Here, found on Men’s Rights Reddit, is a “demotivational” poster that illustrates just why Rebecca Watson’s comments about that now-famous elevator incident, and the ensuing discussions that erupted amongst feminists online (and here, in our longest thread ever), were actually, you know, necessary: whoever made this evidently thinks that the very notion that a RAPIST would ask someone out for coffee first is so inherently and self-evidently hilarious that you don’t even have to explain why it’s so hilarious.
Never mind that, er, rapists often DO invite their future victims out for coffee, to the movies, out for a kebab, etc, etc first. Never mind that if some hypothetical woman had accepted a 4 AM “coffee in my room” invite and been raped, many of the very same guys now ranting about how she’s calling all men rapists would be blaming her for being a “slut” who “was asking for it” by agreeing to said “coffee” date.
(And I’ll just note that Watson did not in fact accuse her admirer in the elevator of being a rapist or even a creep; she simply mentioned that propositioning someone in an elevator at 4 AM is a creepy thing to do.)
And yes, that is Richard Dawkins in the picture. I’m not sure why someone who presumably agrees with what Dawkins said about the case would want to feature him in a poster next to the word “rapists,” but what do I know? In any case, Dawkins is now being hailed as a hero by more than a few of the regulars in the Men’s Rights subreddit — not for his scientific work, or his science writings, or even his atheist activism, but for his douchebaggery towards Watson. The Flying Spaghetti Monster works in mysterious ways, I guess.
Speaking of which — the mysterious ways thing, I mean — can anyone explain the logic behind this comment to me?
Specifically, could you explain the bit about “smack[ing] the shit out of” feminists who’ve stood up for Rebecca Watson? It seems to me that if you’re trying to make the point that Watson and her supporters are reacting hysterically to an innocent invitation to coffee, and that women have no reason to be fearful or concerned or even just mildly creeped out by men propositioning them in elevators at 4 am, it does not exactly help your case to talk about doing physical harm to feminists (or children, for that matter). Doesn’t that suggest, rather, that women should be concerned about strange men in elevators — because of the off chance that one of these strange men could turn out to be, you know, the sort of dude who posts shit like that on the internet?
“Your point being?”
You might discover that this whole “men aways approach, women are always high-and-mighty” theory of dating isn’t universal?
I have been asked out once in person. Then again I am not stereotypically pretty and shy so I understand but if I was to wait for a guy to approach me I would die of terminal boredom by the age of 35.
Also Ion, that was a joke-now who is the humourless one?
You might discover that this whole “men aways approach, women are always high-and-mighty” theory of dating isn’t universal?
Ah, gotcha. Sorry, but I still don’t agree. Being fat is no major obstacle – plenty of men are into women with curves. Ditto for shy, in fact men might find you easier to approach than if you were, say, loud and assertive. Queer, I can’t say I’ve had any experiences but logically it would be easier when you’re dealing with people of your own gender? And I’m not sure what you meant by non-malicious. None of these are good counter-arguments, though.
If you’re a woman who likes initiating, good for you, I wish there were more like you. Yours is not the prevailing attitude, though, in my real-world experience.
“The privilege consists in sitting back and waiting for men to make the first move, as society tells them and they are conditioned to do, accepting the ones you want and rejecting/humiliating the ones you don’t. The vast majority of men don’t have anything like that.”
I find it interesting that he chose to put “rejecting/humiliating”. If they humiliate you, they’re being a jerk, not “female”. But it’s totally fine to turn someone down if you don’t want to have sex with them, even if it’s because you think they’re unattractive. Having sex with someone who wasn’t turned on by me the same way I was by them sounds problematic in and of itself.
You live in Europe and find it hard to find women to initiate? Where are you going for women, convents?
To be fair, a refusal to think of villains in terms of ordinary humanity isn’t confined to MRAs. Rapists don’t ask you for coffee, they just lurk behind bushes twirling their mustaches evilly until a virgin innocently wanders by.
It’s sort of the mirror image of victim-blaming, psychologically: If that woman hadn’t done/said/worn that she wouldn’t have been raped; I don’t do/say/wear that, so I cannot be raped. Rapists do/say/look like this; I don’t do/say/look like this, so I cannot be a rapist.
It’s stupid and it’s magical thinking, but that is definitely the thought process involved. If rapists are a different species, not a subset of ordinary (if despicable) people, then I don’t have to think about whether or not the sex I have in consensual. It’s defining rape as “a thing rapists do”, where “rapist” is defined pretty arbitrarily, instead of “non-consensual sex”.
I should have phrased it more clearly: you can reject those you don’t deem acceptable in the most insulting/humiliating way possible and feel completely justified doing so.
Goes back to what I mentioned a bit earlier – women can behave however they want and if men dare to challenge that, they’re being misoynist. However, women also have the right to demand certain behaviors from men, and if they refuse, they’re of course being misogynist.
Rapists don’t ask you for coffee, they just lurk behind bushes twirling their mustaches evilly until a virgin innocently wanders by.
Wait, weren’t you one of the ones mightily protesting when I said the femisphere pretty much labeled this guy a rapist?
“I should have phrased it more clearly: you can reject those you don’t deem acceptable in the most insulting/humiliating way possible and feel completely justified doing so.”
That actually sounds like a pretty shitty way to treat anyone, Ion.
You write with vastly better grammar than NWOslave, but you still seem to be having a problem with nuance. To quote the original article above, “(And I’ll just note that Watson did not in fact accuse her admirer in the elevator of being a rapist or even a creep; she simply mentioned that propositioning someone in an elevator at 4 AM is a creepy thing to do.)” We spent over 2,000 comments talking about how the real point wasn’t Watson’s offhand comment, but the shitstorm of people defending acting like a creep, and you’re still entirely oblivious. That’s what I’m finding amusing.
You know, I didn’t read the quoted comment by SkepChick as being all that celebratory. I thought she was poking fun at some of the vapid discussions and people.
I said it on the previous thread, and I’ll say it again – if the hottest guy in the world acts like a creep towards me, I am going to get creeped out.
“I should have phrased it more clearly: you can reject those you don’t deem acceptable in the most insulting/humiliating way possible and feel completely justified doing so.”
I am but a single, humble data point, and so are my female friends, but I’ve *never* humiliated someone when turning them down. I haven’t seen any of my girl friends humiliate anyone either. That’s be cause we’re decent (operative word incoming) human beings. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, cause, yeah, people are assholes. But that means guys do it too. I’ve been mocked before by dudes just for having curly hair that gets frizzy in high humidity.
But going back to Watson and her story- she didn’t bring any of it up, so why speculate? Like I said in a previous comment- attractive people can behave creepily, too. He made her uncomfortable, enough reason for her to turn him down.
To the extent that it’s more acceptable for women to initiate, we can thank feminism.
I disagree with someone rejecting a person in the most humiliating way possible because of well “I can!” That is rude and unnecessary.
However it does sometimes require that you stomp on the person because they refuse to take a politely worded, a terse, and finally a yelled NO YOU SLIME FILLED MONKEY TOAD as a rejection.
Ion: The “femisphere” hasn’t labeled this guy a rapist. Rather, it’s the manosphere that’s screeching hysterically that Watson labeled this guy a rapist when she said nothing of the sort.
Second: women can’t, in fact, behave however we want. We too, are subject to criminal laws, as well as the possibility of being hit, stabbed, shot, or, you know, humiliated. Your argument that men never insult or humiliate women is farcical.
women can behave however they want and if men dare to challenge that, they’re being misoynist
Actually, no, it depends. If you “challenge” behavior, such, as you, know, sticking a broom in your ass for rejecting sexual advances, you are not being a misogynist. If you equate rejection with sexual assault, you are being a misogynist. In fact, you even have a right to be a jackass without being labeled a misogynist.
That actually sounds like a pretty shitty way to treat anyone, Ion.
You’re right. But if a man points that out, he’s attacked and called a misogynist.
over 2,000 comments talking about how the real point wasn’t Watson’s offhand comment, but the shitstorm of people defending acting like a creep
So you do admit to thinking he acted like a creep, even if you defend Watson from such a claim. As for the shitstorm, I think it was started and maintained by people on both sides.
“Yours is not the prevailing attitude, though, in my real-world experience.”
You mean this “real-world experience?”
*snicker*
You know what’s funny? You try to come off as [ ] and [ ], but in fact, I actually used to think like you when I was younger and [ ]. I bought into all the “men are [ ], men are natural [ ]” crap spouted by feminist [ ] and their neutered mangina [ ]. I was concerned about not coming off as [ ] or creepy. I was courteous and [ ] and [ ], I respected women, but I forgot to respect [ ]. And while the [ ] boys, playa gangstas, and abusive [ ]bags were [ ]ing around town with an “I take what I want” attitude and a new [ ] on their [ ] every week, I was hearing “Wow, you’re a great [ ], but I like you as a [ ]. Well, see you later, gotta go have [ ] with the [ ] boyfriend I’ve been complaining to [ ] about!”
So you’re right about the [ ]-puffing part, but not so much about the being [ ]. I’m less [ ] now than I ever was. I put myself [ ]. I don’t apologize for being a [ ]. It took me a while to [ ] up, but I did. And let me tell you, things are better than [ ]. I got my first [ ] after acting ‘inappropriate’ and going for a [ ] the night we first met. A day later, she was the one would wouldn’t [ ] me [ ]. So much for “[ ] give in because of [ ] pressures”, I guess. Second [ ], in college, I [ ] like a five-year old [ ]. Totally out of character, even I was ashamed of my [ ]. Afterwards, she was [ ] me to hang out. Sometime later, I met [ ] I really [ ]. Like an [ ], I decided to play it cool, be [ ], be [ ], take [ ] slowly. Guess what? Zero interest. Learned my lesson then and haven’t [ ] back. As for “friends who will [ ] me”… I don’t know what the [ ] are like where you live, but the [ ] I know just don’t fit your [ ] [ ]. Also, currently half my friends are [ ]. Weird, huh. But uh, keep telling yourself you’re so much better for being a neutered [ ]. I’ll be busy having [ ] in the [ ] world meanwhile.
And bacon
The world according to Ion: all women are self righteous, malicious vipers with every intent to degrade and humiliate members of the opposite sex.
You, my dear, need serious counselling.
And $MONEY$!
Well, yeah, Beth, obviously. 🙂
You know what’s funny? You try to come off as bacon and bacon, but in fact, I actually used to think like you when I was younger and bacon. I bought into all the “men are bacon, men are natural bacon” crap spouted by feminist bacon and their neutered mangina bacon. I was concerned about not coming off as bacon or creepy. I was courteous and bacon and bacon, I respected women, but I forgot to respect bacon. And while the bacon boys, playa gangstas, and abusive bacon bags were baconing around town with an “I take what I want” attitude and a new bacon on their bacon every week, I was hearing “Wow, you’re a great bacon, but I like you as a bacon. Well, see you later, gotta go have bacon with the bacon boyfriend I’ve been complaining to bacon about!”
Sometimes I just can’t help myself.
Ion Yours is not the prevailing attitude, though, in my real-world experience.
Which, as previously explained, says more about you than anything else.
Actually, yeah. By the way, if cutting out words from that post is what you consider humor, I wouldn’t go looking for a job at SNL anytime soon…
That’s ok, though, we can’t expect everyone to have a real answer. Some people are content to sit on the sidelines and jeer.
You’re right, Ion, we are making fun of you. But you’ve made it so damn easy and you take your worldview so damn seriously! 😛
“Ion, have you ever talked to someone female who was fat, shy, queer, or non-malicious about their dating experiences?”
BINGO! I try to point this out to MRA-ers but they never buy it. Further, I point out that in their common scenario in which the man approaches the woman, the man has CHOSEN what woman he wants to approach based on her attractiveness. If he is not attracted to a particular woman he simply never approaches her at all. Both people in this scenario have an equal right to refusal.