Here, found on Men’s Rights Reddit, is a “demotivational” poster that illustrates just why Rebecca Watson’s comments about that now-famous elevator incident, and the ensuing discussions that erupted amongst feminists online (and here, in our longest thread ever), were actually, you know, necessary: whoever made this evidently thinks that the very notion that a RAPIST would ask someone out for coffee first is so inherently and self-evidently hilarious that you don’t even have to explain why it’s so hilarious.
Never mind that, er, rapists often DO invite their future victims out for coffee, to the movies, out for a kebab, etc, etc first. Never mind that if some hypothetical woman had accepted a 4 AM “coffee in my room” invite and been raped, many of the very same guys now ranting about how she’s calling all men rapists would be blaming her for being a “slut” who “was asking for it” by agreeing to said “coffee” date.
(And I’ll just note that Watson did not in fact accuse her admirer in the elevator of being a rapist or even a creep; she simply mentioned that propositioning someone in an elevator at 4 AM is a creepy thing to do.)
And yes, that is Richard Dawkins in the picture. I’m not sure why someone who presumably agrees with what Dawkins said about the case would want to feature him in a poster next to the word “rapists,” but what do I know? In any case, Dawkins is now being hailed as a hero by more than a few of the regulars in the Men’s Rights subreddit — not for his scientific work, or his science writings, or even his atheist activism, but for his douchebaggery towards Watson. The Flying Spaghetti Monster works in mysterious ways, I guess.
Speaking of which — the mysterious ways thing, I mean — can anyone explain the logic behind this comment to me?
Specifically, could you explain the bit about “smack[ing] the shit out of” feminists who’ve stood up for Rebecca Watson? It seems to me that if you’re trying to make the point that Watson and her supporters are reacting hysterically to an innocent invitation to coffee, and that women have no reason to be fearful or concerned or even just mildly creeped out by men propositioning them in elevators at 4 am, it does not exactly help your case to talk about doing physical harm to feminists (or children, for that matter). Doesn’t that suggest, rather, that women should be concerned about strange men in elevators — because of the off chance that one of these strange men could turn out to be, you know, the sort of dude who posts shit like that on the internet?
It stems from the idea that if you have a hysterical person (woman) the fastest way to get them to calm down is to slap them.
Never made much sense to me but that is something in plenty of old timey movies.
See, a rapist doesn’t offer coffee, they only jump out of the bushes. Men, who are not in any way rapists, offer coffee and accept sex in return for their largess.
Yeah, Dawkins is refusing to look at the mote in his own eye while pointing to the log in another’s.
Which is stupid.
Point out someone else *IS MUCH WORSE* doesn’t make being cornered in an elevator ar 4 am any better.
So, yes, Dawkins is an ass for failing to recognize that the reason that there aren’t more women at atheist/skeptics meetins is because they are creeped out by the men who attend atheist/skeptics events.
No, genital mutilation and oppression in other countries, isn’t right either. As a scientist Dawkins should know that “But they’re worse!” isn’t a valid argument.
“can anyone explain the logic . . .”
You’re kidding, right?
The thing is that this would have gone away with barely a peep except in a few atheist and sceptical blogs if Richard Dawkins just kept his privileged mouth shut. The initial overreaction was his (at least, the original famous person overreaction, a whole bunch of Dudez were already overreacting).
Yet the Dudez keep accusing us of hysterical overreaction. Pot, meet kettle.
I dunno maybe it’s just me but I XDed at that poster.. I know it’s supposed to I guess make fun of Watson and her supporters (I guess? o_O) like “this is what you believe!” but… I think it’s just the way it’s made and everything imposed together w/ all the context (and as you said, yes, rapists CAN invite you over to coffee, even tho in this case she did not say “he’s a rapist! he tried to!”) there’s an absurdist element that just makes me giggle and not be offended reading it xD but that’s just me :3
Yeah but it doesn’t seem to work…
and that women have no reason to be fearful or concerned or even just mildly creeped out by men propositioning them in elevators at 4 am
Is being alone in an elevator at 4 am
(A) with a man who speaks no word
so much better than
(B) with a man who is proposing to you?
You can be sure about (B) that he has at least no plan to rape you right now in the elevator and asking you for “coffee” is also a signal that he wants consensual sex. So imho less creepy than (A).
Would you calm down if someone slapped you Ion? Because we can test it if you want…
Also Marc, actually a quiet man who does not speak to me is less of a concern then the one who does ask me to coffee in his hotel room because he leaves me alone. If he follows me-possibly. I know my alertness goes way up if he does.
How are you in any position to determine what is and isn’t creepy to women, Marc?
You can be sure about (B) that he has at least no plan to rape you right now in the elevator and asking you for “coffee” is also a signal that he wants consensual sex. So imho less creepy than (A).
Really, Marc? I can be sure of that? He could be an MRA who will take a polite “no” as a “hate crime” and rape me right there in the elevator as payback for refusing to do it consensually. Also, your suggestion that men who ride elevators at 4 a.m. divide into 2 categories — those who rape now versus those who rape later? Not sure what you are saying there. That women interpret silence on the part of a man in an elevator as an indication that he is about to rape? It’s nonsensical. So yes, call me crazy, but if I am in an elevator at 4 am, I am more comfortable with a man who doesn’t say anything or says something about the weather, or something, instead of propositioning. Also, if a man propositions, it should preferably be done in a space that’s not as confined as an elevator, so that after I say “no”, I don’t remain trapped in a box with a stranger who may or may not feel stung and insulted by the rejection.
Would you calm down if someone slapped you Ion? Because we can test it if you want…
It was a joke based on that Airplane scene, oh humorless and perpetually-offended one. But as for your statement… you’re welcome to try anytime.
BTW, found a nice quote on that Reddit which says this better than I could:
The really interesting angle here, that I haven’t heard anyone else bring up, is the massive amount of female privilege that SkepChick is wielding seemingly without even realizing it. Consider this post she made on her blog last year:
She actually celebrates the sexual atmosphere of these conferences. What’s different about the above story and the elevator story? The difference is, she didn’t find the guy in the elevator attractive. If she had found him attractive, then she would have fucked his brains out and made another post to her blog like the one I just quoted.
That’s the enormous female privilege going on here. “If I find you attractive then, hooray!! I’m a powerful independent woman in charge of my own body and sex is great! We aren’t like those stupid christians who think sex is dirty! You go girl!
However, if I don’t find you attractive then WTF! HOW DARE YOU talk to me! You are creepy! You should know better! I’m going to humiliate you on the internet”
Agreed 100%.
Yes.
This has been another issue of “Simple Answers to Clueless Chumps”
Refusing to have sex with someone is a “privilege” and not a right. But only if you’re female. Got it.
“Is being alone in an elevator at 4 am
(A) with a man who speaks no word
so much better than
(B) with a man who is proposing to you?
You can be sure about (B) that he has at least no plan to rape you right now in the elevator and asking you for “coffee” is also a signal that he wants consensual sex. So imho less creepy than (A).”
Personally, at 4 am, I’d wait for the next elevator. But now you’re going to cry that I automatically think all men are rapists.
No. No she doesn’t. She expresses her *own* thoughts and fantasies that she had during a particular panel. And appropriately *keeps the to herself* until it was an appropriate moment (i.e. her own blog)
The fact that you can’t recognize appropriate venue vs. inappropriate says more about you than Rebecca.
The privilege consists in sitting back and waiting for men to make the first move, as society tells them and they are conditioned to do, accepting the ones you want and rejecting/humiliating the ones you don’t. The vast majority of men don’t have anything like that.
“The difference is, she didn’t find the guy in the elevator attractive. If she had found him attractive, then she would have fucked his brains out and made another post to her blog like the one I just quoted.”
Ion just won’t let this go.
I know, I quoted it because it reminded me of the very first thing I said in this thread. Looks like I’m not the only one, by a longshot.
*er, that would be the other elevator thread. But it’s amusing that people are replying to the quote as though I wrote it. Attention span of a gnat.
Ion just won’t let this go.
Neither will you, apparently.
Ion, have you ever talked to someone female who was fat, shy, queer, or non-malicious about their dating experiences?
You think it’s impossible to be creeped out by people you initially find attractive? Dude, I had a group project in a poli sci class a few years ago where I had my group over at my apartment. There were about 4 of us, 5 including me, 3 guys 2 girls. One of the guys I did think was cute. Until I went to get something off the desk in my room, he followed me in there, and cornered me. No longer cute. And I’ve had plenty of physically attractive men say/do inappropriate, creepy things that made me uncomfortable. I told them to go away, and thus did not fuck them, or their brains out.
I feel like I/we shouldn’t have to say this so many times, but I have been wrong before.
“Ion just won’t let this go.
“Neither will you, apparently.”
I’m easily amused.
Ion, have you ever talked to someone female who was fat, shy, queer, or non-malicious about their dating experiences?
Your point being?