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Excerpts of Norwegian terrorist Anders Breivik’s manifesto go over well on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit

The cover page of Breivik's manifesto

So somebody, and I honestly don’t know who, tried a little experiment last night on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit: claiming to be a “long time lurker and closet-convert to the MRM [with] some thoughts to share that I’ve been working on for a long time,” the (ostensibly male) prankster cut-and-pasted the excerpts of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik’s manifesto that I highlighted in my last post and presented them to the Men’s Rightsers as if they were his own writings.  The prankster also pretended to be posting on a throwaway account because his “GF has a reddit account and I’m not ready to open that bag of worms yet.” (All of the excerpts in question were from posts from far-right blogger Fjordman that Breivik had incorporated into his “manifesto.”)

So how did Breivik/Fjordman’s views (not identified as such) go over on r/MensRights? Pretty well, it turns out, with the post receiving (when last I checked) about twice as many upvotes as downvotes from the locals. “Nice post man.,” wrote darkamir in a comment.  To FascistOrigami, meanwhile,

The beautiful thing about this post (beyond the fact that it hits all the major issues): every feminist on reddit whose bf is also on reddit will be wondering if the OP is her guy.

The biggest bone of contention? That the (fictional) OP felt he had to hide his views from his (fictional) girlfriend.  “If you have a girlfriend who you have to hide things from, she should not be your girlfriend,” wrote one commenter. Others worried that the OP might be in an abusive relationship if “he” felt he couldn’t speak his mind. Tomek77, in perhaps the most ironic comment of the bunch, warned the OP that he might get a violent reaction if he revealed his views to his “GF.”

Just a piece of advice: I would be very careful about sharing your thoughts with your gf (if you care about your relationship).

For some reason that still escapes my understanding, many women go absolutely bat-shit crazy when they are faced with the reality of gender relations in the west.

To this day, I remember one of my ex-gf literally entering crazy-mode, screaming, yelling and physically shaking after I mentioned that it doesn’t make sense for men to get married under the current law. I swear, I was expecting to see foam coming from her mouth at any moment – and we have only been dating for a week!!

Even in more casual social settings, I have seen many women react very violently and irrationally when men’s issues were mentioned in the conversation. So proceed with caution..

Several hours after the original post, one of the regulars figured out what was going on. And posted a link to my post here on Breivik. Needless to say, my ideas got a much harsher reception than Breivik/Fjordman’s did, though judging from the comments very few of the regulars actually bothered to read my post before arriving at their conclusions about it.

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Aaron Armstrong
Aaron Armstrong
9 years ago

You could find Valerie Solanas quotes that all feminists would agree with. Hell, some feminists endorse her whole book, even when they know she tried to kill a man.

Aaron Armstrong
Aaron Armstrong
9 years ago

For example:

http://www.cassyfiano.com/2009/11/feminists-praise-man-hater-valerie-solanas

There’s even a feminist convention in her honor. Wake me up when MRA’s hold a convention in Breivik’s honor.

http://allecto.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/scum-radical-feminist-conference/

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Aaron:

No, its true, you could find bits and pieces of even psychotics that you could agree with. The thing about linking anyone to a killer is as follows: is there a reasonable line of argument to go from the source to killing people.

I don’t know much about Valerie Solanas, but I’d bet that most feminists would not endorse any ideologies she had concerning, hinting at, or resulting in the murder or wiping out of men.

On the other hand, MRAs talk about shooting people, terrorism, violence towards women, and so on. It isn’t hard to draw a line of argument from talking about violence to actually doing it. That is why the connection is troublesome.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Aaron:

Also, your first link involves a self described radical feminist praising radical ideas. Shocker. Wake me up when feminists praise the SCUM manifesto or Valerie Solanas.

Aaron Armstrong
Aaron Armstrong
9 years ago

The first link discussed a post on Feministing, probably the largest feminist blog of them all. Are you saying Feministing is outside the feminist mainstream?

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

I have read the S.C.U.M. manifesto. I was curious after the independent film, I Shot Andy Warhol, was released. Solanas’ screed does, in fact, touch on some of the ideas that inform mainstream and radical feminism. I don’t think that equals an endorsement of her, her written work, or her attempts to murder.

I am a feminist and I soundly reject Solanas’ beliefs that men are genetically inferior, incapable of love, and her call for gendercide.

As for MRAs holding a convention in Breivak’s honor:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=celebrating+marc+lepine&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Time will tell.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Aaron:

Here is the full quoted text:

I have been a huge fan of Valerie Solarna’s for a few years now, she is as instrumental to my radical feminism and queer theory as Beauvoir or Lorde. I am curious, for most of the people on this website tend to be more of the liberal feminist types, what do you all make of this manifesto? You don’t have to read “the whole thing”, but it’s not very long so I hope I persuade you to do so by simply saying it is WORTH reading. I’d love to hear your thoughts of shock, disgust, dismay, love, laughter, joy, and how this manifesto compares to our awful contemporary postion, as womyn…in this world.

So yeah, it isn’t all of feministing that is supporting the quote, and the one quoted self-describes as a radical. I’m saying that radicals do not define the entire movement.

vacuumslayer
9 years ago

I’ve recently wondered how much overlap there is between the wingnut world and the MRA world. I would think…significant.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Kirby, I’d also like to point out that within the comments posted on this, and one other thread I found that touches on Radical Feminism, there is no consensus. There are active debates between feminists self-identifying as “Radical” and “Mainstream”. Hardly a complete endorsement of the S.C.U.M. manifesto, Solanas, or murder.

vacuumslayer
9 years ago

So yeah, it isn’t all of feministing that is supporting the quote, and the one quoted self-describes as a radical. I’m saying that radicals do not define the entire movement.

On the contrary, I’d say that like most liberal ideologies, the kooks are pushed to the fringes and roundly denounced by the main of the believers. Unlike right-wing ideologies, wherein the kookiest elements are often embraced.

Nahida
9 years ago

Tried to kill a man?

Okay, seriously? When you find a feminist who’s an anti-Islamic neo-Nazi racist white supremacist going on a family killing spree we’ll have a comparison.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@vacuumslayer:

On the contrary, I’d say that like most liberal ideologies, the kooks are pushed to the fringes and roundly denounced by the main of the believers. Unlike right-wing ideologies, wherein the kookiest elements are often embraced.

I don’t know if I’d make the leap to right-wing and liberal, but some ideologies do actually have a written manifesto (religious ones, usually), and even the fringes have to stick to it’s confines. With the SCUM manifesto, we have a document that most feminists simply don’t accept, and yet to MRAs it is the bible of our movement.

The MRM does not have a similar manifesto either. But so many of its followers, MRAs, seem to be stuck in the anti-woman and violence promoting camp that one can draw a pretty stable line of argument from that to murder. Feminism, by contrast, is mostly pro-woman or pro-equity, neither of which can really lead to gendercide.

JenniferP
JenniferP
9 years ago

Good prank! Bravo, anonymous prankster.

Bostonian
Bostonian
9 years ago

Dude, these guys are basically the Stormfront. There is nothing too hateful or evil for them to endorse.

-
-
9 years ago

Valerie Solarna

Just a long time lurker here, but I remember reading a webcomic from one of her friend’s daughters (can’t remember who it was, I want to think it was the same person who did the huge Harry Potter storyline on one page but I think it was someone very similar) discussing why she wrote that and the fallout from it. Wish I could remember the link. 🙁

Anyway, back to discussing semi-Nazi, misogynist, fundie xenophobic mass murdering fuck heads. And none of that surprises me about MRA reddit, I give it a few years before there’s a bad incident involving them.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

Yeah, it was kind of awesome to see them hurry to distance themselves from the guy… I liked this little exchange.

Okay, normally I would say its important that we denounce anyone who uses the MRA label to justify being an asshole but… seriously? He doesn’t say shit about Mens Rights. His only connection to us is that he critiques feminism. Apparently anyone who critiques feminism is to be lumped in with mass murderers now. How predictable.

And the reply.

Did he critique a lot of things and feminism, or was it mainly feminism. If the first we are in the clear, if the second we have to admit that we have the same sentiments as a terrorist. Which doesn’t bother me actually, it is possible that we have a legitimate complaint and that he did too. We choose activism, he chose terrorism. As do many who feel extremely downtrodden.

So if he wasn’t just against feminism, great! If not, well, he probably had some legitimate excuse to mow down over 90 people.. Yeah. The “in the clear” statement echos a little strangely in that regard.

Also, I like how this person thinks that MRAs mainly address feminism, not, you know, Men’s Rights… Little things, further reinforcing the idea that MRAs are not pro-men, they are anti-woman.

filetofswedishfish
9 years ago

So, I’ve been a feminist since I was a teenager. And I think it’s telling that I never heard of Valerie Solanas until my first Women’s Studies class in college. And the way I heard about her? My professor went “And then there was Solanas. She was an attempted murderer, psychotic, and very unbalanced. Her radical views on gender relations horrifically skewed the opinions of many on feminism, and while we can try all we want to denounce her, she will be trotted out every time feminism is discussed.”

I also think it’s telling that in a community like reddit, where people vote on the most popular opinions with up and down votes, that this sort of violent, hateful rhetoric is ok until 1. They connect the dots and realize this was the terrorist from Norway, and even then it would probably kind of be hush-hushed but not denounced until 2. they found out they were being pranked. I’m betting that’s what did it. Not the fact that this guys was actually acting on their opinions.

filetofswedishfish
9 years ago

Also, reading their comments: They assume Bobbit and Kieu were feminists, when we haven’t actually heard them air their opinions, and all they did were two similar, heinous acts of violence. But- we can’t call this guy an MRA even though he DID air his opinions, they sounded like what we read on many MRA blogs every day, and he *acted* on the violence present in those sentiments? Color me unsurprised.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Bostonian:

So these guys are basically MRA radicals? Do you know a good forum of more moderate MRAs, so we can see their reactions to this mess?

Bostonian
Bostonian
9 years ago

Oh no! I meant that all MRAs are like that! Their whole “movement” is that way, as far as I can tell from what they write online.

JenniferP
JenniferP
9 years ago

BTW, David, the headline of this post should have the words “Surprising no one,…” at the beginning.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Bostonian:

Sorry, a little tired. 🙂 Well, if anything, their more vocal members are indeed pretty extreme. But they seem to have started as a reaction to feminism, not a response to men’s issues… It’s little wonder then that all of their products seem to be reactionary crap.

Bostonian
Bostonian
9 years ago

No worries kirbywarp, my phrasing was off, I think.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I think what this experiment demonstrates isn’t MRAs’ agreement with the manifestos of spree killers–although there’s overlap, certainly–but MRAs’ vulnerability to groupthink. The manifesto posted to craigslist was disjointed and frankly barely readable, and I think most of the people reading it actually noticed that. But they couldn’t argue with it, because it was sort of MRA-shaped, and to give anything other than approval would make put them on the side of the white knight mangina feminazis.

I don’t think this experiment necessarily shows that MRAs have everything in common with spree killers–but it does show that their movement is extremely hostile to internal criticism and values “on our side” more than “makes any goddamn sense.”

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

reddit, not craigslist. cripes.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Holly:

Well, this particular spree killer, anyway. It must be a real mind-bender for them when feminists say “Who, Valerie Solanas? Yeah, she may call herself a feminist, but I think she’s pretty terrible, and doesn’t represent our views.” Like… Wait, you can’t just go against the group like that! You’d be down-voted to oblivion!

vacuumslayer
9 years ago

I never heard of her ’til I started lurking here. I’m not exactly a spring chicken. That should tell you something.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Kirby – I also think it’s a bit telling that Valerie Solanas died 23 freaking years ago, and there is no apparent heir to the “evil feminist” throne except a tiny handful of anonymous angry blog posts that MRAs continually pass around like sacred texts.

Spearhafoc
9 years ago

I first learned about Valerie Solanas from Venture Brothers.

They had an episode with characters who were basically the Scooby Doo gang crossed with famous murderers. The Velma analogue was “Val,” whose lines were all direct quotations from The SCUM Manifesto. I thought they were doing a bad parody of feminists until I learned what the character was based on.

My favourite, though, was “Sonny” (Shaggy) who had hallucinations of his dog telling him to kill people (like the Son of Sam, obviously).

ithiliana
9 years ago

Echoing the points made above that Valerie Solanis is in no way know by, considered representative of, or celebrated by most feminists–AND the fact that anti-feminists cannot come up with a dozen more “terrorist feminists” is also notable. And by terrorist feminists, I mean self identified feminists who go out and shoot at people or try to blow them up, just like all those nice white Christian men do.

Plus, while women do kill, the “pick up weapons and kill as many strangers as possible based on an extreme ideology in public” killing sprees seem to be mostly done by men.

I don’t think it’s “natural”–it’s very much in the social construction of a traditional masculinity. But it is (as far as I know) only men.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

there is no apparent heir to the “evil feminist” throne

Andrea Dworkin, the source of all evil. In David’s evil feminist quote list, out of 43 evil feminist quotes, 10 were more-or-less genuine Dworkin, one was an unverified Dworkin, and one was a fictional character who was misidentified as Dworkin — over a quarter of the total.

Bostonian
Bostonian
9 years ago

Dworkin is also dead though….

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Johnny Pez – These guys are really going to have to find someone who’s alive one of these days if they want to make the case that their persecution is ongoing.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

The first time I heard of Solanis was in college in the early 80s, when I read Jean Stein’s biography of Edie Sedgwick.

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

The first time I heard of her was when the movie came out. I was never a big fan of the Factory crowd.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

Holly – Hillary Clinton was in the running for a while, but she sort of dropped off the wingnut radar after Bill’s term ended. Ah, if only she had been elected President . . .

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Hillary had an unfortunate tendency to not advocate for gendercide or even talk about men’s inferiority, though. She’s not an Evil Feminist, she’s just a garden-variety Uppity Woman.

G.L. Piggy
9 years ago

Yet much of Breivik’s focus on feminism is due to it’s use as a leveraging tool to allow Muslims into his country. Breivik seems only to care about feminism because it softens the country against immigration that he disapproves of. So I find it curious that you attach Breivik to MRAs when only 19 pages (of over 1500 in pdf version) of it was devoted directly to feminism. Even then he wrote about how feminism helped grease the wheels for Islam’s entrance into his country.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

Yeah, it looks like Dworkin’s reign of terror from beyond the grave will continue unabated.

Bostonian
Bostonian
9 years ago

Zombie Dworkin?

Sharculese
9 years ago

So I find it curious that you attach Breivik to MRAs when only 19 pages (of over 1500 in pdf version) of it was devoted directly to feminism.

The point isn’t that Breivik was an MRA (I certainly hope we’re not exporting something so embarrassing), but that a crazy murderers inspirations and thought process are so in line with MRA reasoning that they can’t distinguish the two.

Even then he wrote about how feminism helped grease the wheels for Islam’s entrance into his country.

‘kayyy? crazy anti-feminist makes crazy claims about feminism. not sure where that helps your case, champ.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

I think the first time I heard of Solanas was in Ultra Violet’s autobiography. Not exactly mainstream.

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

And it’s not just the anti-feminist diatribe that looks the same. In the Thomas Ball thread on the Spearhead, MRAs voiced hopes that a similar event will happen in their countries, for their pet issues. More than a few commenters warned of future suicide bombings and other acts of violence, of which Ball’s self-immolation was but a precursor. Mind you, not all of them were, certainly; many advocated simply fleeing the country or engaging in nonviolent protest. But jeez. Anyone thinking that there are no parallels to be drawn here has gotta be kidding.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Sharculese, it makes perfect sense. Being a misogynist and anti-feminist is fine as long as you don’t have anything against women, personally, and are just in a murderous rage because they’re refusing their obligations as breeding stock.

Pecunium
9 years ago

It’s interesting that the people who come here to defend themselves don’t really say, “but we don’t think like he does” so much as they say, “Feminists are as bad as he is.”

Which is a form of cheap justification. If my enemy is bad, then I am allowed to be bad too.

I’m amused that it was a reference to Man Boobz which was used to blow the lid off of the whole thing.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Here’s a thought

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Pecunium – That happens a lot. The traditional MRA response to accusations of misogyny isn’t “we’re not misogynistic,” it’s “you’re misandrist!”

I’ve heard a lot of “feminists hate men,” but not so much “we don’t hate women.”

Which may tie back into the groupthink thing. (As well as some plain old “if a feminist tries to make me say the sky is blue, I won’t give her the satisfaction” stubbornness.) I think saying “I don’t hate women” is another one of those things that makes you a white knight mangina and gets you voted off the island.

zombie rotten mcdonald

Wackypedia lists Norway’s Muslim population as estimated between 2 and 3.4%. Not quite a tidal wave there. It says the number increased by about 10% between 2006 and 2009; not surprising considering how many Muslims were departing from America’s Mideast Adventureland.

Guess it’s the resurrection of the “one drop” theory.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Right, NAWALT, but everyone I have ever met, or will ever meet is like that; “no, not you dearie, you’re different… be a love and make me a sandwich.”

Pecunium
9 years ago

Sorry… I was trying to make it plain that on the MRA fora they say that, not that I somehow believe it.

I didn’t sleep well.

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