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antifeminism beta males creepy misogyny MRA oppressed men PUA rapey reactionary bullshit sex sluts statutory rape apologists the spearhead video

“Even if the teen showed you a fake ID, you are still a criminal,” and other grave injustices.

Here’s a little video that takes a look at some PUAs and MRAs who share a great love for underage girls … and a hatred of the word “pedophile.” If some of the quotes in the video look familiar, that’s because they’re from a creepy mini-manifesto called “Age of Consent is Misandry,” which we examined here not too long ago. The rest are from a thread on Roissy’s Citizen Renegade blog that really has to be read to be believed.  You’ll notice one, er, interesting comment from a guy calling himself “Welmer.” That’s our good friend W.F. Price from The Spearhead.

Enjoy?

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Ion
Ion
9 years ago

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the age of consent thing work both ways, i.e., it’s also illegal for a woman to have sex with a boy under 18? Because then it’s not really misandry…

I don’t believe a 20-year old should go to prison for having consensual sex with his 17-year old girlfriend, but that’s another topic.

Sharculese
9 years ago

You’re right. Here’s Georgia’s statutory rape law, which if I recall is typical, aside from putting the age of consent at 16:

“A person commits the offense of statutory rape when he or she engages in sexual intercourse with any person under the age of 16 years and not his or her spouse, provided that no conviction shall be had for this offense on the unsupported testimony of the victim.”

Sophie
Sophie
9 years ago

Ummm… In regards to the first comment of the video, I’m a “bleeder” (what a gross word) with hips and breasts. I’m also 14. Just because someone has a period does not mean it’s ok for a 30 year old to have sex with them.

Papr1ka
Papr1ka
9 years ago

I know every state is different, Ion, but where I live (Ohio) the age of consent is 16, so a 20-year-old having sex with a 17-year-old is not an issue. Again though, I’m aware that every state is different, and in some states, having sex with anyone under the age of 18 is in fact considered a crime. Maybe we should re-examine that.

On the one hand, with the concept of adolescence, we do not view those under the age of 18 as being capable of being full-fledged adults. Actually, we often perceive those as being younger than in their mid-twenties as being “kids”. That being said, one may argue that because we treat these folks as children, they act as such. On the other hand, from a psychological perspective, we can approach the idea that those in their mid teens are not inherently capable of making well-thought-out adult decisions (i.e., having sex with someone much older, or getting their own credit card).

Either way, from my own experiences, when I recall being 16 I do not see myself as having been very mature. I was incredibly impressionable, impulsive, and not good at thinking for myself all of the time. So whether I was “old enough” or I had been coddled into this state of mind by society, I would not have been well-prepared for an older man “running game” or being seductive toward me. Granted, when I did experience this, I did not “fall for it”, but became afraid and withdrew from the social interaction.

This issue in and of itself is a thorny one, but the fact of the matter is, young teenagers are not generally well-prepared for sexual encounters with older men. I cannot say whether we need to change the behaviors of our society, or whether it is something that goes along with being a certain age. It can be unfair to men in their early twenties who are interested in having a relationship with someone who is really only two to three years younger than them. But it also can be unfair to the girl in question, who may be superficially enamored with the older man’s social capabilities, abilities to obtain drugs & alcohol, and so on. So in that respect, if a guy is in a state where the age of consent is 18, I don’t think it’s asking too much for him to wait one, two, maybe three years before he engages in sexual intercourse with his girlfriend, if he really cares about her that much. If the relationship is that devoted, I imagine that her parents or legal guardians would also be involved, and if they approved of the girl’s boyfriend, would not abhor him and seek legal action against him should they discover that the two were having sex.

That’s just my two cents, though. It’s an issue that I am sometimes concerned about and troubled with, especially when two people are together who really are not terribly far apart in age. In general though I believe that the age of consent laws tend to be fair.

PMScapades
9 years ago

You know, maybe this is just me being an asshole, but when I see a grown man complaining that he can’t legally have sex with teenagers, it makes me think he’s too immature and socially stunted to relate to women his own age. It bears more than a whiff of “but the women over 18 are just so much harder to take advantage of!”

ApeMan1976
9 years ago

x/2+7 should be encoded in law. xkcd can solve everything

Puella Sapiens
Puella Sapiens
9 years ago

Some relevant information, because I find that these tidbits are often overlooked in conversations about age of consent and/or age-gap relationships.

There is fairly good indication that the differences in maturity and ability to make rational judgements found between those in their teens and early twenties and older adults are not just products of culture:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Bm5isJDD8xQJ:www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/criminal_justice_section_newsletter/crimjust_juvjus_Adolescence.pdf+adolescent+brain+development&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESikeR7efKFBgdj8oS5nTTHFQHntIRuHxDxKRefMLDa2qIriLpbTZ6AUeCMedVT1wdZo17CRoyPp1itf3xAjWzZHgOKAGDbEc2QRyKATdJEfr7xmJVGL6Cx4hmSZM6cLPPmoTzo9&sig=AHIEtbQGPKHZsMz6IHxWmih-x8PLSCKYAQ

I’ve also seen statistics claiming that young women in relationships with significantly older partners experience higher rates of several sex-related risks, though I’ve not examined them in-depth.

http://www.scarleteen.com/article/crisis/why_i_deeply_dislike_your_older_boyfriend

To be clear, there are obvious and calculable ways in which underage men having relationships with older women are also at greater risk, the most gender-specific being a product of their impulsivity, the fact that decisions about carrying a fetus to term are the province of the female partner, and child-support laws.

As a side note, the apparent better-preparedness of younger women in other cultures and earlier generations to bear the responsibilities of child-rearing can, I think, be largely attributed to the fact that their life choices are/were far more restricted, in practice if not in theory (though often in theory, too). It’s much easier to make the best decision for yourself when, realistically, you only have one or two potential avenues of action. There are other possible justifications to be made for early ages of marriageability in other times and/or places, but they hinge on issues of verifiability of paternity, economic support, and in some cases maternal and infant health (though this also poses an enormous problem at the low end of what may be considered a marriageable age), and are for that reason largely bereft of argumentative weight when discussing developed countries.

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

My favorite comment: “Reading these posts, you’d think that there were roving bands of teenage girls raping innocent men in the streets.”

It’s hilarious how these horny middle-aged guys needs must imagine that teenage girls are “flirting” or “coming on” to them.

Holly Pervocracy
Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I can’t give my full approval to a video that talk about “game” and “level 3 beta males,” sorry.

But the “it’s okay to fuck kids if they’re horny/sexy” thing just drives me nuts. That’s the whole reason statutory rape is distinguished from forcible rape–a child or young teenager may indeed ask for it, but they don’t have the capacity and experience to know exactly what they’re asking for. “She so totally consented” isn’t meaningful with someone who legally can’t consent.

Also, if you have to ask your sexual partners for ID, I feel like you’re already doing something wrong.

Nobby
9 years ago

Some states do have close-in-age exceptions, aka “Romeo and Juliet” laws (what a horrible name…) that either allow or severely limit penalties for underage sex if the two people are close in age (like 2-3 years). So there’s that.

Nobby
9 years ago
Nobby
9 years ago

….. wrong thread >.<

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

I posted this in the last thread we talked about age of consent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America

That should clarify it if NWO doesn’t show up again, ignore it and move the thread 5 pages over before ppl get back to “wait it’s NOT 18 in most places” xD

there are also romeo and juliet laws in some places to cover a small age gap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape#Romeo_and_Juliet_laws

darksidecat
9 years ago

“Sex” with an 11 or 12 year old isn’t statutory rape, it is child rape.

@Ion, in states where there is a discrepancy in age of consent, it is in fact the girls that are covered by the lower age and the boys by the higher one.

Note on the fake ID thing, some regions do allow an affirmitive defense of reasonable mistake of age with a victim over twelve or thirteen. If you actually met a sixteen year old in an over 21 club, you might not be criminally liable if you reasonably believed the victim was over 21.

Nobby
9 years ago

Also on the fake ID thing, right or wrong this isn’t an exceptional clause. Speaking of a bar, if a bar lets in a minor with a fake ID and they’re caught, the fault lies with the bar. Or if a store sells a minor cigarettes, etc. So, good or bad, at least it’s consistent.

Holly Pervocracy
Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

How many under girls actually keep a fake ID on them just to fuck older guys?

I’m sure it’s happened, like, at some point in the history of humanity, but really now…

Holly Pervocracy
Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Underage.

Cripes I’m having a bad typing day.

Nobby
9 years ago

Holly, you’re forgetting the fact that women are all out to destroy men. As such, almost every American underage girl has fake ID, just so they can trap these sad, oppressed men.

dan
dan
9 years ago

Ion

Can you actually show us any recent – say, last 10 years – examples of 20-year olds who have gone to prison in the US for the sole “crime” of consensual sex with their 17-year-old boy or girl friend?

kristinmh
kristinmh
9 years ago

Yeah, I don’t think there are bands of predatory Lolitas roving the world.

It would make an awesome premise for a Mad Max-style post-apocalyptic movie, though.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

or a porn xD

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

How many under girls actually keep a fake ID on them just to fuck older guys?

Haven’t you heard? There is a critical shortage of horny teenage boys in the world today, which means all those horny teenage girls are just falling all over themselves to bang dudes old enough to be their dads. It’s tragic, I tell ya.

Sharculese
9 years ago

Can you actually show us any recent – say, last 10 years – examples of 20-year olds who have gone to prison in the US for the sole “crime” of consensual sex with their 17-year-old boy or girl friend?

I’m unfortunately blanking on the names right now, but here in Georgia, there was actually a case about seven or eight years ago where a high school student was prosecuted for having sex with his girlfriend. The jury got tricked into convicting on something that sounded less severe than statutory, but carried a minimum sentence of ten years. Thankfully, due to a lot of pressure, he was released.

Of course, it had nothing to do with punishing him for being a beta male seeking sex where he could get it; he was the star of his school’s football team. But he was black and she was white, and it was pretty clear that her father was pushing the case because he wasn’t okay with that.

It does happen. Probably not as often as Ion thinks, though.

Nobby
9 years ago

Mad Max: The XXX Parody. Coming soon to a porn store near you.

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

Mad Max: Beyond Thundercunt

dan
dan
9 years ago

Sharculese

Thanks

I’m guessing that you mean Marcus Dixon……Not quite Ion’s “scenario”, but it really is a struggle to find anything that comes even vaguely close to it.

Simone Lovelace
9 years ago

Okay, just going to put this out there.

I was sexually active as a teen. So were at least one of my high school best friends; several of my best friends in college; my best friend in grad school; and my partner.

Many of us were sexually active with people three or more years older.

I think underage sex in America is a bit like underage drinking. Yes, it would be ideal if no one did it, but people are going to do it. And it might well be safer and healthier if they could do it openly, with the knowledge and support of the trusted adults in their lives.

I’m not saying teenage sex should be completely unregulated. Certainly, sex with a 13 year old should be illegal. I’m also in favor of stringent laws against sex with a significant age gap, if the younger partner is a minor.

But telling 16-year-olds that they shouldn’t have sex is clearly not working.

Sharculese
9 years ago

’m guessing that you mean Marcus Dixon

Yes! That was it. Thanks.

Taryn
Taryn
9 years ago

As a 16 year-old girl, nothing creeps me out more than these men referring to girls of my age as “women”. Actually, scratch that, nothing creeps me out more than the comment about checking out 12 year-olds on the beach and saying they deserved it because of the bathing suits that they chose to wear. Are there really middle-aged men checking me out and thinking that I’m asking for it because I’m wearing a practical outfit for swimming? *shudder*

filetofswedishfish
9 years ago

The comment at 2:47 is full on admitting that it’s ok for men to go around flaunting their sexuality, and being sexual, and being “normal men”, but that women need to be hidden away to keep their sexuality in.

But then these guys complain they can’t get laid. headdesk.

filetofswedishfish
9 years ago

Also, i second the thought that telling 16 year olds not to have sex isn’t working. But the idea with statutory rape is that they can have sex. Just not with non-minors. Or rather, people in the age of majority can’t have sex with minors. Because the onus fully, and fairly, is on the person who is a legal adult. When i was 16, I was sleeping with a 20 year old dude. That should not have been. At all. I mean, I thought I loved him. But he was just manipulative, socially awkward, and uncomfortable dating anyone with an opinion of their own, and the courage to stand up for themselves. At 16, i was pretty much a doormat, and he took complete advantage of that.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

@FoSF:

“But then these guys complain they can’t get laid. headdesk.”

They complain because their model of how that’s all supposed to work is completely and utterly fucked. They basically want to be able to proposition any woman they want whenever they want and have the answer always be “yes”. When that doesn’t work in the real world, they see it as the fault of women because it’s easier than looking in the mirror for the problem.

Jodi
Jodi
9 years ago

My daughter had periods at 8 and breasts at 10. She was getting hit on every now and then by grown ups as early as 11 and pretty regularly by 14. She didn’t have a fake ID or dress like an adult, just like any other teenager.

By the time she was 15, she’d gotten to where she’d give those guys a piece of her mind in no uncertain terms, and anyone close by would know just how much of a creep he was.

Now that she actually is an adult at 27 and looks it (though just as lovely as ever), creeper guys don’t hit on her, which I find telling.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

I agree with Simone Lovelace on this one, ideally it should be an individual judgement based on individual people’s level of maturity and readiness, not something regulated by laws. If the act is consensual, the law shouldn’t be involved. It sounds like the government doesn’t trust young people to make decisions and is trying to ‘protect them from themselves’.

dan and Sharculese – why the hostile tone? it was a hypothetical scenario, which might happen with the laws set up the way they are and I don’t think it would be right, is all.

betoma
betoma
9 years ago

Dan, Sharculese, and others: The case this brought to mind for me was that of Genarlow Wilson. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v._State_of_Georgia) He was 17 & was arrested, tried, & sentenced to 10 years for getting a blowjob from a 15-year-old. His state has/had Romeo and Juliet laws that, ludicrously, didn’t apply to oral sex.

This suggests to me that there *are* problems with the age of consent laws. Sex between people who are similar in age shouldn’t be a criminal offense, and loopholes like the one in Georgia should be closed up. I also kinda feel like 18 is too old an age of consent. It could be argued that 16 and 17 year olds should have the right to have sex with a partner of their choice (even an older one), without fear of that person going to jail.. At that age, they might still be prone to poor judgment, but they have preferences and a sex drive of their own, and it’s their body to do what they want with. (Of course, a pairing between a 16-year-old and a guy in his 20’s or older is usually creepy as hell. Just not sure it should be a crime.)

But the commenters in that video have missed the point completely. You don’t get to decide that a girl is ready for sex, based on the fact that she has breasts and hips. It is really up to her. “That girl has probably had a period, so she’s implicitly consented to sex” is about the most objectifying thing you could say.

redlocker
9 years ago

Good god.

The thread and that video…it’s like a fucked up episode of The Twilight Zone.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

@betoma:

“But the commenters in that video have missed the point completely. You don’t get to decide that a girl is ready for sex, based on the fact that she has breasts and hips. It is really up to her. “That girl has probably had a period, so she’s implicitly consented to sex” is about the most objectifying thing you could say.”

All ties in with their entitlement mentality. It doesn’t matter what a woman wants. They want not just the final decision but the ONLY decision.

Sharculese
9 years ago

My daughter had periods at 8 and breasts at 10. She was getting hit on every now and then by grown ups as early as 11 and pretty regularly by 14. She didn’t have a fake ID or dress like an adult, just like any other teenager.

Reminds me of this really awesome girl I work with. She was completely developed by 14 and as a result got a ton of unwanted attention from older men. Her response was to start reading up on feminism. She’s 21 now and she looks and dresses like a Barbie doll, but she’s the most committed and articulate feminist I know and will give you hell for suggesting that the way she looks detracts from her ideas.

Sharculese
9 years ago

Dan, Sharculese, and others: The case this brought to mind for me was that of Genarlow Wilson. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v._State_of_Georgia) He was 17 & was arrested, tried, & sentenced to 10 years for getting a blowjob from a 15-year-old. His state has/had Romeo and Juliet laws that, ludicrously, didn’t apply to oral sex.

I know I said yes earlier, but I’m terrible with names and now that I read that summary it was definitely the wilson trial I was thinking of.To be clear though, the problem wasn’t that the romeo and juliet law didn’t apply to oral sex (GA’s R&J provision is- “If the victim is at least 14 but less than 16 years of age and the person convicted of statutory rape is 18 years of age or younger and is no more than four years older than the victim, such person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.”) The prosecution convinced the jury to convict on a child molestation charge that sounded less severe but carried a ten year prison sentence.

I was in high school when this happened, but my English teacher was a white woman dating a black man, so she took the case very seriously and kept us informed on how it was going.

betoma
betoma
9 years ago

“I know I said yes earlier, but I’m terrible with names and now that I read that summary it was definitely the wilson trial I was thinking of.” Fun fact: I couldn’t remember the name either, & found the case by doing a search on some combination of “oral sex trial underage romeo and juliet.” That I found the info I wanted, & not something horrifyingly unsavory, is little short of miraculous.

That Wikipedia page says that “at the time of his conviction, provisions for similarity in age that allowed underage consent to be taken into account were only applicable to vaginal sex. Because the case involved oral sex the consent of the girl was not at that time legally relevant.” It also mentions the deceptively harsh sentence.

Simone Lovelace
9 years ago

I had periods at 9 and breasts at 10. I had the good fortune not to be hit on much as a young’un. I’m not conventionally attractive, and I grew up in a pretty “safe” neighborhood, but mostly was just lucky. Still, the idea that someone could have viewed little ten-year-old me as a sex object is horrifying.

To be totally clear, I do think there should be age-of-consent laws; I just think they should be a lot more flexible. I would be okay with a system where–for example–a 14-15 year-old could have sex with anyone aged 14-16; a 16-year-old could have sex with anyone between the ages of 14 and 24; and an 18-year-old and up can have sex with anyone over the age of 16.

It’s not that I think a 16-year-old *should* bang a 24-year-old. In most cases, that would be a terrible, terrible idea. But I do think it’s very possible that such a relationship could be safe and consensual; and that in most cases, criminalizing this activity–and thus forcing it underground–might do more harm than good.

But that’s all based on personal experience. I would love, love, love to see some research about this.

Thomas
Thomas
9 years ago

In most European countries the age of consent is low (Spain 13, Germany 14, France 15). Still teenage pregnancies, new cases of STIs are rare compared to the US. I’m not sure about abuse, but I doubt it’s worse. I honestly don’t know any teenage girls, who hooked up with middle aged men. But yes, I’m sure it happens just not in my upper middle class circle.

You can’t regulate everything by law. The better way is healthy sex education and lax laws than abstinent only sex education and rigid laws. Most people I talked about it lost their virginity around 16, boys often a bit later, though legally everybody was allowed to fuck with 14.

Not to say that I agree with the weird posts in the video. I mean, legally I could date a 14 year old, but I rather spare myself the drama there’s enough drama with women my age. Beside, what should I talk about with a 14 year old? Twilight, Justin Bieber, her mean BFF, her upcoming geometry test, immature (male) classmates?

chocomintlipwax
9 years ago

When I was in high school I remember reading that while our age of consent was 16, you could legally get married (as a girl) at 14 with parental permission. When I was a senior I was taking a fluff class with a lot of underclassmen and there was one 15-year-old in my class who was married.

MARRIED. AT FIFTEEN.

So … this bugs me a bit. As a 15-year-old you can’t have sex with someone older than you but you can get married to them. Having sex is such a big, scary decision (well, at 15 it sorta is … the abundance of babies born to girls in my school is a testament to that), but getting married? No big thang. Go right ahead.

Seems to me that age of consent laws would work better if they just set a cap. I know that some states do this (four or five years older than the girl being an upper limit). It’s perfectly feasible that a girl would meet a guy as a freshman who was a senior and get into a relationship. Is it a great idea? No, probably not, but it’s definitely not an unrealistic situation.

That said … I know that when I was 19/20 I had a lot of older guys trying to make that Pantal Power Play with me. I was too secure and mature for it to work, but they tried anyway. I had several friends on whom it worked, and most cases wound up being a “Woo, Screw, Dump” situation (thankfully not woo, screw, dump, baby). Being 16 or 18 isn’t like magic and doesn’t make one prone to good decisions automatically, after all. Most 20-ish adults are still basically kids. I think the biggest problem with telling teens and young adults not to have sex is that we just assume they will Just Say No (right, we see how well that works) when the time comes, and that’s pretty naive. Teaching people how to deal with the ploys like, “I’ll dump you if you don’t,” or, “But I love you, and if you want to show me how much you love me too blah blah blah,” or, “Just the tip/But condoms feel stupid!” would be better. To make a driving analogy, instead of just telling them not to drive or to just wear their seatbelt, perhaps it’s better to teach them how to drive the fucking car, which includes sometimes not driving (drunk, tired, whatever), always wearing a seatbelt, and how to dodge angry badgers that run into the road.

Amnesia
Amnesia
9 years ago

I figured out the problem. The brains of these particular MRAs stopped developing at age thirteen.

Sharculese
9 years ago

That Wikipedia page says that “at the time of his conviction, provisions for similarity in age that allowed underage consent to be taken into account were only applicable to vaginal sex. Because the case involved oral sex the consent of the girl was not at that time legally relevant.”

Yeah, I didn’t read the wikipedia article, but now that you mention it, I can see the law was amended in 2006, but I don’t have westlaw access right now so I don’t know what the change was. I would totally believe it was as a result of the winslow trial.

Sharculese
9 years ago

You can’t regulate everything by law. The better way is healthy sex education and lax laws than abstinent only sex education and rigid laws.

I agree, but sadly, for most of America, decent sex ed is years and years, if not decades and decades, away…

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

Where the hell is NWOSub? All this talk about underage girls should’ve brought him running by now.

Plymouth
Plymouth
9 years ago

I think he’s boycotting. Aren’t all the trolls boycotting? It’s so peaceful!

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

I dunno, going on strike is such a Marxist thing to do; it seems out of character. Maybe the dudes in the white coats finally caught up with him.

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