So now it’s all about the “nice guys.” It’s not just that mean, mean Rebecca Watson slandered the good name of all men in the world by suggesting that one amongst their number had committed a somewhat creepy act in an elevator at 4 AM. Now some commenters are accusing her of something like a hate crime against the Nice Guys of the world.
According to cranky sometime-Men’s Rights blogger The Damned Olde Man, the woman he refers to only as “Rude Elevator Bitch” has publicly humiliated a man whose only crime was that he was a little bit shy. Embroidering liberally on the scant few facts we know about the case, Olde Man sets forth a brand new narrative of the incident — based largely on his own imagination –with the mysterious man at the center of the story now transformed into a sweet, awkward fellow he calls Nice Elevator Guy:
By all accounts, NEG appears to be a rather shy, somewhat unconfident nerd or geek who appears to be lacking in the social graces.
When Olde says “by all accounts” he actually means “by no accounts.” We have no idea what sort of personality this fellow has, only that he apparently propositioned Walker in an elevator in Dublin at 4 AM.
It was probably not a good idea to ask REB for coffee just after she finished a lecture on how she is offended by men who sexualize her, especially late at night in an isolated elevator. That would be her point of view which she and all of her supporters have stated quite eloquently. So if one only accounts for REB’s feelings, it was the wrong thing to do. But how about looking at the situation from NEG’s point of view?
That is, from the imaginary point of view of the imaginary character Olde has simply superimposed on a real man we know almost nothing about.
A shy, socially awkward nerd who lacks confidence is likely to feel uncomfortable in any situation where he intends to proposition a woman. But he is likely to be terrified of doing it in a public setting with plenty of people around to witness his humiliation when she turns him down. So from his point of view, an isolated elevator in the middle of the night is probably the ideal location, especially since he was probably never going to have this opportunity again.
Note to shy guys of the world: this is not a good idea. It’s not going to work out well for you.
I’m not quite sure if that’s necessary. I’m a shy guy, and I’m pretty sure most of us shy guys already know that propositioning a woman when the two of you are alone in an confined space is a bad idea. Many of us who sometimes feel awkward in social settings have what is known as “empathy” towards other people and thus are aware when something we do might just make someone else feel awkward. Olde Man continues:
His fear of humiliation is probably not as irrational as her fear of rape and in hindsight, it was definitely more justified. He didn’t rape her, she did reject him. She not only rejected him, she humiliated him, publically, for all the world to see.
Yeah. She “publicly” humiliated a guy she never named. According to a guy who has just written a long post in which he repeatedly refers to her — a blogger who posts under her real name — as a “bitch.”
It’s bad enough to read this bullshit in MRA blogs, where it’s irritating but hardly surprising.
It’s a bit more troubling to find much of this dumb argument repeated – in somewhat more polite language, admittedly – in Psychology Today. In a post entitled “What’s a Shy, Geeky, Nice Guy to Do?” cognitive psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman offers a very similar version of events, in which
a nervous, presumably geeky, socially awkward guy gets on [the elevator] ]with her … [his] heart probably beating fast and palms sweety as heck … .
“Presumably,” “probably” – in other words, these details are simply invented.
While Kaufman acknowledges that the mysterious (alleged) Nice Guy’s approach was “lame,” he, like Olde Man, turns the story into one in which Nice Guys are the real victims:
many entitled, narcissistic males have commented to the effect “what an ungrateful bitch, she should be grateful for being complimented!”, and quite a few feminists have commented “good for Rebecca for scolding men, they need to be put in their place!” All the while, shy, geeky, genuinely nice guys have sat there, reading these extreme comments, no doubt scratching their heads and wondering what in the world they are to do.
What is a shy, geeky, nice guy to do?
Then Kaufman gives some advice on how the Nice Elevator Guy could have handled the attempted pick-up better:
Don’t be creepy. Asking a girl to your hotel room in an elevator at 4 in the morning when the girl has already announced she is tired shows very poor mating intelligence. …
Well, yeah. He continues:
Look for indicators of interest. Any dating coach will tell you how important it is to look for signals of interest. Pay attention to her state. Does she look exhausted?
Generally speaking, when a woman gives a talk about how she hates being hit on at atheist conferences, then later announces that she’s tired and wants to go to bed, these are what you might call “Indicators of Leave Me the Fuck Alone.”
Kaufman goes on:
Does she cringe when you start talking? That’s probably not the right time to put your arm around her.
Can’t argue with that one, really. Cringing: never a good sign.
Kaufman barrels ahead with this mixture of the obvious and the creepy:
Build some sort of rapport first. The guy in the elevator was a complete stranger. There was zero connection. What could the guy have done to increase his chances of receptivity in this particular situation, when she clearly was not in the mood? It’s hard to imagine he could have done anything, but at the very least he could have tried to make some sort of connection.
Or, here’s a radical notion: he could have just LEFT HER ALONE. This one tired lady in the elevator is not the only lady in the world. There will be other chances. Stand down, dude.
But Kaufman, who can’t leave well enough alone himself, goes on to imagine a scenario in which Nice Elevator Guy manages to charm Watson utterly.
RUPERT: Oh, hi Rebecca! I’m a huge fan of yours. I really liked your ideas earlier about skepticism…feminism…blah…blah…And I totally hear you about the guys here. They really are creepy, aren’t they? [Insert witty joke here about how if you were a female at this conference you’d become a lifelong skeptic of geeky men]
WATSON: [Laughs] Yea, thanks for understanding. You were really listening to what I said earlier. What do you research?
Ungghhhh. Excuse me, but I have to go lie down for a moment. The stupid here is too much.
After a bit more of this imagined witty banter, the charmed WATSON is inviting HIM to HER room!
It was at this point that I discovered that there was another whole page worth of this shit. I couldn’t bring myself to read it.
“You know what’s gonna happen right? xD In X amount of days, Ion will return… if nobody’s commented much he’ll say “HAH I’M RIGHT YOU NEED US!” and if we comment a lot he’ll be like “EVEN WITHOUT TROLLS YOU JUST CIRCLE JERK, LOSERS WITH NO LIVES” xD”
I bet one internet that he’ll be back in less than 24 hours. Hopefully he’ll prove me wrong. XD XD
There’s a new part to the story up? Cool!
*scurries off to read*
Who drinks hotel room coffee? That stuff’s nasty.
Snow: yes, I was playing Poe because “I believe that male privilege is a wrong doctrine to embrace and here is why” would simply be met with “You’re a privilege denier!”
Instead of taking the issue head on, I hoped to illustrate the kafka-trappingness of the whole privilege argument by stating the argument in full whenever I could reasonably do so.
After all, in my experience, whenever there is an ideological conflict, the flank is protected by glossing over or minimizing the more contentious arguments and focusing on what sounds best. I was trying to expose the flank by placing emphasis on the fact that anyone who denies male privilege for any reason is a privilege denier and therefore considered to be wrong and therefore part of the problem of females being oppressed.
In fact, when thinking about what you have said about women being afraid of being seen as bitchy, well, is there any argument I could give to refute it without it being brushed away with “females uniquely suffer from it rather than it being an equal worry for both genders?”
A nerd was in an elevator with a drunk chick at 4 in the morning and decided to see how slutty she was.
lol
Hey didn’t Ion declare a troll strike?
ew…. that would make EWME a scab.
EWME is also a strikebreaker now! So, in light of that, is the epic strike over?
What the trolls aren’t really unionizing?! Sad day.
Just got done looking through some of this Rebecca Watson’s photos on Flickr.
(atrocious photography btw)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skepchick/3694094706/
The love feminists have for better looking women is just overwhelming.
‘Cause feminists are just SOOOO against misogyny!
It took two posts for evil emp to make his standard “feminists are ugly blar har har” post. Who had two posts in the pool?
Chortle:
http://i.imgur.com/XZe4m.jpg
That guy looks like an utter beta.
@Mtthw & Sally Strange
THANK YOU, for pointing this out!
This one of the most infuriating things to me about the guys defending/identifying with the elevator guy. I’m very shy by nature, to the point of sometimes having quite a bit of social anxiety, and I can’t imagine how cold hitting on a (married!) person who just spent several hours talking about not wanting to be hit on is the act of a nervous introvert.
Hey, what if the hypothetical WOMAN in the situation is is shy? Part of the reason I hate having random, strange men hit on me in public*** is the awkwardness of figuring out how to get myself out of the situation and the anxiety caused by being forced to talk to people when I am unprepared to do so. You’d think it be easier for them to identify with the person being imposed on than the person doing the imposing.
@caseymordred
If that’s the way you’ve chosen to argue, okay. People generally prefer if you’re straightforward about your views, though. Makes debate more fun.
Please call me summer_snow, by the way. There’s a snowy on these boards already, so it will get confusing if you shorten my name.
“In fact, when thinking about what you have said about women being afraid of being seen as bitchy, well, is there any argument I could give to refute it without it being brushed away with “females uniquely suffer from it rather than it being an equal worry for both genders?””
Just a nitpick here: men are rarely referred to as bitchy. But if you’re making a point about how both genders worry about being seen as abrasive, sure, that’s true. However, women do have a bit more social stigma against being loud and opinionated than men. While both women and men can be abrasive, abrasive behavior isn’t tolerated as much from women, and women often get called bitches when they do it.
Nobody’s making a claim about their suffering being unique and the worst thing ever; feminists are just making the point that on average, it does happen more to women than to men, and if you’re looking for a perfectly equal representation of people’s voices, you might have to make an effort to give women the space to talk.
If you’re happy with the status quo of women feeling slightly more inhibited than men and being a bit more likely to not offer plain refusals to things for fear of being rude on average, or you don’t believe that is actually the case, then you don’t have to do anything at all. This is advice for people who want women to feel free saying what they really feel more often.
Of course, this board skews more towards women, and we’re all pretty loud and opinionated too. As long as you’re not calling anyone bad names, we’re all likely to give you our honest opinions. Actually, we’re equally likely to give you our honest opinions if you do call us names; you’re just not going to like those opinions as much. 😀
EWME, we live in uncertain times… if I had to choose between Jenny McCarthy and Rebecca Watson, I’d definitely pick the one with the jetpack.
Now up at the Johnny Pez blog, part whatever of my continuing Ami card fanfic: The Wreck of the Scott Adams”, featuring special guest stars Ithiliana the Immortal and Sarah the Second Sin.
Hey! Don’t flounce out of here before you defend you view of The Art of War! I will admit bias because of my background, but the thoughts and strategies in there are amazingly timeless. I was doing a breakdown on Bush’s war in Iraq and how it failed to follow even the most basic tenets.
summer_snow: interesting. Do you feel as though your voice is obscured by other men?
@caseymordred
Other men? Could you expand on that a bit? I don’t know whether you’re assuming I’m a man, or saying something about mostly-male environments. Please clarify what you mean, and I’ll be happy to reply.
I simply meant men, I just said ‘other men’ for whatever reason it suited me to at the time.
T4T: What, are we to have no passive-aggressive bullshit for a whole week? Oh, noes!!
*uncontrollable sobbing*
Ah, okay. I’m not sure I would describe it as my voice being obscured, but if you’re curious, here’s how I understand the dynamic.
In my personal life, I’m a bit slower to bring up subjects such as, say, feeling uneasy being hit on in an elevator at 4 in the morning, around men than around women. Many women have a similar set of experiences with being hit on, and some experiences of gender dynamics in common with me, so I feel that I will be more readily understood by women when discussing things from my gendered point of view.
Since our society does lean towards accepting the male perspective on things as the default, I do find it a bit harder to be understood by many men when I talk about experiences such as getting hit on from my point of view as a woman. Sometimes it takes a lot more backstory and explanation to get my point across, and sometimes men will question my experiences, feel offended or hurt, strongly disagree about my interpretation, or call me a paranoid man-hating bitch. Since more men than women in my experience have reacted badly to such conversations, I am a bit more wary about men caling me a bitch than women, and thus less likely to strongly state opinions in such conversations with men. Which goes back to your original point about how “women are often afraid to be rude or say no.”
Does this make sense to you? Can you understand how we see this as relevant to the elevator scenario?
Sure. And perhaps I can help explain why some men might feel put out by your concerns, valid though they are.
When men hear “sexualization,” they interpret it as “don’t find me attractive at all, or if you have to find me attractive, never say it.”
I will not accuse you of feeling that way, but the comments on some less open minded boards that a man might come across, I won’t name names but ones that are far less forgiving of “mansplaining” than here, tend to also favor expressions of unrestrained female fear and misgiving towards the male gender as a whole.
Now, a man might take that to heart, and read it into more valid concerns.
So for some, the issue is not the elevator proposition, but the other commentary about feeling “sexualized.”
Also, when men hear “creepy,” they interpret it as “potential rapist.” After all, “creepy” implies inappropriate, as in “inappropriate conduct towards a woman.”
I won’t be so bold as to say that is what the word is intended to signify, but again, at those boards I mentioned, there is very little to disabuse me of that interpretation.
And thus you have men who are hypercritical of any woman “whining” or “being paranoid,” because they feel that their own, valid, biological urges are under attack, when all you are really asking is that they handle it with the same responsibility as one handles other biological urges, such as urination.
To be generous, I’m going to say it’s all a failure to communicate, on both sides.
I’m glad we’re having this discussion so we can get on the same page. Let’s talk about the word ‘creepy.’ It seems to be a real hot button, and one that men often react to very angrily.
You say “when men hear “creepy,” they interpret it as “potential rapist.” After all, “creepy” implies inappropriate, as in “inappropriate conduct towards a woman.”” Do you agree with this interpretation? Is the word being used on these threads in the way you would use it?
“I won’t be so bold as to say that is what the word is intended to signify”
Please tell me what you think the word ‘creepy’ a) is intended/used to mean on sites like Shakesville that you’ve alluded to, b) is intended/used to mean by most men, and c) means to you.
Actually, I do think it means “potential rapist” on all three counts, except perhaps on b, when most men might have non-sexual connotations for the word.
When I said “I won’t be so bold as to say,” what I meant was that I was going to reserve judgement until you offered your explanation, rather than strongly insist on my own definition.