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Manosphere blogs: Hey, that Breivik guy has some good ideas!

The "thoughtful" Breivik in custody

Earlier today I wrote about some Men’s Rights Redditors who endorsed the views of Norwegian shooter Anders Breivik – without knowing that the views they were endorsing were his. But others in the manosphere have stepped up to defend Breivik’s manifesto (if not his actions) plainly and explicitly, in full knowledge of just whose ideas they are endorsing.

On In Mala Fide, blogger Ferdinand Bardamu praises Breivik’s “lucidity,” and blames his murderous actions on the evils of a too-liberal  society:

[A]nother madman with a sensible manifesto. Another completely rational, intelligent man driven to murderous insanity. And once again, society has zero introspection in regards to its profound ability to turn thoughtful men into lunatic butchers.  …

He’s not being sarcastic here. He continues:

That makes HOW many rage killers in the past five years alone? And not just transparent headcases like Jared Loughner or George Sodini, but ordinary men like Pekka-Eric Auvinen or Joe Stack who simply weren’t going to take it anymore. No one bothers to ask WHY all these men suddenly decide to pick up a gun and start shooting people – they’re all written off as crazies. Or the rage killings are blamed on overly permissive gun laws …

Here’s an idea – sick societies produce sick individuals who do sick things. Anders Breivin [sic] murdered nearly a hundred teens (not children, TEENS – they were at a summer camp for young adults) and must pay the price, but the blood of those teens is ultimately on the hands of the society that spat him forth. He is the bastard son of a masochistic, degenerate, rootless world that pisses on its traditions and heritage to elevate perversity, mindless consumerism and ethnic self-hatred to the highest of virtues.

(Bolded text in original.) That final reference to “ethnic self-hatred” seems to be Bardamu’s euphemistic way of complaining that not enough white people are white supremacists.

Then he adds this repulsive final thought on Breivik’s victims:

[S]top acting so fucking shocked that Breivin murdered “children.” As William Rome pointed out, it’s been de rigeur for all of human history for political revolutionaries to kill the heirs of their enemies alongside the enemies themselves, to ensure that the old system would stay dead and buried. … That doesn’t make what he did excusable, but it does make it understandable.

Meanwhile, Chuck of Gucci Little Piggy offers what appears to be a somewhat more restrained, if ultimately more puzzling, defense of Breivik’s manifesto – or at least that portion of the manifesto that Breivik borrowed from the writings of far-right blogger Fjordman.

Chuck complains that Hugo Schwyzer and I are “try[ing] to blame Breivik on MRAs” in our recent posts showing the similarities between Breivik’s ideas and those of many MRAs. Never mind that neither Hugo nor I referred to Breivik as an MRA. I described him as an antifeminist, which is an undeniable fact,  whose views are “strikingly similar to many MRAs.” (Emphasis added.) Hugo stated explicitly that he didn’t blame the MRM directly for Breivik’s actions, noting that “[m]ost MRAs – perhaps almost all – reject violence and mass murder as a political tactic.”

Evidently Chuck feels that to even mention the MRM in conjunction with Breivik is some sort of egregious smear, especially since the shooter spent “only” 23 pages of his manifesto writing explicitly about feminism.

Weirdly, after trying to draw a sharp line between Breivik and the MRM, Chuck goes on to apparently endorse Breivik’s (and Fjordman’s) notions about the ways in which feminism “greased the wheels to allow Islam into his country.”  The rest of Chuck’s post elaborates on, and seems to fully endorse, Breivik’s/Fjordman’s argument that feminism’s “emasculation of Western men has taken the organic policing mechanism out of the hands of men in society” and thus rendered Western society helpless before the Islamic cultural invaders.

I’ve asked Chuck to clarify if this is indeed what he means to convey in his post. If so, I can only say:  If you’re trying to draw a distinction between your ideas and the ideas of a murderous terrorist, you don’t really advance your case by agreeing with the central thrust of these ideas pretty much wholeheartedly.

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dan
dan
10 years ago

G.L Piggy

Your anxiety about the impending islamification of us poor old Europeans reminds me of an old Giles cartoon from the 1970’s, published in the wake of the mass arrival of Uganda’s expelled Asian population; it depicted the future House of Commons “swamped” by Indian MP’s ( in the 1970’s no one particularly cared about the distinctions between Hindu, Sikh and Muslim ) – this would be the inevitable result of their high birthrates. 35 years later – well, it just neatly illustrates how these anxieties about immigration are a perpetual canard, which in the UK appear at regular intervals ( Huegenot, Irish, Jewish, East European, Afro-Caribbean, South Asian, “Islamic” and Polish/East European waves of immigration over hundreds of years have all excited the same responses ).

Even if we include Bosnia and Albania, the muslim population of Europe is, at most, about 5-7% – and this figure doesn’t disclose the reality that a pretty spectacular percentage of this population is “nominally” so, in the same way that most Europeans are nominally Christian, but in fact are secular/agnostic/atheist/godless that go to church solely for birth, death and marriage rituals.

Perhaps you need to get your head around the idea that Muslims are oftern secular liberals too – just like their supposedly Christian counterparts.

Andrea Vaughn
10 years ago

And yet again, the thread gets jacked by people who don’t want to examine the fact that MRAs sympathize and agree with a mass murderer, just as they did with others such as George Sodini and Bruce Pardo. “Oooooh, the Muslims are still WAY worse, see??”

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

@ Andrea

I don’t think it counts as a threadjack, since the jacker was cited at length in the OP, and the jacker’s point is to explain in greater detail how much he agrees with the mass murderer.

Marc
Marc
10 years ago

Pecunium again tries to argue about rape and pulls out the statistics.

Too bad that he believes that 90% of rapes don’t end in a conviction, which of course makes his argument unusable, the error margin is just too high.

Rape underreporting might just have increased 5% and the conviction rate might just drop 5% and … look… we have a huge drop in rapes.

selling Chinese stuff and it’s gonna lead to us taking over and we’re gonna be backwards and traditional and etc… but so far we’re just living like nebody else (also you can get all sorts of awesome stuff b/c of the diversity in stores ) :

Yeah, the great quality of Chinese products! Like these Chinese electronic kitchen scales that break after three months. I have a mechanical scale with tare function that’s 100 years old, a bit inconvenient but I’m sticking to that now, it will surely work for another couple of years.

People change religions, leave religions, religions reform,

Look how static Islam was the last 1000 years.

and despite what the hysterics claim a 3% minority religion is not about to consume secular European society.

It’s 5%, not 3%.

RomanCandle
RomanCandle
10 years ago

the thread gets jacked by people who don’t want to examine the fact that MRAs sympathize and agree with a mass murderer

I’m certainly not an MRA, but the point alot of us are making is that there really isn’t a political philosophy (except for pacifism, I suppose) that hasn’t been taken to a murderous extreme at some point.

If you want to save the planet, it doesn’t mean you support the Unabomber or the dude who shot up the Discovery Channel last year. If you want the US to stop interfering in the Muslim world, that doesn’t mean you’re a member of al-Qaeda.

Unless these mass-murder-sympathizing MRAs of yours actually express approval for Breivik’s terrorism, painting them with such a broad brush is a real cheap shot.

no more mr nice guy
10 years ago

G.L. Piggy, even though Muslims living in ghettos is a big problem in Europe, they cannot take over the continent because there is not enough Muslims for that and anti-immigration parties are more and more popular in Europe.

And many MRAs are not against the way women are treated in Muslims countries, they admire it. That’s why many MRAs live in third world countries.

About the video, it’s from the NRK (national television of Norway) and they are not rabid racists but the subtitles are wrong. The video doesn’t talk about all rape in Oslo, it talks about assault rape, not domestic rape or date-rape.

filetofswedishfish
10 years ago

How hard could it possibly be for these guys to go “Wow. That was fucked up. Here are the ways that we don’t think, and they include bombing residences of Prime Ministers and island summer camps for kids, among many other things!”

Also, it’s pretty funny that even though he cites feminism as a reason for the “weakening” and “Islamification” of Europe, this thread has become debunking that oh em gee, teh moozlims are takingk overs!.

I’mma repeat that part: Breivik stated that what weakened Europe in the first place was feminism, making it so that men couldn’t fight back or whatever. He most certainly was an anti feminist. And who else blames society’s woes on a group that just wants everyone to be equal (besides the whole world)

Shora
10 years ago

@ Piggy

“I think it is a forgone conclusion that Islam is a more hostile religion than any other that currently exists – both in principle and in deed. I shouldn’t have to mention 9/11, London, Madrid. So you can complain about a guy burning the Koran, but you won’t get much sympathy from me.”

I think it is a forgone conclusion that Islam is a more hostile religion than any other that currently exists – both in principle and in deed. I shouldn’t have to mention the Westboro Baptist Church, and, I don’t know, this silly little thing that happened in oslo where a christian fundie gunned down 90 kids. Or something. I forget. Let me scroll up to to the original blog post that we are having this lovely little discussion on and refresh my memory. Anyway, my point is, is if anyone where to burn the bible, you wouldn’t get much sympathy from me.

(Just so you don’t get confused; you would actually get a lot of sympathy from me if someone burned a Qur’an, or the Bible, or the Torah, or any religious symbol or text that gives many people peace and comfort in their lives. I’m solidly agnostic, and disdain all religion, but I still think it is heinously dick to destroy holy books. What I’m actually doing here is repeating the kind of argument you’re making in another context to show how offensive it is.)

I am a decent and rational enough human being to not take the actions of a few as a judgement of the many. So I don’t judge all christians by the WBC, I don’t judge all muslims by Islamic Terrorists, I don’t judge all black people by those in jail, I don’t judge all women by Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin, and so on and so on and so on.

“To Shora specifically: what is offensive about me stating plain facts? Is it not true that Muslims in European countries tend to commit higher rates of crime, on average, than native Europeans?”

I’m no expert on the subject, but I’m pretty sure immigrants of all types tend to have more crime rates because they’re more likely to be poor and face discrimination in the country they’ve immigrated to and have more difficulty finding jobs and so on. I don’t really know, though, and I don’t know where i’d look for for a study. That’s just my guess

Regardless, you were not “just stating plain facts.” You were stating facts with a “gotcha” tone of “And this proves that Muslims are bad people!” It’s like if I brought up that men of color are over-represented in US jails with the smug implication that this fact means that black people are all/mostly violent criminals, and then act all wide-eyed and surprised when people called me out for being racist. You know very well what you were implying and you know very well that you are being a bigot. I refuse to insult your intelligence by treating you otherwise.

Shora
10 years ago

I’m sorry, Islam=Christianity. I dun goofed.

Mandos
10 years ago

I made the mistake of wading into GLP’s blog on the Schwyzer Spermgate issue, only to be confronted with a commenter population that believes that “dysgenic” is a term that makes sense. I came to the conclusion that, no, there was no common conceptual basis for any sort of discussion.

zombie rotten mcdonald
10 years ago

Just to float this out there, how do most of you feel about the prospects of unchecked Islamic immigration into Western Europe? I mean, it is only a matter of time before Muslims become the majority in Western countries.

@Pecunium: I floated this out in a previous thread, but probably got drowned in the trolly backscatter or new-thread excitement, but Wackypedia estimates the Muslim population of Norway at between 2 and 3.4%. That’s after an increase of about 10% between 2006 and 2009. I doubt that it is a coincidence that increase happened when there were a fair number of Muslims fleeing the Freedom Adventure in the Mideast.

Not exactly a tidal wave. And let’s face it, if your privileged racial advantage is threatened by a 10% increase over 2% over a period of three years, you may not be the dominant, world-defining force you think you are.

I mean, it is only a matter of time before Muslims become the majority in Western countries.

Only if you are unreasonably terrified of non-caucasians, and define “majority” as “sizable minority” or “increasingly diverse”

Diversity bothers some people. Has for quite some time. Doesn’t make it a reasonable fear.

zombie rotten mcdonald
10 years ago

It will happen eventually due to their high birth rates (is that bigoted to point out too?).

yes, it is, to answer your question.

But your assertion assumes that the races will remain segregated, and there is no support for that idea. History will show that as minority population increases, assimilation does too, and as assimilation increases, the minorities intermingle with the other parts of the population.

Or is THAT what really bothers you, sweetie? The intermingling? Or the possibility that your much-imagined race war is not really going to happen?

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

One can easily see elements of truth in the manifesto while disagreeing with Breivik’s tactics.

Hyu kep hyusing dat word. I do not believe it means what hyu tink it means.

Just to float this out there, how do most of you feel about the prospects of unchecked Islamic immigration into Western Europe?

Eets a kompleet myth. Why hyu ask?

“And just to float this out there, have you stopped beating your wife?”

I’m not Muslim so what do you think.

I tink datz a “NO” hyu hazn’t.
I’z gonna uze Jager speek nowz on diz board.
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

Aaronovitch
Aaronovitch
10 years ago

Ferdinand calls Breivik a “lunatic”, a “madman”, a “sick individual”, his act “horrifying” and that “he should be persecuted to the fullest extent of the law.” Yeah, sounds like a ringing endorsement to me. So is this the new liberal meme? If you defend any opinions that appear similar to those shared by Breivik, then you are defending his actions and you must be a terrorist sympathizer. This makes zero sense.

There are strict Muslims who are not violent, would you apply to same criteria to them? No, you wouldn’t. You would judge Islam for a few bad apples. Guilt by association only applies to white guys and nobody else.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

VoiP asked if I beat my wife and I responded with a joke about Muslims.

Hy vaz just jokeen! Vhy hyu feemeeneest hast to be zo schrill?!

I think it is a forgone conclusion that Islam is a more hostile religion than any other that currently exists – both in principle and in deed. I shouldn’t have to mention 9/11, London, Madrid.

No, but hyu schould mention de Gulf Warz, de Ahfghan Warz, de infasion ov Iraq, de remote bombinks ov Yemen und Lybia, de no flyz zonez bhefoor dat, de embhargoes bhefoor dat, de sellink ov nerve ghaz tzo de leaderz ov Iraq durink their warz mit Iran, und de arming ov bot de mujahadeen und de taliban. Und hyu callz Izlam hochtile?
Got mit unz?
Manhifest Dhestiny?

Is it not true that Muslims in European countries tend to commit higher rates of crime, on average, than native Europeans?

Vat hybout oll de fooking Hyrish?

kristinmh
kristinmh
10 years ago

It’s way upthread, I know, but I wanted to give Mr. Al props for no longer identifying as an MRA. Any Pharyngulites will know what I mean by this, but I think he’ll be our Walton.

Also, GL Piggy, freaking out over Muslims out-breeding “us” is dumb and ignores the history of immigration to, well, pretty much anywhere. I mean, my grandparents were non-English-speaking religious fanatics who moved to an ethnic enclave and had a boatload of minority religion children. Their religion was considered a dangerous threat to law and order and public morality.

They were German Catholics and the ethnic enclave was rural Alberta pre WW1. My dad was their 11th child (out of 12). I have the distinction of being the youngest of 40-odd cousins and have more 2nd and 3rd cousins than I know of. Almost none of my cousins or 2nd cousins speak any German whatsoever and only one has had more than 3 kids (one of my 2nd cousins had, I think, her 7th last year, but she’s more a hippie than a Quiverfull). We range from atheists to run-of-the-mill Catholics to a few Jehovah’s Witnesses.

In other words, those scary ethnic people with their funny religion* and weird language had children and grandchildren who are seamlessly integrated into the mainstream. That’s what happened with basically every immigrant group to Canada ever. Why do you think Muslims will be any different?

*And if anyone says “But Catholicism isn’t oppressive to women! Islam is!” I will tell you some stories from the 14 years of Catholic school I went through.

Pecunium
10 years ago

G.L. Piggy: The loaded question you don’t care about is the one you posed, and VOIP was pointing out. It’s right up there with the veiled insult at, “secular liberals”.

It’s not a legitimate point to say that “msulims are outbreeding ‘us’ and they are nasty too,” and then saying it’s because we hate christianity.

I really don’t think the bigot you are being needed anything more than they least, manufactured, excuse for you to release it. The ways in which you say things makes it fairly plain you are an angry bigot.

Looking at history… better to be a Christian under a Muslim ruler than the reverse. Look at the sack of Jerusalem when the Crusaders caputured it, and then the non-sack when Saladin captured it.

Newsflash, just as all Christians aren’t like Brievik, not all Muslims are like Khomeni.

That you pretend to not see this is why you are a bigot, wailing about the Evils of Islam, scared they will outbreed your unmarried ass* and we are disgusted at the things you say about women (and now Muslims).

Care, by the way, to respond to the fact that 40 percent of the rapes in that survey were committed by Norwegians? Care also too look at the rates of outgroup rape in other cultures? Guess what… I’ll bet outgroup rape is higher everywhere, and in some of those places it’s not muslims in the outgroup).

About your “hostile religion crap”

Christian Dominioninsm

Were you one of the bleating crowd who was all upset when the DoJ pointed out the profile for terrorists in the US is White, male, Christian

Care to guess what the profile is for terrorists in Europe?

It’s not Muslim

The results are stark, and prove decisively that not all terrorists are Muslims. In fact, a whopping 99.6% of terrorist attacks in Europe were by non-Muslim groups; a good 84.8% of attacks were from separatist groups completely unrelated to Islam. Leftist groups accounted for over sixteen times as much terrorism as radical Islamic groups. Only a measly 0.4% of terrorist attacks from 2007 to 2009 could be attributed to extremist Muslims.

So yeah… we aren’t worried about Muslims. Because, contrary to the weak-kneed fear of the idiots like you, we have a fairly solid grasp on reality, and look at the facts.

*Dude, if you are so worried about them outbreeding you, get to work. I know there are groups out there also worrying about this, and would love to have a stud of your demonstrably similar thinking in the stable.

First, of course, you have to get a wife.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Damn tag-fail. There are two links in the big-block-o-link-text.

The second one at, “White Christian Dominionists”

Pecunium
10 years ago

Er, White, male, Christian. I think I need coffee.

Pecunium
10 years ago

cynikal: It’s not the fucking Irish you need to worry about* it’s the fighting Irish.

*unless you are worried about them outbreeding you.

Things Are Bad
10 years ago

Your intent is as clear as your love for logical fallacies, manboob: lie, twist, smear.

Things Are Bad
10 years ago

And RW summed it up what should be obvious, July 26, 2011 at 5:25 am

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

@Pecunium

Hy’m vorried ’boutz mizzink oot.
Hy gotz ah veekness fer de redhedz.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Things Are Bad: I’m not surprised you are defending Brievik, when you agree with things like this:

I don’t think I ever suggested that Mack, himself, should be exonerated and, at the time that I wrote the piece, my main point was that it was both dishonest and disingenuous for MRA authors to assume in advance that men who murdered their partners – like Mack – were simply bad or ‘evil’.

And I still hold to that position.

and this:

Norway shootings: Wow, another madman with a sensible manifesto. Another completely rational, intelligent man driven to murderous insanity. And once again, society has zero introspection in regards to its profound ability to turn thoughtful men into lunatic butchers. If you want proof of Breivin’s lucidity, peruse his absurdly long manifesto, …which is poorly edited and rambling but otherwise a scarily accurate summation of alt-right thought – hence why the alt-right has been either ignoring the Norway story or rushing to dissociate themselves from him.

The time required to index the fallacies in your own thinking… well I have a lunch date, and need to file a change of address at the post office.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

I get it that Chuck doesn’t like Muslims, thinks they’re dangerous and everything, but … is he also trying to say that the reason that Breivik murdered 92 ethnic Norwegians is because he wanted to protect the mostly Muslim victims of the Muslim rapists in his country?

I’m kind of secondarily confused by Chuck’s argument, after reading so many MRAs lately state that they don’t think rape is that big a deal. So either Chuck is breaking with the rape-apologia section of the MRM and agrees with feminists that rape is, in fact, a very big deal, or he likes to trot it out as a very big deal when convenient for his argument, and treat it otherwise when not.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

RW: “I think the psychological differences between Brevik and the average MRA are more important than the ideological similarities. It’s pretty much always personal psychology that is decisive in triggering spree killing, not ideology.

“We can obviously debate how particular psychologies gravitate toward particular ideologies. I think we’d ultimately end up at somewhere very self evident: that many people embrace the same political ideology for very similar reasons, but act on them in different ways and in doing so always put their own personal inflection on them.”

Not really, though. Moderates don’t go on killing sprees hoping to start a revolution. It’s really only people whose ideologies and pet issues are dismissed by the majority as worthless, laughable, or unnecessary who do that. (And yes, there is a psychological component as well — but I’d say that the ideology is at least as telling as the psychological aspect.)

That’s where the MRM and Breivik have something in common. They’ve marginalized themselves through their beliefs. They want these beliefs to be mainstream, but they are (rightly) laughed at, when they say things like women are only good for breeding stock, women’s rights need to be taken away, etc. We saw some MRAs come out after Thomas Ball’s self-immolation and say that they wanted to see a violent revolution. I’m really having a hard time seeing why we can’t discuss the MRM and Breivik in the same light.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Bee: “Real Rape” is a big deal. And we all know rape is 1: Violent, and 2: Committed by people we can vilify. White College Kids (who are still kids, even though they are in their late teens/early twenties, not like the “non-children” on Utoya), don’t commit rape, esp. not if the play sports.

Young Black Men, however, are very prone to rape, esp. when they get near white women.

shaenon
10 years ago

I’m kind of secondarily confused by Chuck’s argument, after reading so many MRAs lately state that they don’t think rape is that big a deal. So either Chuck is breaking with the rape-apologia section of the MRM and agrees with feminists that rape is, in fact, a very big deal, or he likes to trot it out as a very big deal when convenient for his argument, and treat it otherwise when not.

Like mass murder and terrorism, rape is only a problem when brown people do it.

A hundred years ago, the right wing in the U.S. was busy freaking out over how Real True Americans would be outbred by those barbaric Irish, and Western civilization would be destroyed if Anglo-Saxon women didn’t get busy making more white babies. (Irish, Italians, ethnic Jews, and Eastern Europeans weren’t considered “white” then.) Fast-forward to today: around 70% of Americans identify as having some Irish ethnicity. The doomsayers were right! Those filthy immigrants won the baby-making war!

And the civilization-shattering results… Well, there was that time my brother Conor got drunk and kicked out a bus window at a St. Patrick’s Day parade. But like my mother said at the time, it was completely unfair that they fined him since he didn’t even remember doing it.

summer_snow
summer_snow
10 years ago

I think it would be awesome if everyone on Manboobz started using nonstandard English! We’d lose 90% of our trolls overnight because they’d be too lazy to read what we wrote.

Ami can keep posting in her own dialect, Pecunium can use Middle English, cynickal can use a Jagermonster accent, and the rest of us will just have to start smurfing it up and ryplycyng yll yyr vywyls wyth ys.

zombie rotten mcdonald
10 years ago

Real True Americans would be outbred by those barbaric Irish, and Western civilization would be destroyed if Anglo-Saxon women didn’t get busy making more white babies.

well, it did result in Pat Buchanan, so maybe they had a point.

zombie rotten mcdonald
10 years ago

I think it would be awesome if everyone on Manboobz started using nonstandard English! We’d lose 90% of our trolls overnight because they’d be too lazy to read what we wrote.

hmpf. like they ever read any of the comments before. They’ll still just cherry pick something, misrepresent what was said, and use it to flog their own hobby horses yet again.

Pecunium
10 years ago

summer_snow: I can decipher middle English, I cant speak it, and writing it.. ouch… lots of non-standard letters. I am good back to about Wycliff for early modern, and I speak a few dialects of modern, but that seems differently affected.

On the other hand, it would be occasionally amusing.

no more mr nice guy
10 years ago

I’m kind of secondarily confused by Chuck’s argument, after reading so many MRAs lately state that they don’t think rape is that big a deal. So either Chuck is breaking with the rape-apologia section of the MRM and agrees with feminists that rape is, in fact, a very big deal, or he likes to trot it out as a very big deal when convenient for his argument, and treat it otherwise when not.

Many MRAs see Muslim men as super Alpha men and they are jealous. According to MRAs women want to live in the harem of an Alpha man that treat them like shit and many women are abused when they are married to a Muslim. I’ve seen MRAs blogs where they were talking about the marriage rate between European native women and Muslims and they were saying it’s because these women see Muslims as Alpha men. It’s not because MRAs care about the safety of women.

summer_snow
summer_snow
10 years ago

Pecunium: Wait… you can’t do everything? The Magyk cards have lied to me!

ithiliana
10 years ago

David, you’re not the only one to see the connections between Breivik and the MRA with regard to their anti-feminist fears around cultural changes in gender roles:

A Tale of Two Terrorists Redux by Michael Kimmell at Sociological Images

For the past five years, I’ve been researching and writing about the extreme right in both the United States and Scandinavia. I’ve interviewed 45 contemporary American neo-Nazis, White Supremacists, Aryan youth, Patriots, Minutemen, and members of rural militias. I also read documentary materials in the major archival collections at various libraries on the extreme right. I then interviewed 25 ex-neo-Nazis in Sweden. All were participants in a government-funded program called EXIT, which provides support and training for people seeking to leave the movement. (This included twice interviewing “the most hated man in Sweden,” Jackie Arklof, who murdered two police officers during a botched bank robbery. Arklof is currently serving a life sentence at Kumla High Security prison in Orebro. To my knowledge, I’m the only researcher to date to have interviewed him as well as members of EXIT.)

I’ve learned a lot about how the extreme right understands what is happening to their countries, and why they feel called to try and stop it. And one of the key things I’ve found is that the way they believe that global economic changes and immigration patterns have affected them can be understood by looking at gender, especially masculinity. (Don’t misunderstand: it’s not that understanding masculinity and gender replaces the political economy of globalization, the financial crisis, or the perceived corruption of a previously pristine national culture. Not at all. But I do believe that you can’t understand the extreme right without also understanding gender.)

First, they feel that current political and economic conditions have emasculated them, taken away the masculinity to which they feel they are entitled by birth. In the U.S., they feel they’ve been emasculated by the “Nanny State” through taxation, economic policies and political initiatives that demand civil rights and legal protection for everyone. They feel deprived of their entitlement (their ability to make a living, free and independent) by a government that now doles it out to everyone else – non-whites, women, and immigrants. The emasculation of the native-born white man has turned a nation of warriors into a nation of lemmings, or “sheeple” as they often call other white men. In The Turner Diaries, the movement’s most celebrated text, author William Pierce sneers at “the whimpering collapse of the blond male,” as if White men have surrendered, and have thus lost the right to be free.

Bostonian
Bostonian
10 years ago

johnnykaje, I’m sorry I insulted the KKK’s organizational skills.

ithiliana
10 years ago

GL Piggy: re Ami’s style.

I’m an English professor, and I love Ami’s writing style. Like any different set of conventions, it can take a while to get used to, but keep reading and you’ll become more Ami-literate which is all to the good.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

Ohhhhh right. I forgot the rape/rape-rape distinction, and the thing about the poor omega male who can’t get any vs. some scary alpha dude lunging out of the shadows. Plus, the false rape accusations probably only apply … at convenient times, or something? (i.e., when someone is accusing a white guy of rape, and not when they’re accusing a non-white guy or a non-guy).

To tell the truth, I don’t really get why Muslim men are alpha men. Aren’t they just … guys who practice a common religion? Does it give them sekrit powers?!

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

well, it did result in Pat Buchanan, so maybe they had a point.

Hey, Pat Buchanan is Scots-Irish, just like Rev. Paisley. He’s Catholic because his mother was German Catholic.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
10 years ago

“I think it is a forgone conclusion that Islam is a more hostile religion than any other that currently exists – both in principle and in deed. I shouldn’t have to mention 9/11, London, Madrid. So you can complain about a guy burning the Koran, but you won’t get much sympathy from me. ”

We’re not talking about a guy burning the Koran. We’re talking about guys who keep murdering people or trying to murder people based on their religious and political convictions who just happen to be a). white and b). of right-wing and social conservative/fundamentalist christian leanings. Like Timothy McVeigh. Or Eric Robert Rudolph. Or William Krar. We’re talking about how the goalposts keep moving so that one guy identifying as muslim shooting up a recruiting station and killing two people because of the conflict in the Middle East is “ZOMG MUSLIM TERRORIST VANGUARD!!” but another guy who comes up with a calculated plan to wipe out the next generation of people he feels are handing over his country to marxists and muslims and then manages to kill almost 90 people in one fell swoop is “Just some lone nut nobody agrees with”.

And the only foregone conclusion here is that you’re a racist trying to cover your bigotry with a veneer of respectability. Sorry pal, some of us realize that you lot have become very PR-conscious over the past 20 years or so and we still recognize the dog-whistle stuff when we hear it.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

NWO suggested that terrorism is the only option for MRAs? o_O

Wouldn’t it be more fair to include it (this isn’t me curious btw, which I AM, but I get why you removed it xD I’m not trying to trick you into it) so that ppl can see what he said, b/c I’m sure NWO is gonna accuse you of claiming he said something he didn’t, conveniently omitting it, etc etc -_-

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

I think it would be awesome if everyone on Manboobz started using nonstandard English! We’d lose 90% of our trolls overnight because they’d be too lazy to read what we wrote.

In honor of my Trekkie roots, vill from now on vrite posts in Chekovese. Vhere are nuclear wessels?

kristinmh
kristinmh
10 years ago

I will write everything in IPA. Or I will when I find the special character codes for WordPress.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
10 years ago

@Johnny Pez:

“In honor of my Trekkie roots, vill from now on vrite posts in Chekovese. Vhere are nuclear wessels?”

Damn, now I have to see if I can find that website that can translate English into Jagermonster-speak from the Girl Genius webcomic.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
10 years ago

Und Hy em successful in findink it!

Pecunium
10 years ago

Marc: You are being dishonest again (perhaps yet… I’m beginning to wonder if you know how to be honest): You were the one who said only 9 percent of rape cases lead to convictions.

But even that isn’t relevant to what I was saying. G.L. Piggy said all rapes in a given period, in a given place, were caused by a given population.

I found the stats which showed he was wrong.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Roman Candle: I spent a career (16 years, medically retired) in Human Intelligence. I’ve been trained Intelligence in Combatting Terrorism (yeah, the Army has great course titles).

If a save-the-planet group started talking about killing people, and publishing parts of the unabomber manifesto, I’d be worried.

When a group as large as the MRA is (at least a few thousand, in the US) starts to use violent rhetoric, when members of the group start looking at extreme events (Lepine, Sodoni, Ball) and saying they are the tip of the iceberg, and that if the gov’t doesn’t start to listen to them more events like that are going to happen.

I worry.

When someone carries out a violent act, which he says is supposed to be the catalyst for more violence, and uses the justifications of that very group as some of his foundational literature. I worry.

Because at that point the rhetoric is starting to become action. It may be one person here and another person there, but mighty oaks from little acorns grow. Mussolini was just a paid thug breaking farmers’ strikes in the 1920’s. Look where that ended up.

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

Funny how you all whine and complain that feminism isn’t a monolithic block, yet you take the broadest brush the local hareware store has to offer and paint all Christians with one quick stroke. Doesn’t 1 guy gunning down innocent people who happens to be a Christian mean 1 billion didn’t?

Every feminist must therefore be a mixture of Solanas and Daly; Vile atheists bent on murdering 90% of men and keeping the rest around as slaves?

Remember, if ya don’t want to be painted with the broad brush, don’t do it to others.

peter
peter
10 years ago

Apologies above post should have read of course

Logical fallacy there David Just because someone you consider to be a mad man and or a terrorist says something does not make it automatically incorrect, more likely to be well… mad I guess.and god knows plenty of apparently sane people in government have caused more deaths than this.
Ideas should be argued on their own merits not on their source.
Its policy when a politician does it crazy or terrorism when its amateur hour.