matter, Hugo) suggest that these people supported his despicable actions.

After purporting to be shocked – shocked! – that anyone would connect Breivik with the antifeminists of the world, Sofia offers an appreciation of sorts for Breivik’s awful manifesto. Waxing pompous yet again, she writes:

[A]lthough his actions were cruel beyond belief, and committed by a delusional, psychopath driven by his delusions of political grandeur, there is lucidity and sense in much of what he writes. He never seemed to explicitly advocated for a genocide of Muslims within Europe, but superficially claimed that he just wanted to sustain European culture.

So, let’s weigh Breivik’s  pros and cons here. CON: He murdered 76 people in cold blood, motivated by a hateful ideology. PRO: He didn’t explicitly call for actual genocide?

Here’s where it gets weird. Really weird.

I feel that Breivik is being tried for more than his cruelty within the feminist community. The fact that he belongs to the privileged group of the white male makes him hate-worthy along with every other privileged white male who might sympathize with his ideology, even if they don’t happen to be psychotic. Breivik exemplifies White Men, even though Osama Bin Laden to the very same liberal ideologues did not represent Every Muslim.

It’s another symptom of our culture that feels it is OK to hold white men to higher standards of political correctness, self-flagellation and martyrdom whilst simultaneously relentlessly berating and mocking them on a cultural level.

Yep, that’s right. We hate Breivik … because he’s a white dude.

She continues on in this vein:

The subtle manifestations of an anti-white male agenda could be expounded upon for some time, even in the sexual sphere. In porn, the genre of cuckolding usually involves black men fucking white women to the dismay of her white husband. Something tells me this wouldn’t be acceptable if a black man were to stand helplessly by while a white male was sexually coercive with a black female.

Somehow we started off talking about mass murder and ended up talking about … cuckolding porn?

What. The. Fuck?

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

283 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

I could care less what colour a mass murderer is. I loathe them for being a mass murderer.

And it is not the same thing as been a mass killer, there is a difference.

zombie rotten mcdonald

if only he wasn’t white! then he’d be OK!

vacuumslayer
9 years ago

But seriously, it’s good to know there are people out there looking out for the interests of white men.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

No, I hate him because he’s beautiful.

Shora
9 years ago

Jesus fucking christ. What the fuck, I don’t even. This shit is getting fucking ridiculous.

Why is everyone twisting themselves around when it comes to this guy? He spewed hateful, disgusting bullshit and then he killed a lot of people, many of them teenagers. What is with this fucking bending backwards to give him sympathy? He’s lucid? He’s got some good ideas, shame about that whole murdering children in cold blood thing.

I mean seriously, what the fuck? If a Muslim man did this exact same thing, with similar wording and views in that hateful shitpile of a manifesto, do you think for a hot second we’d hear anything but a complete denunciation of this man and everything he stands for?

And lady, if you think this murderous shitbag exemplifies White Men, well. Lets just say you have a far worse opinion on White Men then I ever will….

vacuumslayer
9 years ago

Johnny Pez wins the intertubes…and my heart

zombie rotten mcdonald

In porn, the genre of cuckolding usually involves black men fucking white women to the dismay of her white husband. Something tells me this wouldn’t be acceptable if a black man were to stand helplessly by while a white male was sexually coercive with a black female.

Sounds like she’s been doing a bit of fantasizing wanking research.

zombie rotten mcdonald

curse you WordPress. “fantasizing wanking” were supposed to be strikethroughs.

…hey, wait. I kinda like it the way it came out.

Sharculese
9 years ago

if a black man were to stand helplessly by while a white male was sexually coercive with a black female.

in America, we call this the Jefferson administration

sofia
9 years ago

are you intentionally missing the point there? i’m saying he’s being tried for MORE than being a murderer, as his beliefs, ideologies, and background seem to be invoked more than it would be for a muslim within the liberal/feminist community. you can’t deny that people are exploring the MRA/nationalist aspect MORE than if it were to be a muslim terrorist act since i’ve never heard a news outlet or feminist blog criticize islam.

and yes, you can link cuckoldry porn… it’s called abstracting a general principle/idea and linking it to other manifestations of the same prejudice.

RW
RW
9 years ago

I do think she has a point.

When a Muslim commits an atrocity there’s more of a “mind how you walk, mind how you talk” type of vibe from the Left.

Brevik ticks the race, gender and (probably) class privilege boxes so these same people can give themselves over more fully to making the same associations between Brevik and other ideological strands/demographics (i.e. male anti-feminists) that they usually chastise the right for doing with Muslims in response to Muslim violence.

Shora,

I don’t think offering an opinion that he had some good ideas is offering sympathy. You can have an opinion about somebody’s ideas and a different one about their actions and personality. “Sofia” does call him a delusional psychopath, which seems like a strange way of offering sympathy.

So, she does seem to do the obligatory moral quarantine of his personality. As far as his ideas go, the plain fact is that Brevik is probably not clinically retarded. So a non-retard apparently churns out 1500 pages of opinions that weren’t actual gibbering, people will wind up agreeing here and there. This really shouldn’t be so much of a shock to have people throwing their hands up and wailing over it.

As far as exemplifying white men goes, I think “Sofia” means exemplifying in the eyes of liberals. I don’t know about that, there are liberals who do think that the white male “kyriarchy/patriarchy/power elite” or whatever would just love to gas and shoot all the lefties, minorities etc. etc. and Brevik is their true voice but I really think a lot of libs just recognize the guy was a far right nutter.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

Johnny Pez wins the intertubes…and my heart

The former is commonplace, the latter a treasure beyond price.

ozymandias42
9 years ago

I thought most anti-racists didn’t like cuckolding porn that much because it’s kind of weird and racist. I mean, yes, people should be able to masturbate to whatever they want to, your fantasy isn’t hurting anyone else, but My Daughter Is Fucking Blackzilla #12 is hardly the vanguard of anti-racist thought.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Cuckold porn? CUCKOLD PORN?!

And Glen Beck is comparing the children that died that day to the Hitler Youth?

You know what? It’s the first really nice day after an oppressive heat wave. I think… I’m going to go outside. For a good long while.

Alex
9 years ago

Glen Beck is what? I…I…I…I…*sigh* I don’t even…

johnnykaje
9 years ago

Something tells me this wouldn’t be acceptable if a black man were to stand helplessly by while a white male was sexually coercive with a black female.

If I weren’t on an office computer, I could probably find an example of this in under five minutes. Have we forgotten Rule 34 so quickly?

Nobby
Nobby
9 years ago

@Alex: Read, and be sad:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/glenn_beck_is_still_on_the_air.php

(I thought you read pharyngula?

filetofswedishfish
9 years ago

Like I said in the two thread about this Guy and the people defending/agreeing/yeah butting him: HOW HARD IS IT TOADMIT HE IS HORRIBLE AND ALL THE WAY WRONG!?

How hard can it possibly be???

Sharculese
9 years ago

@RW: i get that she’s trying to say that leftists see breivik as representative of “the white man” or whatever, the problem is that it’s a silly, untrue smear for which she has no proof, (shocker: large number of leftists still white men) designed to distract from the fact that there are actual racists (like, i dunno, anders breivik for instance), who actually do try to make every islamic terrorist a representative of the muslim world.

filetofswedishfish
9 years ago

Uck. Typos via virtual keyboard. Sorry

Magical Laura
9 years ago

“if only he wasn’t white! then he’d be OK!”

[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1uhmnNnmL8&w=560&h=349%5D

“Ian Huntley practising witchraft?!?! Oh you’re joking, I liked him!”

Sharculese
9 years ago

seriously, while the facts from oslo were still scant, a conservative columnist for a major paper took to the opportunity to blame muslims for it and to remind everyone that we have to be ever vigilant against the threat of scary muslims, and i can’t find a single example of any serious call to round up and gas all the white dudes now that we know the killer was one. why should anybody take this equivocation about how both side are the same seriously.

Nahida
9 years ago

When a Muslim commits an atrocity there’s more of a “mind how you walk, mind how you talk” type of vibe from the Left.

Um. Because when you don’t know shit about a religion/culture that is a disadvantaged minority in your country you are more likely to be an inaccurate presumptuous asshole and inspire violence exactly like THIS?

Hide and Seek
Hide and Seek
9 years ago

“[A]lthough his actions were cruel beyond belief, and committed by a delusional, psychopath driven by his delusions of political grandeur, there is lucidity and sense in much of what he writes.”

I know that I am not going to get what I want, but I would *really* like people to stop conflating violence they don’t understand with mental illness. This dude was bad, but he was not crazy. He decided to believe things that were wrong and then he acted on those beliefs in a completely and totally rational way.

Conflating crazy people with criminals makes the lives of mentally ill people more difficult and makes the lives of the victims of crime more difficult because people think “X person I know can’t be a rapist because rapists are crazy and X isn’t crazy”, “X person can’t beat their spouse”, “X person is completely safe to work with even though they constantly talk about being frustrated with their job and life and how they should be able to carry concealed weapons,” etc. forever.

Shora
9 years ago

RW; I never said that Breivik was clinically retarded. I’m confused as to why you brought it up. He’s a horrible human being who did an atrocious thing. I don’t understand why people in the far right are twisting around this issue so much.

Question; do you see anyone wandering about saying that maybe Hitler had some good points who weren’t racist fuckheads? Also, do you really believe yourself that “this man committed a horrible atrocity and murdered children but he naturally has some good points here and there” is an appropriate response to this tragedy? really? Really? Does ANYONE actually believe this?

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

When a Muslim commits an atrocity there’s more of a “mind how you walk, mind how you talk” type of vibe from the Left.

So now we got to “mind how you walk, mind how you talk” around white dudes? White dudes that are destroying the economics of the western world with their credit defaults and their austerity? White dudes who are killing tens of thousands of brown dudes and ladies and children every month? White dudes that have arrested and imprisioned a quarter of the brouwn population in this country?

Yeah, we’ll get right on that, Skippy.

Pecunium
9 years ago

ZRM: If he wasn’t white people might not remind them that not all terrorists are Muslim

And his extrapolation of rhetoric to action makes them look bad. It is also chilling to see the way he moves from a legitimate concern about genuine problems to an unspeakably evil “solution.” which is bad because, When it emerged that these acts of terror were the work of a native Norwegian who thought he was striking a blow against jihadism and its enablers, it was immediately clear to me that his violence will deal a heavy blow to an urgent cause.

That was an op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal.

So yeah, it bothers them, a lot, that this might show they are encouraging the most active terrorists in the country.

I’d want to put some serious spin on that.

Pecunium
9 years ago

RW: The average terrorist in the US is white, male, Christian.

The averege Terrorist in Europe is Native, nationalist (which means, by and large, white and male).

But when they commit terrorism (e.g. Stack) it’s, “a disturbed man,”. Never mind his manifesto. Same when an Adkisson shoots up a church for being, “too liberal”. His manifesto, saying that when life gets to be too much to bear one ought not committ suicide, but rather murder some liberal so they will know to sit down and shut up so the conservatives can run the country… he’s just a loon.

Brievik, we keep being told (by MRA’s and racists, and right wingers) had, “legitimate concerns” but went too far. Brown people however, “hate out way of life”.

When we invaded their countries, and they fought back, we still heard these people bleating about how we’re upset; not because he killed almost a hundred people, but because he’s white.

when you try to make comparisons between saying we need to look at motivations of “Islamic” terrorism, and this, you forget that we have looked at his manifesto; and found it wanting.

RW
RW
9 years ago

Sharculese,

I didn’t agree with Sofia on that count either, but I brought it up because I thought Shora had misunderstood/represented the point (s)he was answering to.

Shora,

I know you didn’t say he was clinically retarded. I mentioned the guy’s brain to illustrate a point that if somebody of at least normal intelligence writes 1500 pages of his opinions then he’ll probably find people agreeing with him here and there.

I think the “he had some good ideas” reponse is fine as long as it comes packaged with an acknowledgement that his actions were crazy. I’m not sure if the “good ideas” stuff in response to the tragedy per se as it is to the aftermath attempts to lump Brevik in with other strands of thought. Eeither way I don’t really mind that much, I guess ymmv. I’d only say that it’s usually the left who chide people for their hysterical reactions to big stomach churners.

I’m not sure what you’re driving at with the Hitler analogy. If it’s that anybody who agrees that Brevik made good points is a secret endorser of child murder, then I’ll have to disagree.

nahida,

The left power dynamic argument never played well me because the same card (i.e. the media/cultural discourse promoting violence)can be played so many different ways.

“when you don’t know shit about a religion/culture that is a
disadvantaged minority in your country you are more likely to be an
inaccurate presumptuous asshole and inspire violence exactly like X”

“when you preach that society systematically oppresses you in
favour of white people you inspire violence exactly like X”

“when you systematically ignore the concerns of one ethic group as
beign invalid you push them into different outlets like X”

Political/media/cultural/whatever discourses that can arguably promote violence against particular groups, whetehr supposedly dominant or minority groups, is something that can be played every which way.

The Left thinks it only plays one way – majority group on minority group, because the majority
has the “power” to do harm, as if we’re perpetually one foot away from Kristallnacht. The reality
is different: almost anybody has the power to inflict grievous violence on anybody else. You need only a weapon (if that) and sufficient motivation.

cynickal,

I honestly think you help make my point. You seem to be saying that white dudes don’t deserve the “mind how you talk” treatment because of the sins of a subgroup within them, which is exactly the same reaction the right have when the left try to reign in their criticism of Muslims.

RW
RW
9 years ago

Pecunium,

Everything you say may be true, but I’m not here to defend the typical right wing view of the world. For example, :””Brievik had, “legitimate concerns” but went too far. Brown people “hate our way of life”.”” are pretty simplistic and not necessarily things I would agree with.

zombie rotten mcdonald

“[A]lthough his actions were cruel beyond belief, and committed by a delusional, psychopath driven by his delusions of political grandeur, there is lucidity and sense in much of what he writes.”

@Hideandseek: yeah, and she even says it right in this sentence.

She starts out by calling him delusional (twice! in one sentence! THAT”S WRITING GOOD!) and then goes on to to say his writing is lucid and sensible.

Can’t be both.

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

I don’t remember anyone holding their tongues and fawning all over Nidal Hassan. Is my memory wrong? I feel like there was a lot of confusion about why he would shoot up an army base all of a sudden, and a lot of people kind of pointing fingers and saying it was affirmative action’s fault he was there in the first place, since he obviously was mentally unstable, etc.

I also don’t see a lot of sympathy for murderers period. And I’m pretty fucking left-wing. I think I would have heard if we were doing that now.

Needless to say, it’s not a race thing. It’s a murderer thing. Sorry.

zombie rotten mcdonald

but rather murder some liberal so they will know to sit down and shut up so the conservatives can run the country…

Also, this.

In the manifestos, but also in the apologeia being issued by bucketload this week, it seems like about half of them end in some version of “but if you liberals and feminists would just SHUT UP, it won’t be necessary to shoot you.”

Hide and Seek
Hide and Seek
9 years ago

@zombie:

Because she agrees with many of his wrong beliefs, but isn’t committed enough to take the next logical step.

I think rightwingers do this all the time, they say something like: Homosexuality is an abomination! or Abortion is murder! but then when someone else takes the next logical step, like passing legislation to execute homosexuals or blowing up an abortion clinic, they’re surprised and can’t understand why people anyone would think that was a good thing to do and assume those people must be crazy or misinformed as to how one treats “abominations.”

filetofswedishfish
9 years ago

ZRD- you could not be more right.

Sharculese
9 years ago

almost anybody has the power to inflict grievous violence on anybody else. You need only a weapon (if that) and sufficient motivation.

of course anyone can inflict grievous violence on anyone else. what only the majority can inflict on the minority is systematic targeting, mob violence without threat of repercussions, denial of educational/economic opportunities, etc. and these are things that happen on a day to day basis and that are much harder to respond to and reverse. which is why they don’t balance out and why your description of “the Left” (leftists: still not a monolithic entity) verges on caricature

zombie rotten mcdonald

ZRD- you could not be more right.

Hey! That’s not nice!…. Oh wait, you mean CORRECT, not RIGHT-WING. Sorry.

zombie rotten mcdonald

I think rightwingers do this all the time, they say something like: Homosexuality is an abomination! or Abortion is murder! but then when someone else takes the next logical step, like passing legislation to execute homosexuals or blowing up an abortion clinic, they’re surprised and can’t understand why people anyone would think that was a good thing to do and assume those people must be crazy or misinformed as to how one treats “abominations.”

As seen on the anti-abortion front, the leaders of the movement have discovered that if they stop at that point, that someone who is a bit less tightly screwed together will make the connection and take the next step for them. No need to get their own hands dirty, and it maintains their own plausible deniability, even if just barely. See the murder of Dr. Tiller (or heck, any of the doctor-killing bastards) or the frantic back-pedaling being done by Pamela Gellar.

RW
RW
9 years ago

Sharculese,

The only point I would concede is the possibility of denying educational/employment opportunities. Even then, I’d say it’s more of a subgroup within a majority group that has that kind of power, and moreover a subgroup that many other members may have little in common with.

As far as minorities being unable to use systematic targeting, mob violence etc. I really wonder about your grip on reality.

I use the “Left” as shorthand. Really I mean the hyper-left you find in the blogosphere.

pervocracy
9 years ago

This may be the least important point on the thread, but cuckold porn isn’t “coercive.” It’s supposed to be about “my wife is so much more pleased by this big black man than she is by me;” there’s no implications that she doesn’t consent.

AB
AB
9 years ago

I’ve never posted posted here before, but I wanted to add that when people talk about not all Muslims being like Osama bin Laden, it’s usually in the context of how most Muslims don’t agree with Osama bin Laden at all.

It’s “Plenty of Muslims believe Christians and Jews should be free to practice their religion in peace, don’t assume they’re all like Osama bin Laden.” or “Plenty of Muslims believe in equal rights for men and women, don’t assume they’re all like Osama bin Laden.” or “Plenty of Muslims believe the sinfulness of consensual sex is a matter between the practitioners and God, don’t assume they’re all like Osama bin Laden.”

It’s NOT: “Muslims all agree with Osama bin Laden, but because they don’t directly kill people for their beliefs, we should just pretend like they have nothing in common with him.”. But the MRAs are literally saying “We totally agree with Anders Breivik, but don’t compare us to him because……… eh MUSLIMS!”.

I mean, it’s a completely different category of comparison. I don’t think it would be very hard to find Muslims willing to denounce everything Osama bin Laden stands for (in fact, we have a whole organisation for them here in Denmark), or to find feminists willing to reject the SCUM Manifesto, but every part of Breivik’s manifesto revolving around feminism and gender roles reads like a freaking MRA manual, and the MRAs are not even denying it.

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

cynickal,

I honestly think you help make my point. You seem to be saying that white dudes don’t deserve the “mind how you talk” treatment because of the sins of a subgroup within them, which is exactly the same reaction the right have when the left try to reign in their criticism of Muslims.

No, I’m pointing out that white males hold a disproportional power balance and privilege but you’re too much of a dumbshit to recognize that.
You’re not reasonable nor intellectual, you’re a bigot and we recognize it.

Now dot ve gotz dat oot ov de vay, ve can goez bak to zee pointz ov de post.

no more mr nice guy
9 years ago

Let’s be realistic, if Anders Breivik was a Muslim, I’m sure Noam Chomsky and his fans would excuse him.

Sofia’s blog is partly part of the Human Biodiversity Movement (HBD), a group of people that believe that Asian people have a superior IQ than White people and White people have a superior IQ than other ethnic groups (Muslims, Latino-Americans, Blacks, … ). They call them NAMs (Non-Asian minorities). Most guys in the HBD movement are White nerds that have an inferiority complex and therefore believe that White people are persecuted. And many of them cannot get laid so they are part of the MRA movement too.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Ok… Let’s be realistic, if Anders Breivik was a Muslim, I’m sure Noam Chomsky and his fans would excuse him.

Define: “Excuse him.”

Show how what you think the Left would do is fundamentally different from what the apologists on the right are doing.

Explain why you aren’t actually criticising them, but rather bashing us.

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

No more mister nice guy: “Let’s be realistic, if Anders Breivik was a Muslim, I’m sure Noam Chomsky and his fans would excuse him.”

So, I said above that I don’t remember anyone coddling Nidal Hassan after the Ft. Hood shootings. Let’s throw John Muhammad in the mix too. I don’t remember anyone sympathizing with him after the Beltway sniper attacks. Can you show where Noam Chomsky or his fans did so, or is this just an unfounded feeling you have?

Alex
9 years ago

@Nobby,

I’ve heard of it, but no; I have yet to read pharyngula.

Thomas
Thomas
9 years ago

The averege Terrorist in Europe is Native, nationalist (which means, by and large, white and male).

This is technically correct but misleading. You could also say the average European terrorist is a Basque nationalist, separatist. The attacks of the separatists are mainly aimed at infrastructure not against people.

Sharculese
9 years ago

You could also say the average European terrorist is a Basque nationalist, separatist.

The Basques? Really? A few small terrorist groups operating in a single region of a single country represent ‘the average European terrorist’? No, you couldn’t say that.

Thomas
Thomas
9 years ago

Europol terrorism report 2008, page 16:

“Eighty-eight percent of all reported terrorist attacks are separatist terrorist attacks targeting France and Spain. The attacks were claimed by, or attributed to, Basque and Corsican separatist terrorism.”

https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/tesat2008_0.pdf

Sharculese
9 years ago

Huh, that’s interesting and I learned something new today, so thanks. Guess I was wrong.

1 2 3 6