So now it’s all about the “nice guys.” It’s not just that mean, mean Rebecca Watson slandered the good name of all men in the world by suggesting that one amongst their number had committed a somewhat creepy act in an elevator at 4 AM. Now some commenters are accusing her of something like a hate crime against the Nice Guys of the world.
According to cranky sometime-Men’s Rights blogger The Damned Olde Man, the woman he refers to only as “Rude Elevator Bitch” has publicly humiliated a man whose only crime was that he was a little bit shy. Embroidering liberally on the scant few facts we know about the case, Olde Man sets forth a brand new narrative of the incident — based largely on his own imagination –with the mysterious man at the center of the story now transformed into a sweet, awkward fellow he calls Nice Elevator Guy:
By all accounts, NEG appears to be a rather shy, somewhat unconfident nerd or geek who appears to be lacking in the social graces.
When Olde says “by all accounts” he actually means “by no accounts.” We have no idea what sort of personality this fellow has, only that he apparently propositioned Walker in an elevator in Dublin at 4 AM.
It was probably not a good idea to ask REB for coffee just after she finished a lecture on how she is offended by men who sexualize her, especially late at night in an isolated elevator. That would be her point of view which she and all of her supporters have stated quite eloquently. So if one only accounts for REB’s feelings, it was the wrong thing to do. But how about looking at the situation from NEG’s point of view?
That is, from the imaginary point of view of the imaginary character Olde has simply superimposed on a real man we know almost nothing about.
A shy, socially awkward nerd who lacks confidence is likely to feel uncomfortable in any situation where he intends to proposition a woman. But he is likely to be terrified of doing it in a public setting with plenty of people around to witness his humiliation when she turns him down. So from his point of view, an isolated elevator in the middle of the night is probably the ideal location, especially since he was probably never going to have this opportunity again.
Note to shy guys of the world: this is not a good idea. It’s not going to work out well for you.
I’m not quite sure if that’s necessary. I’m a shy guy, and I’m pretty sure most of us shy guys already know that propositioning a woman when the two of you are alone in an confined space is a bad idea. Many of us who sometimes feel awkward in social settings have what is known as “empathy” towards other people and thus are aware when something we do might just make someone else feel awkward. Olde Man continues:
His fear of humiliation is probably not as irrational as her fear of rape and in hindsight, it was definitely more justified. He didn’t rape her, she did reject him. She not only rejected him, she humiliated him, publically, for all the world to see.
Yeah. She “publicly” humiliated a guy she never named. According to a guy who has just written a long post in which he repeatedly refers to her — a blogger who posts under her real name — as a “bitch.”
It’s bad enough to read this bullshit in MRA blogs, where it’s irritating but hardly surprising.
It’s a bit more troubling to find much of this dumb argument repeated – in somewhat more polite language, admittedly – in Psychology Today. In a post entitled “What’s a Shy, Geeky, Nice Guy to Do?” cognitive psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman offers a very similar version of events, in which
a nervous, presumably geeky, socially awkward guy gets on [the elevator] ]with her … [his] heart probably beating fast and palms sweety as heck … .
“Presumably,” “probably” – in other words, these details are simply invented.
While Kaufman acknowledges that the mysterious (alleged) Nice Guy’s approach was “lame,” he, like Olde Man, turns the story into one in which Nice Guys are the real victims:
many entitled, narcissistic males have commented to the effect “what an ungrateful bitch, she should be grateful for being complimented!”, and quite a few feminists have commented “good for Rebecca for scolding men, they need to be put in their place!” All the while, shy, geeky, genuinely nice guys have sat there, reading these extreme comments, no doubt scratching their heads and wondering what in the world they are to do.
What is a shy, geeky, nice guy to do?
Then Kaufman gives some advice on how the Nice Elevator Guy could have handled the attempted pick-up better:
Don’t be creepy. Asking a girl to your hotel room in an elevator at 4 in the morning when the girl has already announced she is tired shows very poor mating intelligence. …
Well, yeah. He continues:
Look for indicators of interest. Any dating coach will tell you how important it is to look for signals of interest. Pay attention to her state. Does she look exhausted?
Generally speaking, when a woman gives a talk about how she hates being hit on at atheist conferences, then later announces that she’s tired and wants to go to bed, these are what you might call “Indicators of Leave Me the Fuck Alone.”
Kaufman goes on:
Does she cringe when you start talking? That’s probably not the right time to put your arm around her.
Can’t argue with that one, really. Cringing: never a good sign.
Kaufman barrels ahead with this mixture of the obvious and the creepy:
Build some sort of rapport first. The guy in the elevator was a complete stranger. There was zero connection. What could the guy have done to increase his chances of receptivity in this particular situation, when she clearly was not in the mood? It’s hard to imagine he could have done anything, but at the very least he could have tried to make some sort of connection.
Or, here’s a radical notion: he could have just LEFT HER ALONE. This one tired lady in the elevator is not the only lady in the world. There will be other chances. Stand down, dude.
But Kaufman, who can’t leave well enough alone himself, goes on to imagine a scenario in which Nice Elevator Guy manages to charm Watson utterly.
RUPERT: Oh, hi Rebecca! I’m a huge fan of yours. I really liked your ideas earlier about skepticism…feminism…blah…blah…And I totally hear you about the guys here. They really are creepy, aren’t they? [Insert witty joke here about how if you were a female at this conference you’d become a lifelong skeptic of geeky men]
WATSON: [Laughs] Yea, thanks for understanding. You were really listening to what I said earlier. What do you research?
Ungghhhh. Excuse me, but I have to go lie down for a moment. The stupid here is too much.
After a bit more of this imagined witty banter, the charmed WATSON is inviting HIM to HER room!
It was at this point that I discovered that there was another whole page worth of this shit. I couldn’t bring myself to read it.
Which is completely different from the made-up narrative popular in feminist circles whereby Elevator Guy was a vicious stalker, misogynist and probable rapist, I’ll give it that.
I have figured out your problem here, David! You were reading Psychology Today! The piece of shit “publication” is filled with pseudo-science and, as far as I can tell has no redeeming qualities.
Ion, what happened to your icy disdain, and telling us that we were a bunch of nerds with no life and you had better things to do?
ALSO ALSO I know this has been explained to you before, but I will try one more time. Elevator Guy is not being accused of being a “vicious stalker, misogynist and probable rapist” by anyone here on MBZ. Watson thought he was a little creepy. That’s all. THAT IS ALL.
I wasn’t there so I have no idea what he was really like. Based on her description a little creepy seems fair.
Tis very strange how us being “different” be it “liberal”, “sceptic” or “atheist” – somehow makes us a “good guy” who is entitled to “the goodies” and to be off the hook from criticism?
It reminds me of how many moons ago the leftist men were oh, so confused when the radical women didn’t defer on leadership and sticking to making the coffee.
We’re oh, so pious when it comes to criticizing the Republican dimwits in their “sex scandals” but somehow miss the point at home. What is sicker than the behaviors themselves is the apologies for the behavior by Men.
Is it any wonder why Women oft times wonder whether we “get it” in so many ways? Obviously, many, if not most of us don’t
Ion, the first people to insinuate that Watson believed the man’s intentions to be completely nefarious were, in fact, the same type of people now going to great lengths to invent a personality for, and “his-side” version of this story.
The feminist blogosphere responded directly, if aggressively, to the Dawkins’ and others initial and complete over reaction. Re-write history all you like.
Out of curiosity, how would you be responding now if she had gone back to his room, and he had turned out to be one or more of those things?
Ion, what happened to your icy disdain, and telling us that we were a bunch of nerds with no life and you had better things to do?
Right now I don’t have anything better to do…
ALSO ALSO I know this has been explained to you before, but I will try one more time. Elevator Guy is not being accused of being a “vicious stalker, misogynist and probable rapist” by anyone here on MBZ. Watson thought he was a little creepy. That’s all. THAT IS ALL.
Are you kidding? Look at the comments in the original thread. All of you were pretty much in agreement that this guy stalked her all night without making contact, deliberately waited for her to leave and get in the elevator, followed her inside, and began putting the moves on her. Not to mention the strong implication that she might’ve been raped if she accepted the invitation. Which is why I find it so ironic that Dave would write a sarcastic, dismissive post about someone who simply assumes Elevator Guy had good intentions, instead of assuming (like all of you) that he had the worst intentions.
“Or, here’s a radical notion: he could have just LEFT HER ALONE.”
Agreed. She is butt-ugly.
Rebecca Watson didn’t speculate on the guy’s intentions. She spoke directly about his actions and how they made her feel and why. The more aggressive responses about this man’s behavior didn’t start until Dawkins and several other men completely over reacted and made a great big deal out of her anecdote.
For what it’s worth, I don’t know whether or not this guy stalked her all night; it’s doubtful. I don’t know whether or not he was attempting to make a romantic connection with her when he asked her back to his room; it’s likely.
But whether or not he was solely interested in a further discussion of the ideas she’d discussed earlier (jury’s out) or trying to see if she was up for a little sexy fun time – his approach was a great big woof. Watson chose to relay the anecdote as a teachable moment for why her particular interest and group, atheists, don’t have the level of female participants that it might be able to if this kind of thing didn’t happen.
I’m approaching this from a different perspective. If you want to hit on a woman, and care about whether or not your successful, try not to make her uncomfortable. Seems to me that this is good advice for socially awkward, shy men, terrified of the very prospect of being humiliated by a woman’s rejection.
I’m glad to see your reading comprehension is improving. Now if you would just try those critical reasoning skills…
Ah, so much for reading comprehension. I guess we’ll just have to go back to The Very Hungry Caterpillar so you can keep up.
I did look at the comments. What people are saying is that he listened to her talks, where she talked about not liking being hit on, and then he hit on. Therefore he should have known better. And that is a little creepy.
And the reason that is a little creepy is because some people are rapists. We don’t know if he was one. In fact, he probably wasn’t. But this is a danger. A real one that women need to be aware of! Therefore, he was a little creepy.
Do you understand? Or are you going to accuse me of calling him a rapist?
No one cares what your dick thinks.
Ah, so much for reading comprehension. I guess we’ll just have to go back to The Very Hungry Caterpillar so you can keep up.
Ah, the ambiguous snide insult with no backup. The weapon of choice for a bully who wants to ‘get in on the action’ but can’t think of anything pertinent to say. Keep trying, maybe something’ll come.
I did look at the comments. What people are saying is that he listened to her talks, where she talked about not liking being hit on, and then he hit on. Therefore he should have known better. And that is a little creepy.
If that’s all you saw, then you didn’t read the comments. I’m not gonna start quote-mining a 1600-comment page for you, you’ll only see what you want to see anyway.
I don’t see what’s so wrong about Kaufman’s hypothetical conversation. Rapport building is a tested and effective social strategy, and it probably would play out that way.
Personally, I’ve always been of the opinion that the best dating coach is Gavin de Becker. That one book he wrote taught me several effective strategies for getting sex from women. I recommend all shy nerdy nice guys to check him out.
Why is sex the only thing one wants from another person? Is your life so full that having another person in it for more then 10 minutes is a terrible thing?
You know, back in ’05 I read one of the earlier editions of How to Succeed with Women out of curiosity. It was my first exposure to the whole PUA thing and I remember being really surprised by a few thing: (and in no particular order)
1. How much of the information they were imparting seemed really basic and like common sense; i.e. wear clean clothes, get and maintain a decent hair cut, keep toilet paper in your apartment, don’t be a slob. I remember being genuinely amazed that any men actually interested in sex and dating had to pay money to learn this.
2. Don’t continue to pursue a woman who stands you up more than once or won’t return your phone calls. I remember thinking “Really? There are women who stand men up routinely? And men who continue to pursue them? Who accepts a date just to stand a guy up?” It had, honestly, never even occurred to me that anyone -man or woman- behaved that way. I did not, however, doubt the sincerity of the advice because I figured that they wouldn’t have included it, if their paying audience didn’t regard this as a genuine problem.
and
3. How much one the first few chapters was devoted to advice on how to make women feel comfortable so that they’ll be more receptive to advances. I wish so many of my books weren’t currently in storage because my memory is not quite photographic and I would love to type in some of the exact language. But, seriously, it read almost exactly like that list NWO posted in the old “Elevator Thread” as a prime example of women’s “demands” and “oppression” or what ever nonsense he was prattling on about that day. I mean, even down to stuff like paying attention to surroundings and everything.
Are you people upset because Watson is a woman who suggested that it isn’t a great idea to ask a strange woman back to your hotel room at 4 o’clock in the morning? What if a pick up artist gave the same advice?
When I described this whole ridiculous kerfluffle to my husband, I thought he’d be at least somewhat sympathetic to Elevator Guy, being a shy and formerly awkward guy himself. But his immediate response was, “Of course you don’t follow a woman into an elevator at four in the morning! If he couldn’t manage to talk to her the whole time she was at the bar, he should have accepted that he missed his chance.”
Which is almost exactly what PZ Myers said in his initial post on the subject (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/the_decent_human_beings_guide.php).
I also love this part of Myers’ post, by the way:
What about tactics? I know all the games entitled young men, in particular, play. If you are deploying wingmen, if you are approaching this as you would a gazelle hunt, where the goal is to isolate a target from the herd and make them vulnerable so they will succumb to you, where getting the target stupefyingly drunk is a desirable means to an end, then you might get laid — I don’t deny that those tactics works for unscrupulous people — but you will have forfeited the title of Decent Human Being, and we’d rather you didn’t come to our meetings. Also, atheist women tend to be assertive and not at all bashful about telling everyone else about your behavior, and you’ll find yourself discussed on youtube and on blogs and perhaps even from the podium at the meeting. Then you’ll feel compelled to comment anonymously on those blogs, complaining about ball-busting man-haters, and you’ll be forever receding from that desirable status as Decent Human Being.
You don’t get to whine about being called out. It’s what we do. Join a cult if you’d rather have rules of silence and obedience.
Ion: No one said he “stalked her all night”. We said he spent time in her company and failed to pay attention to what she was saying.
Some did infer he chose to go when she did, and took advantage of the opportunity to chat her up.
Why? Because that’s the only evidence we have.
People have made rhetorical comments to the effect that, had she gone to his room and been assaulted, the popular reaction would have had a lot of, “what did she expect”.
But you don’t want to see that. You would rather see a narrative where all the nasty feminists are against men showing any interest.
Or, to sum up:
IonWhich is completely different from the made-up narrative popular in feminist circles whereby Elevator Guy was a vicious stalker, misogynist and probable rapist, I’ll give it that.
[citation needed]
IonIf that’s all you saw, then you didn’t read the comments. I’m not gonna start quote-mining a 1600-comment page for you, you’ll only see what you want to see anyway.
Ah… the common retort of the person challenged to provide sources, “The truth is all over the place, and I shared it with you, but I can’t be bothered to actually show it to you.”
Then again, perhaps there is more truth in your comment than first appears, “you’ll only see what you want to see anyway.
Are you kidding? Look at the comments in the original thread. All of you were pretty much in agreement that this guy stalked her all night without making contact, deliberately waited for her to leave and get in the elevator, followed her inside, and began putting the moves on her. Not to mention the strong implication that she might’ve been raped if she accepted the invitation.
ALL?
o_O
You can’t just quote mine a couple, you’d have to quote mine from every single person who contributed to it (btw, you and I were both right, Casey Mordred was a poe xD and before you say “you?” I said it too xD so *high five!* ) to prove “all” :
Can we cut back on the rhetoric about that? You can say some? :] I know some ppl did start talking about that, I also know that you said she practically accused him of attempted rape, so I think during the argument lots of things got heated. :] Me and Plymouth both said we dun think rape has nething to do w/ it… xD
So… Kaufman basically wrote a fanfic about the incident? That’s just gross… and creepy. Really creepy.
Wow, the irony here is actually hurting my eyes.
That aside, Ion, you are so full of shit that we waste our time every time we engage in attempts at conversation with you. At no point in the original thread were we all “pretty much in agreement” over assigning attributes to Elevator Guy beyond he did the one creepy thing, making a move in an elevator at 4am to a lone woman who already made it clear that she wasn’t interested in anyone making moves on her and that she was tired and going to bed.
There was a lot of agreeing that we don’t know what his intentions were and that is so very often cause for concern, but that is NOT saying that he was stalking her and deliberately waiting for her to be alone.
Arks, are you saying you use the stalking techniques described in “The Gift Of Fear” such as boundary-testing?
All of you were pretty much in agreement that this guy stalked her all night without making contact,
That is a lie.
I remember what I said – I, myself, speaking for me, said that I wouldn’t find the proposition overly creepy. But Watson did, and that’s her right.
Let me try it from another angle. Dude has just been listening to her talk about not wanting to get hit on at conventions. Dude then proceeds to hit on her. It’s not *just* social cluelessness or hope springing eternal – he consciously ignored one of her very clearly stated boundaries. If he’s doing that right out of the gate, what else might Watson expect? ‘Oh, no, baby, just the tip!’ ‘My penis winded up in your ass totally by accident!’ He obviously doesn’t respect her or her boundaries, because if he did, all he’d say was ‘I enjoyed your talk, thank you,” and keep his lust for her to himself. But he didn’t.
The guy was probably not a rapist. There is no way to prove it one way or the other based on the evidence we have.
But he was a guy who doesn’t care much for Watson’s boundaries. That has been proven by the way he behaved. And why would anyone, male or female, care to date or even have a casual encounter with someone who does not respect their boundaries?
His fear of humiliation is probably not as irrational as her fear of rape and in hindsight, it was definitely more justified. He didn’t rape her, she did reject him. She not only rejected him, she humiliated him, publically, for all the world to see.
Well… there is truth in here, and nonsense; they cohabit the same sentences.
Is a fear of rejection reasonable? Yes. Most of us get rejected (in one way or another) more than we get accepted (in the realm of chatting people up). But that’s a false equivalence.
Being rejected is not the same as being raped. I’ve not been left turned into while riding a motorcycle. I have had that very thing happen to me three times in a car. I’ve almost had it happen on a motorcycle (and the driver came back to yell at me while I was picking up the bike I dumped; it was damned unpleasant, and turned something which I didn’t like, into me being both pissed off, and a bit scared. I had no idea why the car went a block, stopped, and came back to have someone erupt from it blaming me for not trusting they wouldn’t hit me).
Does that make my fear of being hit by 2,000+ lbs of moving metal “irrational”? It’s never happened.
No, it makes doesn’t. It may be I worry about it too much. I don’t think so. Then again, should it happen, it’s going to be really ugly (the SUV that blew through a red light at 40 [or so] mph when I was trying to make a left… that would have been bad; fatal, actually. But I was being paranoid, for lack of long range visibilty. Had I been more aggressive, I’d be dead).
The problem is, women (the primary target of rapes) have no way to know the intention of the person approaching them.
The guy in the elevator, he had lots of time to assess that elevators are not the best locale. If he can’t figure that out, well his’ fear of rejection is much more likely to be realised, than mine of being hit by a car.