Here, found on Men’s Rights Reddit, is a “demotivational” poster that illustrates just why Rebecca Watson’s comments about that now-famous elevator incident, and the ensuing discussions that erupted amongst feminists online (and here, in our longest thread ever), were actually, you know, necessary: whoever made this evidently thinks that the very notion that a RAPIST would ask someone out for coffee first is so inherently and self-evidently hilarious that you don’t even have to explain why it’s so hilarious.
Never mind that, er, rapists often DO invite their future victims out for coffee, to the movies, out for a kebab, etc, etc first. Never mind that if some hypothetical woman had accepted a 4 AM “coffee in my room” invite and been raped, many of the very same guys now ranting about how she’s calling all men rapists would be blaming her for being a “slut” who “was asking for it” by agreeing to said “coffee” date.
(And I’ll just note that Watson did not in fact accuse her admirer in the elevator of being a rapist or even a creep; she simply mentioned that propositioning someone in an elevator at 4 AM is a creepy thing to do.)
And yes, that is Richard Dawkins in the picture. I’m not sure why someone who presumably agrees with what Dawkins said about the case would want to feature him in a poster next to the word “rapists,” but what do I know? In any case, Dawkins is now being hailed as a hero by more than a few of the regulars in the Men’s Rights subreddit — not for his scientific work, or his science writings, or even his atheist activism, but for his douchebaggery towards Watson. The Flying Spaghetti Monster works in mysterious ways, I guess.
Speaking of which — the mysterious ways thing, I mean — can anyone explain the logic behind this comment to me?
Specifically, could you explain the bit about “smack[ing] the shit out of” feminists who’ve stood up for Rebecca Watson? It seems to me that if you’re trying to make the point that Watson and her supporters are reacting hysterically to an innocent invitation to coffee, and that women have no reason to be fearful or concerned or even just mildly creeped out by men propositioning them in elevators at 4 am, it does not exactly help your case to talk about doing physical harm to feminists (or children, for that matter). Doesn’t that suggest, rather, that women should be concerned about strange men in elevators — because of the off chance that one of these strange men could turn out to be, you know, the sort of dude who posts shit like that on the internet?
Amused said:
I think this is a point that bears repeating. A lot of guys react very very badly to being rejected. I thought it was pretty telling that Ion talked about “rejection/humiliation” earlier, almost as though they were the same thing, that any rejection is automatically humiliation. That’s certainly the way a non-negligible portion of guys see it. (And some proportion of women too, I imagine.)
Pecunium, I think you’re right; Ion is more interested in “spouting off” than providing any real sort of argument. And in that case, winning is irrelevant.
I kept up with the other thread about this, even though I stopped participating after the whole “USian” thing. I’ve read some of the other posts that have been sited. And what I cannot for the life of me understand is what any man who is really, truly interested in approaching women in an attempt to chat them up is complaining about?
Plymouth pointed it out early in the other thread but it bears repeating: Watson gave good advice. This blog mocks misogyny thus the issues of privilege and judgment and potential sexual assault are, naturally, going to be prominent in the discussion.
I believe I have a pretty good grasp of those issues. I even concur that the persistent defense of this man’s behavior, in the face of reasonable objections, elevates the whole thing from mere sexism to outright misogyny worthy of mocking.
But, I have to say, the whole thing seems so silly to me because when you set everything else aside, Rebecca Watson gave very good advice. Approaching a woman in an elevator at 4 o’clock in the morning and inviting her back to your hotel room is almost always going to produce failure for any man actually interested in getting to know that particular woman better and, possibly, seeing her naked.
What exactly are Ion and all the other men who are so worked up with this upset about? What are they defending? The right to strike out with women?
I’m confused.
@Nobinayamu:
“What exactly are Ion and all the other men who are so worked up with this upset about? What are they defending? The right to strike out with women?”
The right to ask anything of or say anything to any woman they want at any time they please, no matter how intrusive/upsetting/insulting/presumptuous it may be, plus the right to get the result of their choice no matter how the woman feels about it.
Well, that would at least make some sense.
I would add while not letting her express how she feels about it.
“The right to ask anything of or say anything to any woman they want at any time they please, no matter how intrusive/upsetting/insulting/presumptuous it may be, plus the right to get the result of their choice no matter how the woman feels about it.”
Because she should be HONORED by the ATTENTION because it’s a COMPLIMENT! Anyone who can’t understand this is a stupid stuck-up princess anyway.
And if talking to women is sooooooooooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard, I do have to wonder how these guys handle job-hunting. I can just hear them saying “But I had to do all the work in approaching you in the first place! You OWE me a job! You’re a big meany poopyhead!”
I’m confused as to why they’d even WANT to approach women anyway, since we’re dumb parasites and use people for emotional–gag–tampons. Besides, aren’t we all FAT-FAT-FATTIES?
vacuumslayer: All of those reasons are why rejecting them is so humiliating. If someone so worthless as that won’t agree to fuck them, they must really be worthless.
I wish I thought that was more silly and ridiculous than I do, but I really do think a fair number of MRAs/PUAs actually have so thoroughly accepted the idea of women as worthless that they take rejection as a comparison, and what they are comparing it to is appalling, so they get angry.
Pecunium –
Perhaps I can sum up:
Attractiveness is a totally objective linear scale. People will accept offers from people higher on the scale than themselves. People will reject offers from people lower on the scale than themselves. People will MAKE offers to those lower on the scale than themselves only to assure success. People will ACCEPT offers from those lower on the scale than themselves only because they are somehow pathetic or desperate.
Did I miss something? This “logic” is making my brain hurt.
Ion — Would I be worried if a guy approached me in a bad neighborhood to ask for a light? Probably not. If it was a bad neighborhood in the wee hours of the morning, and he followed me into a confined space where I couldn’t easily get away before making his request? You bet I’d be worried. That’s how my husband got mugged.
Women are shamed for being raped, and they are shamed for being less than nice to creepy guys who might or might not be rapists. You have left us with no alternative but to piss you off.
Personally, at 4 am, I’d wait for the next elevator. But now you’re going to cry that I automatically think all men are rapists.
No, but it proves at least one thing:
1) Meeting a man alone in the elevator at 4 am is a creepy situation in itself
2) You can’t complain that men use elevators at 4 am
So even if you’re perfectly justified to find situations creepy you have no right to demand a change of other peoples behavior, you have to suck it up.
We all will experience (male or female) many creepy situations in our life, like meeting a group of drunks in the night, weird people with Russian accents asking you to change money, a junkie begging you for a Dollar, being alone with loud youths in the train, a dog owner with Staffie barking at you and pulling the leash etc etc.
If the threat is not extreme, we suck it up, we don’t make YouTube-videos complaining about it, like “People, just a word of the wise here: only get drunk at home.” or
“Dog owners, just a word of the wise here: don’t let your dog bark at other people.”…
It would be a ridiculous thing to do (not that we wouldn’t understand that you find these situations creepy…).
It’s ridiculous and may be the reason Dawkins reacts in that “Don’t you have real problems?” manner (of course the guy-with-a-chewing-gum-analogy is totally stupid).
And still, the “Guys don’t do that…” is of course not equivalent to “all men are rapists”, it’s equivalent to “(nearly) all men have no manners and must be taught how not to be creepy”.
I’m still unsure what the problem is outside that ppl think she should not have thought he was creepy? o_O is it that they dun like her thoughts leading to the actions that are problematic/should have been different (i.e. saying that she was tired and not interested) or.. they just don’t like she thought the guy was creepy? o_O or that she gave advice? I’m still confused why ppl are upset xD
What would Skepchick have to do to make her critics here calm down and not upset? o: Clearly this is still a big issue to some ppl, so I’m wondering what the problem is that she should apologize for, or change her behaviour or etc? :]
Is it just the “you should be thinking about more important issues?” o:
2) You can’t complain that men use elevators at 4 am
Did she do that? o_O
Cuz I ttlly agree.. that would be f-ed up… obv ppl can use elevators…
I dun remember where she said there should be legal or physical consequences, outside that she would feel the actions were creepy and her actions to that thought was to say no xD but that’s how I read it :3
What happened to the 1500 comment thread btw? 😮 we should go back there and take this convo (and coming fight I’m sure xD) there! 😀 I think ppl should only respond there from now on 😀
What demands? No one made any demands.
Rebecca Watson didn’t make any demands; she provided an anecdote. She offered her opinion. She made and observation.
You sound completely ridiculous.
Marc, Watson at best was making a suggestion. A bit of advice. As in something to the effect of, “If you don’t want to creep somebody out, don’t proposition them in a tiny, enclosed space at 4 a.m.” I mean, not only will that make the ‘propositionee’ more comfortable, it may also possibly increase the ‘propositioner’s’ chances of achieving more positive results. Not the same thing as a demand. Nobody is obligated to do as she says, but she has the right to at least express her opinion on the matter.
Also, this is unrelated, but all of this “creep” talk reminded me of this video (sorry if someone else had the same thought in another thread and already posted it! >.< )
http://www.kovideo.net/assets/swf/K0Video.swf
Marc: It does not prove what you posit.
1: No one has asked anyone to not get on elevators.
2: Those people who find being on an elevator with someone els at 0400 have said they would change their behavior.
3: People doing secondary actions on an elevator (regardless of time of day) risk being seen as creepy.
4: If they don’t want to have people talk about it the can do the same thing the people in (2) did, and change their behavior.
Or, they can, “suck it up” and accept that being seen as creepy may get one talked about.
Hmm. That video didn’t embed like I’d hoped it would. Let’s try this again…
http://youtu.be/tLPZmPaHme0?hd=1
Yep, I piss off LOTS of guys, by not being Patriarchy Compliant. It can get scary sometimes.
we don’t make YouTube-videos complaining about it, like “People, just a word of the wise here: only get drunk at home.” or
“Dog owners, just a word of the wise here: don’t let your dog bark at other people.”…
Actually, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen both those rants on the Internet…
I’m pretty sure Richard Dawkins didn’t post comments mocking Mr. T for this video:
David are you going to blog about that callous New Hampshire Councilman and his vote to defund PP?