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misogyny MRA rape rapey reddit sluts that's not funny!

Atheist Elevator Redux

Found on the Men's Rights subreddit on Reddit

Here, found on Men’s Rights Reddit, is a “demotivational” poster that illustrates just why Rebecca Watson’s comments about that now-famous elevator incident, and the ensuing discussions that erupted amongst feminists online (and here, in our longest  thread ever), were actually, you know,  necessary: whoever made this evidently thinks that the very notion that a RAPIST would ask someone out for coffee first is so inherently and self-evidently hilarious that you don’t even have to explain why it’s so hilarious.

Never mind that, er, rapists often DO invite their future victims out for coffee, to the movies, out for a kebab, etc, etc first. Never mind that if some hypothetical woman had accepted a 4 AM “coffee in my room” invite and been raped, many of the very same guys now ranting about how she’s calling all men rapists would be blaming her for being a “slut” who “was asking for it” by agreeing to said “coffee” date.

(And I’ll just note that Watson did not in fact accuse her admirer in the elevator of being a rapist or even a creep; she simply mentioned that propositioning someone in an elevator at 4 AM is a creepy thing to do.)

And yes, that is Richard Dawkins in the picture. I’m not sure why someone who presumably agrees with what Dawkins said about the case would want to feature him in a poster next to the word “rapists,” but what do I know?  In any case, Dawkins is now being hailed as a hero by more than a few of the regulars in the Men’s Rights subreddit — not for his scientific work, or his science writings, or even his atheist activism, but for his douchebaggery towards Watson. The Flying Spaghetti Monster works in mysterious ways, I guess.

Speaking of which — the mysterious ways thing, I mean  — can anyone explain the logic behind this comment to me?

Specifically, could you explain the bit about “smack[ing] the shit out of” feminists who’ve stood up for Rebecca Watson? It seems to me that if you’re trying to make the point that Watson and her supporters are reacting hysterically to an innocent invitation to coffee, and that women have no reason to  be fearful or concerned or even just mildly creeped out by men propositioning them in elevators at 4 am, it does not exactly help your case to talk about doing physical harm to feminists (or children, for that matter). Doesn’t that suggest, rather, that women should be concerned about strange men in elevators — because of the off chance that one of these strange men could turn out to be, you know, the sort of dude who posts shit like that on the internet?

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PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

It stems from the idea that if you have a hysterical person (woman) the fastest way to get them to calm down is to slap them.

Never made much sense to me but that is something in plenty of old timey movies.

Ohiken
Ohiken
10 years ago

See, a rapist doesn’t offer coffee, they only jump out of the bushes. Men, who are not in any way rapists, offer coffee and accept sex in return for their largess.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

Yeah, Dawkins is refusing to look at the mote in his own eye while pointing to the log in another’s.

Which is stupid.

Point out someone else *IS MUCH WORSE* doesn’t make being cornered in an elevator ar 4 am any better.
So, yes, Dawkins is an ass for failing to recognize that the reason that there aren’t more women at atheist/skeptics meetins is because they are creeped out by the men who attend atheist/skeptics events.

No, genital mutilation and oppression in other countries, isn’t right either. As a scientist Dawkins should know that “But they’re worse!” isn’t a valid argument.

Kevin T. Keith
Kevin T. Keith
10 years ago

“can anyone explain the logic . . .”

You’re kidding, right?

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
10 years ago

The thing is that this would have gone away with barely a peep except in a few atheist and sceptical blogs if Richard Dawkins just kept his privileged mouth shut. The initial overreaction was his (at least, the original famous person overreaction, a whole bunch of Dudez were already overreacting).

Yet the Dudez keep accusing us of hysterical overreaction. Pot, meet kettle.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I dunno maybe it’s just me but I XDed at that poster.. I know it’s supposed to I guess make fun of Watson and her supporters (I guess? o_O) like “this is what you believe!” but… I think it’s just the way it’s made and everything imposed together w/ all the context (and as you said, yes, rapists CAN invite you over to coffee, even tho in this case she did not say “he’s a rapist! he tried to!”) there’s an absurdist element that just makes me giggle and not be offended reading it xD but that’s just me :3

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

It stems from the idea that if you have a hysterical person (woman) the fastest way to get them to calm down is to slap them.

Never made much sense to me but that is something in plenty of old timey movies.

Yeah but it doesn’t seem to work…

Marc
Marc
10 years ago

and that women have no reason to be fearful or concerned or even just mildly creeped out by men propositioning them in elevators at 4 am

Is being alone in an elevator at 4 am

(A) with a man who speaks no word

so much better than

(B) with a man who is proposing to you?

You can be sure about (B) that he has at least no plan to rape you right now in the elevator and asking you for “coffee” is also a signal that he wants consensual sex. So imho less creepy than (A).

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Would you calm down if someone slapped you Ion? Because we can test it if you want…

Also Marc, actually a quiet man who does not speak to me is less of a concern then the one who does ask me to coffee in his hotel room because he leaves me alone. If he follows me-possibly. I know my alertness goes way up if he does.

redlocker
10 years ago

How are you in any position to determine what is and isn’t creepy to women, Marc?

Amused
Amused
10 years ago

You can be sure about (B) that he has at least no plan to rape you right now in the elevator and asking you for “coffee” is also a signal that he wants consensual sex. So imho less creepy than (A).

Really, Marc? I can be sure of that? He could be an MRA who will take a polite “no” as a “hate crime” and rape me right there in the elevator as payback for refusing to do it consensually. Also, your suggestion that men who ride elevators at 4 a.m. divide into 2 categories — those who rape now versus those who rape later? Not sure what you are saying there. That women interpret silence on the part of a man in an elevator as an indication that he is about to rape? It’s nonsensical. So yes, call me crazy, but if I am in an elevator at 4 am, I am more comfortable with a man who doesn’t say anything or says something about the weather, or something, instead of propositioning. Also, if a man propositions, it should preferably be done in a space that’s not as confined as an elevator, so that after I say “no”, I don’t remain trapped in a box with a stranger who may or may not feel stung and insulted by the rejection.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

Would you calm down if someone slapped you Ion? Because we can test it if you want…

It was a joke based on that Airplane scene, oh humorless and perpetually-offended one. But as for your statement… you’re welcome to try anytime.

BTW, found a nice quote on that Reddit which says this better than I could:

The really interesting angle here, that I haven’t heard anyone else bring up, is the massive amount of female privilege that SkepChick is wielding seemingly without even realizing it. Consider this post she made on her blog last year:

I think American Atheists is a very good organization and quite necessary in that it helps provide support and a voice to the nonreligious. Highlight of the weekend: watching two hot college girls on a panel fight over the use of humor and controversy to spread the atheistic word. I kept hoping the moderator would suggest we all head upstairs to a hotel room and settle this with a tickle fight.

If you thought that last sentence was condescending, you didn’t hear the girls in question going back and forth over who failed to invite whom to a party/meeting/whatever.

If you want to hear more about what I thought of the weekend (and not just the random sexual fantasies I entertained), you’ll have to wait to read the article I’m going to write about it for Skeptic.

She actually celebrates the sexual atmosphere of these conferences. What’s different about the above story and the elevator story? The difference is, she didn’t find the guy in the elevator attractive. If she had found him attractive, then she would have fucked his brains out and made another post to her blog like the one I just quoted.

That’s the enormous female privilege going on here. “If I find you attractive then, hooray!! I’m a powerful independent woman in charge of my own body and sex is great! We aren’t like those stupid christians who think sex is dirty! You go girl!

However, if I don’t find you attractive then WTF! HOW DARE YOU talk to me! You are creepy! You should know better! I’m going to humiliate you on the internet”

Agreed 100%.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

Is being alone in an elevator at 4 am (A) with a man who speaks no word so much better than (B) with a man who is proposing to you?

Yes.
This has been another issue of “Simple Answers to Clueless Chumps”

Andrea Vaughn
10 years ago

Refusing to have sex with someone is a “privilege” and not a right. But only if you’re female. Got it.

filetofswedishfish
10 years ago

“Is being alone in an elevator at 4 am

(A) with a man who speaks no word

so much better than

(B) with a man who is proposing to you?

You can be sure about (B) that he has at least no plan to rape you right now in the elevator and asking you for “coffee” is also a signal that he wants consensual sex. So imho less creepy than (A).”

Personally, at 4 am, I’d wait for the next elevator. But now you’re going to cry that I automatically think all men are rapists.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

She actually celebrates the sexual atmosphere of these conferences.

No. No she doesn’t. She expresses her *own* thoughts and fantasies that she had during a particular panel. And appropriately *keeps the to herself* until it was an appropriate moment (i.e. her own blog)

The fact that you can’t recognize appropriate venue vs. inappropriate says more about you than Rebecca.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

The privilege consists in sitting back and waiting for men to make the first move, as society tells them and they are conditioned to do, accepting the ones you want and rejecting/humiliating the ones you don’t. The vast majority of men don’t have anything like that.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“The difference is, she didn’t find the guy in the elevator attractive. If she had found him attractive, then she would have fucked his brains out and made another post to her blog like the one I just quoted.”

Ion just won’t let this go.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

I know, I quoted it because it reminded me of the very first thing I said in this thread. Looks like I’m not the only one, by a longshot.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

*er, that would be the other elevator thread. But it’s amusing that people are replying to the quote as though I wrote it. Attention span of a gnat.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

Ion just won’t let this go.

Neither will you, apparently.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Ion, have you ever talked to someone female who was fat, shy, queer, or non-malicious about their dating experiences?

filetofswedishfish
10 years ago

You think it’s impossible to be creeped out by people you initially find attractive? Dude, I had a group project in a poli sci class a few years ago where I had my group over at my apartment. There were about 4 of us, 5 including me, 3 guys 2 girls. One of the guys I did think was cute. Until I went to get something off the desk in my room, he followed me in there, and cornered me. No longer cute. And I’ve had plenty of physically attractive men say/do inappropriate, creepy things that made me uncomfortable. I told them to go away, and thus did not fuck them, or their brains out.

I feel like I/we shouldn’t have to say this so many times, but I have been wrong before.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“Ion just won’t let this go.

“Neither will you, apparently.”

I’m easily amused.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

Ion, have you ever talked to someone female who was fat, shy, queer, or non-malicious about their dating experiences?

Your point being?

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“Your point being?”

You might discover that this whole “men aways approach, women are always high-and-mighty” theory of dating isn’t universal?

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

I have been asked out once in person. Then again I am not stereotypically pretty and shy so I understand but if I was to wait for a guy to approach me I would die of terminal boredom by the age of 35.

Also Ion, that was a joke-now who is the humourless one?

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

You might discover that this whole “men aways approach, women are always high-and-mighty” theory of dating isn’t universal?

Ah, gotcha. Sorry, but I still don’t agree. Being fat is no major obstacle – plenty of men are into women with curves. Ditto for shy, in fact men might find you easier to approach than if you were, say, loud and assertive. Queer, I can’t say I’ve had any experiences but logically it would be easier when you’re dealing with people of your own gender? And I’m not sure what you meant by non-malicious. None of these are good counter-arguments, though.

If you’re a woman who likes initiating, good for you, I wish there were more like you. Yours is not the prevailing attitude, though, in my real-world experience.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“The privilege consists in sitting back and waiting for men to make the first move, as society tells them and they are conditioned to do, accepting the ones you want and rejecting/humiliating the ones you don’t. The vast majority of men don’t have anything like that.”

I find it interesting that he chose to put “rejecting/humiliating”. If they humiliate you, they’re being a jerk, not “female”. But it’s totally fine to turn someone down if you don’t want to have sex with them, even if it’s because you think they’re unattractive. Having sex with someone who wasn’t turned on by me the same way I was by them sounds problematic in and of itself.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

You live in Europe and find it hard to find women to initiate? Where are you going for women, convents?

KristinMH
10 years ago

To be fair, a refusal to think of villains in terms of ordinary humanity isn’t confined to MRAs. Rapists don’t ask you for coffee, they just lurk behind bushes twirling their mustaches evilly until a virgin innocently wanders by.

It’s sort of the mirror image of victim-blaming, psychologically: If that woman hadn’t done/said/worn that she wouldn’t have been raped; I don’t do/say/wear that, so I cannot be raped. Rapists do/say/look like this; I don’t do/say/look like this, so I cannot be a rapist.

It’s stupid and it’s magical thinking, but that is definitely the thought process involved. If rapists are a different species, not a subset of ordinary (if despicable) people, then I don’t have to think about whether or not the sex I have in consensual. It’s defining rape as “a thing rapists do”, where “rapist” is defined pretty arbitrarily, instead of “non-consensual sex”.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

I should have phrased it more clearly: you can reject those you don’t deem acceptable in the most insulting/humiliating way possible and feel completely justified doing so.

Goes back to what I mentioned a bit earlier – women can behave however they want and if men dare to challenge that, they’re being misoynist. However, women also have the right to demand certain behaviors from men, and if they refuse, they’re of course being misogynist.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

Rapists don’t ask you for coffee, they just lurk behind bushes twirling their mustaches evilly until a virgin innocently wanders by.

Wait, weren’t you one of the ones mightily protesting when I said the femisphere pretty much labeled this guy a rapist?

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“I should have phrased it more clearly: you can reject those you don’t deem acceptable in the most insulting/humiliating way possible and feel completely justified doing so.”

That actually sounds like a pretty shitty way to treat anyone, Ion.

You write with vastly better grammar than NWOslave, but you still seem to be having a problem with nuance. To quote the original article above, “(And I’ll just note that Watson did not in fact accuse her admirer in the elevator of being a rapist or even a creep; she simply mentioned that propositioning someone in an elevator at 4 AM is a creepy thing to do.)” We spent over 2,000 comments talking about how the real point wasn’t Watson’s offhand comment, but the shitstorm of people defending acting like a creep, and you’re still entirely oblivious. That’s what I’m finding amusing.

Victoria von Syrus
Victoria von Syrus
10 years ago

You know, I didn’t read the quoted comment by SkepChick as being all that celebratory. I thought she was poking fun at some of the vapid discussions and people.

I said it on the previous thread, and I’ll say it again – if the hottest guy in the world acts like a creep towards me, I am going to get creeped out.

filetofswedishfish
10 years ago

“I should have phrased it more clearly: you can reject those you don’t deem acceptable in the most insulting/humiliating way possible and feel completely justified doing so.”

I am but a single, humble data point, and so are my female friends, but I’ve *never* humiliated someone when turning them down. I haven’t seen any of my girl friends humiliate anyone either. That’s be cause we’re decent (operative word incoming) human beings. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, cause, yeah, people are assholes. But that means guys do it too. I’ve been mocked before by dudes just for having curly hair that gets frizzy in high humidity.

But going back to Watson and her story- she didn’t bring any of it up, so why speculate? Like I said in a previous comment- attractive people can behave creepily, too. He made her uncomfortable, enough reason for her to turn him down.

captainbathrobe
10 years ago

To the extent that it’s more acceptable for women to initiate, we can thank feminism.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

I disagree with someone rejecting a person in the most humiliating way possible because of well “I can!” That is rude and unnecessary.

However it does sometimes require that you stomp on the person because they refuse to take a politely worded, a terse, and finally a yelled NO YOU SLIME FILLED MONKEY TOAD as a rejection.

Amused
Amused
10 years ago

Ion: The “femisphere” hasn’t labeled this guy a rapist. Rather, it’s the manosphere that’s screeching hysterically that Watson labeled this guy a rapist when she said nothing of the sort.

Second: women can’t, in fact, behave however we want. We too, are subject to criminal laws, as well as the possibility of being hit, stabbed, shot, or, you know, humiliated. Your argument that men never insult or humiliate women is farcical.

women can behave however they want and if men dare to challenge that, they’re being misoynist

Actually, no, it depends. If you “challenge” behavior, such, as you, know, sticking a broom in your ass for rejecting sexual advances, you are not being a misogynist. If you equate rejection with sexual assault, you are being a misogynist. In fact, you even have a right to be a jackass without being labeled a misogynist.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

That actually sounds like a pretty shitty way to treat anyone, Ion.

You’re right. But if a man points that out, he’s attacked and called a misogynist.

over 2,000 comments talking about how the real point wasn’t Watson’s offhand comment, but the shitstorm of people defending acting like a creep

So you do admit to thinking he acted like a creep, even if you defend Watson from such a claim. As for the shitstorm, I think it was started and maintained by people on both sides.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
10 years ago

“Yours is not the prevailing attitude, though, in my real-world experience.”

You mean this “real-world experience?”

*snicker*

You know what’s funny? You try to come off as [ ] and [ ], but in fact, I actually used to think like you when I was younger and [ ]. I bought into all the “men are [ ], men are natural [ ]” crap spouted by feminist [ ] and their neutered mangina [ ]. I was concerned about not coming off as [ ] or creepy. I was courteous and [ ] and [ ], I respected women, but I forgot to respect [ ]. And while the [ ] boys, playa gangstas, and abusive [ ]bags were [ ]ing around town with an “I take what I want” attitude and a new [ ] on their [ ] every week, I was hearing “Wow, you’re a great [ ], but I like you as a [ ]. Well, see you later, gotta go have [ ] with the [ ] boyfriend I’ve been complaining to [ ] about!”

So you’re right about the [ ]-puffing part, but not so much about the being [ ]. I’m less [ ] now than I ever was. I put myself [ ]. I don’t apologize for being a [ ]. It took me a while to [ ] up, but I did. And let me tell you, things are better than [ ]. I got my first [ ] after acting ‘inappropriate’ and going for a [ ] the night we first met. A day later, she was the one would wouldn’t [ ] me [ ]. So much for “[ ] give in because of [ ] pressures”, I guess. Second [ ], in college, I [ ] like a five-year old [ ]. Totally out of character, even I was ashamed of my [ ]. Afterwards, she was [ ] me to hang out. Sometime later, I met [ ] I really [ ]. Like an [ ], I decided to play it cool, be [ ], be [ ], take [ ] slowly. Guess what? Zero interest. Learned my lesson then and haven’t [ ] back. As for “friends who will [ ] me”… I don’t know what the [ ] are like where you live, but the [ ] I know just don’t fit your [ ] [ ]. Also, currently half my friends are [ ]. Weird, huh. But uh, keep telling yourself you’re so much better for being a neutered [ ]. I’ll be busy having [ ] in the [ ] world meanwhile.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

And bacon

Jodi
Jodi
10 years ago

The world according to Ion: all women are self righteous, malicious vipers with every intent to degrade and humiliate members of the opposite sex.

You, my dear, need serious counselling.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
10 years ago

And $MONEY$!

captainbathrobe
10 years ago

Well, yeah, Beth, obviously. 🙂

Molly Ren
10 years ago

You know what’s funny? You try to come off as bacon and bacon, but in fact, I actually used to think like you when I was younger and bacon. I bought into all the “men are bacon, men are natural bacon” crap spouted by feminist bacon and their neutered mangina bacon. I was concerned about not coming off as bacon or creepy. I was courteous and bacon and bacon, I respected women, but I forgot to respect bacon. And while the bacon boys, playa gangstas, and abusive bacon bags were baconing around town with an “I take what I want” attitude and a new bacon on their bacon every week, I was hearing “Wow, you’re a great bacon, but I like you as a bacon. Well, see you later, gotta go have bacon with the bacon boyfriend I’ve been complaining to bacon about!”

Sometimes I just can’t help myself.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Ion Yours is not the prevailing attitude, though, in my real-world experience.

Which, as previously explained, says more about you than anything else.

Ion
Ion
10 years ago

Actually, yeah. By the way, if cutting out words from that post is what you consider humor, I wouldn’t go looking for a job at SNL anytime soon…

That’s ok, though, we can’t expect everyone to have a real answer. Some people are content to sit on the sidelines and jeer.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

You’re right, Ion, we are making fun of you. But you’ve made it so damn easy and you take your worldview so damn seriously! 😛

Andrea Vaughn
10 years ago

“Ion, have you ever talked to someone female who was fat, shy, queer, or non-malicious about their dating experiences?”

BINGO! I try to point this out to MRA-ers but they never buy it. Further, I point out that in their common scenario in which the man approaches the woman, the man has CHOSEN what woman he wants to approach based on her attractiveness. If he is not attracted to a particular woman he simply never approaches her at all. Both people in this scenario have an equal right to refusal.

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