Here, found on Men’s Rights Reddit, is a “demotivational” poster that illustrates just why Rebecca Watson’s comments about that now-famous elevator incident, and the ensuing discussions that erupted amongst feminists online (and here, in our longest thread ever), were actually, you know, necessary: whoever made this evidently thinks that the very notion that a RAPIST would ask someone out for coffee first is so inherently and self-evidently hilarious that you don’t even have to explain why it’s so hilarious.
Never mind that, er, rapists often DO invite their future victims out for coffee, to the movies, out for a kebab, etc, etc first. Never mind that if some hypothetical woman had accepted a 4 AM “coffee in my room” invite and been raped, many of the very same guys now ranting about how she’s calling all men rapists would be blaming her for being a “slut” who “was asking for it” by agreeing to said “coffee” date.
(And I’ll just note that Watson did not in fact accuse her admirer in the elevator of being a rapist or even a creep; she simply mentioned that propositioning someone in an elevator at 4 AM is a creepy thing to do.)
And yes, that is Richard Dawkins in the picture. I’m not sure why someone who presumably agrees with what Dawkins said about the case would want to feature him in a poster next to the word “rapists,” but what do I know? In any case, Dawkins is now being hailed as a hero by more than a few of the regulars in the Men’s Rights subreddit — not for his scientific work, or his science writings, or even his atheist activism, but for his douchebaggery towards Watson. The Flying Spaghetti Monster works in mysterious ways, I guess.
Speaking of which — the mysterious ways thing, I mean — can anyone explain the logic behind this comment to me?
Specifically, could you explain the bit about “smack[ing] the shit out of” feminists who’ve stood up for Rebecca Watson? It seems to me that if you’re trying to make the point that Watson and her supporters are reacting hysterically to an innocent invitation to coffee, and that women have no reason to be fearful or concerned or even just mildly creeped out by men propositioning them in elevators at 4 am, it does not exactly help your case to talk about doing physical harm to feminists (or children, for that matter). Doesn’t that suggest, rather, that women should be concerned about strange men in elevators — because of the off chance that one of these strange men could turn out to be, you know, the sort of dude who posts shit like that on the internet?
“Molly: This may offend your feminist sensibilities, but I’ve found that it’s usually much more useful and accurate to observe what women do rather than what they say. So yeah.”
So you think you’re justified in doing what you want, no matter what someone female says? What if they’re one of the small subset of women who actually mean it?
I mean, if I’m having sex with someone hot, and they say “No, don’t do X”, I’m going to stop, even if they have the hottest dick I’ve ever seen. Because if I push on, and they actually meant it, I’m raping them. Stopping when someone says “no” and them possibly missing out on an orgasm seems to be the lesser evil, when the alternative is me breaking their trust in me, or damaging them so that they will have difficulty having sex in the future.
Now, I *have* been in scenes where it’s been pre-negotiated that “no” doesn’t mean “no”, “banana” means “no”, so we can have the fun of playacting during sex. But this usually requires more communication and trust than you’d have with someone you just met in an elevator.
Stupid HTML fail.
Can’t count how many times I’ve heard a woman say she wants to be left alone when she actually meant she only wanted certain people paying attention to her.
Um, Ion? If you’re one of those people who women don’t want to pay attention to them, there’s a reason for that. From your posts on this thread, I’m pretty sure I know what the reason is. Juuuust sayin’.
Someday I think that Ion will discover Venn diagrams. He will then reject them as a fascist feminist plot.
You also seem to be unable to distinguish between disappointment and humiliation. This says more about you than about us.
his may offend your feminist sensibilities, but I’ve found that it’s usually much more useful and accurate to observe what women do rather than what they say. So yeah.
When I was younger and stupider I used this same type of logic and took advantage of a guy. His words were telling me “I’m not ready for sex, I’m still getting over my ex-girlfriend” but his erection was telling me “I want sex” and I kept pushing until he relented and had sex with me. You know what? THIS WAS FUCKING WRONG. I should have listened to his words. I lost a friend over the incident and I regret it greatly.
KristinMH: Well I’m just crushed. Does that mean our date is off, then?
Better safe than sorry. Say you don’t smoke and keep walking. That way, this black guy won’t feel like he asked a light from a racist, and you can be safe in the knowledge that you won’t get knifed in a dark alley.
That’s fine, but it doesn’t answer me. Should that man be told he’s guilty of approaching me and making me feel uncomfortable? Should I claim that?
“That’s fine, but it doesn’t answer me. Should that man be told he’s guilty of approaching me and making me feel uncomfortable? Should I claim that?”
I think Pecunium already answered this.
I actually have turned down people (white, black, male and female) who have tried to get my attention in places where I felt unsafe. They might have just been wanting a light, but I value my instincts more than their need.
Ok, I’m going to bed. It’s gotten somewhat boring and tedious, anyway, trying to keep up when I get 20 replies to every post. Posts which are, of course, totally wrong and being laughed at. Or something. Becuse you say so. Yet you keep replying. G’night!
Those certain people wouldn’t happen to be Non-creepy people, would they? Perhaps the “certain people” who believe the radical idea that women are people too? Perhaps the certain people who don’t say stuff like, “I worked up the nerve to talk to her, so b**** better put out!”
Awww…it must have been the photo of Anthony Perkins from Psycho that has scared off Ion.
“Ok, I’m going to bed. It’s gotten somewhat boring and tedious, anyway, trying to keep up when I get 20 replies to every post. Posts which are, of course, totally wrong and being laughed at. Or something. Becuse you say so. Yet you keep replying. G’night!”
Well, there was that time when Kirbywarp got wildly excited at the chance to debate a Creationist. I won’t argue that we take this super seriously, but you *could* argue that we have an unusual definition of “fun”. I mean, I often read gender theory to relax… 😛
What’s truely amazing is that no matter how many times or howmany words are used to tell Ion he’s defending a creepy guy he’s going continue to
1) Defend creepy guy
*Because what do you feminists know? You have lady brains.
2) Continue to be creepy and defensive about being a creep
*Because what do you feminists know? You have lady brains.
Ion, are you even interested in approaching women? I mean, do you actually give a shit about how difficult it can be to approach women in the pursuit of a romantic and/or sexual relationship?
Or is this just an argument you want to win?
Ion,
If you have to switch out a non-privledged person (black guy asking for a light) for a privledged person (Elevator Guy propositioning) in order to make the comparison work, you have a serious problem with your metaphor.
How about, a young black guy is wandering home at night though a quiet neighborhood, and a cop cruiser pulls up next to him. The cop says, “What are you doing in these parts?”
See, the YBG doesn’t know if the cop is a great guy who just wants to help him home or if he’s there to harrass him. He probably feels a little uncomfortable, beyond what a white person would, due to the history of race relations between cops and YBGs. He legitimately has a good reason to be concerned for his own health and safety, and it wouldn’t be unlike the wariness that a woman might feel while alone in an elevator with a guy propositioning her.
And if the cop just leaves after YBG says, “Heading home,” YBG probably feels relief at the end of that awkward and potentially harmful situation. Being wary because you’ve been harrassed before is not the same as harboring an unfounded suspiscion of a group. It’s self-preservation.
Now, is the YBG more sympathetic than Rebecca Watson? Probably, because it’s actually considered pretty racist to just assume a black guy has no business in a residential area at night. Whereas it’s still considered fine and dandy for a woman to always be a potential romantic partner, even if she’s married and has already said she just wants to sleep.
“Ion, are you even interested in approaching women?”
Oh, yeah, wasn’t someone claiming he was gay a while back? That always confused me, since as far as I know Ion hasn’t made a statement either way.
I read gender theory to relax too! Also, comic books.
@Joanna
Johanna is the German spelling of your name, the French would be Jeanne, the Italian Giovanna. So yes, it’s kind of an European thing ;-).
Well, Molly Ren, I am wondering. I know that Marc-person alludes to being uninterested in women. I assume he’s just sort of being contrarian out of stupidity or boredom. And, clearly, NWO isn’t interested in approaching women.
But Ion seems different. And I am curious.
Nobinayamu: Winning is, for Ion, irrelevant. He want’s to spout off. Having done that he can claim the victory he thinks he’s had all along. I know you keep protesting it, but I’m convinced that … Like Aristotle and his wife’s teeth, or the “king bee”, he doesn’t need the facts because he’s already figured out the answers.
Everything else, so far as can be determined, he sees as mere commentary. We, however, persist in looking at the evidence, and the testimony of the actual participant, which brings to different conclusions.
Me, I think that, had she found him attractive there never would have been the scene in the elevator. Given the talk she had just given she’d have let him know; as an act of courtesy, since the speech, and the conversation would have caused the sort of man she might be interested in to refrain from making an advance in those circumstances, and she’d not want to miss out on the possibility of frolicsome good times (if that was her desire) because of that.
But that’s me. I’m used to women speaking their minds when they want to shag someone.
Which, by Ion’s reasoning, is code for if you’re hot, you can now ask him to your room for coffee no matter what time of night it is for him because that’s a reasonable thing to do instead of respecting what he just said and taking it at face value.
Ion has said he is interested in women. He has, in fact, said he wishes women were willing to express sexual interest so he wouldn’t have to work so hard to get laid. He’s also said PUA tricks have helped him in that regard.
I think it pretty much comes down to that EG hit on her:
1) After she had given a talk about women being sick of being hit on at cons
2) After she said she was tired and wanted to sleep
3) In an elevator
4) At 4am
5) And invited her back to his room instead of a public place.
If only ONE of those things had been true it’s super unlikely it would have been called “creepy” (still possible because those aren’t the only variables, but unlikely)
If two were true, depending on which two, most likely still not creepy.
But getting upwards of 3 of those things being true and we’re in uncomfortable territory. All FIVE things being true and you gotta wonder why they guy thought he’d have ANY chance of success.
Ion: It’s gotten somewhat boring and tedious, anyway, trying to keep up when I get 20 replies to every post.
Because you ask direct questions, which garner direct answers which you ignore, and then you repeat the questions as if not answered.
You don’t really have grounds to complain, much less to affect a wearying burden, since you worked to get those responses.
Oh sweet jeebus. Ion, if all the would-be rapists would wear obvious, permanent signs that say “Yes, I’m a rapist”, women would spend a lot less time analyzing for creep factor in conversations with non-sign-wearing awkward and socially inept men, even when it’s late and they are trapped alone with them.
So get on that, and everything will be much better.
What’s with all this conversation? I thought Futrelle invited me here for “coffee”. I been robbed I tells ya!