So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
ZRM vanished before I started making the cards :
It’s all part of the very complex and subtle plan for the Zombocalypse. Sometimes I have trouble keeping track myself.
I find something interesting tho… we have no info about any details.. how he said what he said, who he is, what he looks like etc.. but what if she said she went w/ him and had sex? o_O Would MRAL assume he was a hot alpha guy? Would he then get angry about how easily hot alpha guys get women? o_O Is whether you’re an alpha or omega (again we have NO Idea nething about him) purely if women LIKE the guy? o_O
But a bigger point… if it was about the SPECIFIC type of guy (ugly, etc) wouldn’t she say “look UGLY guys, don’t hit on women”? B/c if she WANTS hot guys to hit on her why would she say she doesn’t like it at all? o_O She’d be discouraging ALL guys when she (apparently) sekritly wants CERTAIN guys…
right? o_O (it’s hard to follow when ppl are telling me how my entire gender, and therefore me, think.. xD )
Yay he’s back! 😀
@Elizabeth:
When Ion decreed it so. Or was it Roissy that did so?
Does Ion have a card?
Does he even merit a card? If he gets one, it should be a creature that is both insubstantial and forgettable–like a ghost that causes amnesia. (Of course, then Amnesia wouldn’t have a unique special power 🙁 ). Also, his allegiances should be unclear, as he denies being an MRA and claims to be detached and above it all. He should only be a 2/2 at most.
Just my two cents. Ami’s free to work her magic, as it were, however she likes. 🙂
@Simone Lovelace… “All men should wish to avoid making women uncomfortable. Therefore, no men should do what elevator dude did.”
Oh yes delicate princess, that very thought should consume a mans every waking thought. Because I’m sure that’s what consumes womens thoughts, a mans comfort.
@KristinMH… “Because just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean that you don’t think that you’re entitlted to women’s time, attention, and bodies.”
A mans attention should be given at HER command, not when you feel like it. Your feelings are little more than an animals instinct.
@PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth… “I find men trying to proposition me at 4 in the morning amusing. Of course if 13 is asking me the laughing is more like flirty giggles then “oh my god, really? hahahahah!”
Women demand the “right” to never feel uncomfortable in any way, while reserving the right to laugh in a mans face. Maybe thats why he waited to be alone, so he wouldn’t be humiliated in public.
@Molly Ren…”Seriously, tho, she does add “don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner”
Aww, the poor dear, out drinking all night, flirting like a $5 hooker doesn’t want men to sexualize her. How can men think like that?
@MissPrism… “And do stop pretending that “come to my hotel room for coffee” isn’t likely to be taken as a sexual proposition.”
Alert the media, a man wants to have sex with a woman. Something not heard of in 5000 years.
@Comrade Svilova… “Seriously, though, the major point is that maybe this guy could have had a chance”
A chance to bask in the presence of one of the glorified. He asked sooo little.
@Joanna… “A stranger offering me coffee in his hotel room is no different than a stranger offering me candy in his van.”
Evil men with their wicked ways stalking women to instll fear and horror.
@Plymouth… “Geez, since when is “creepy” the worlds greatest insult”
It’s impossible for women to insult men, they’re just too perfect.
@FedUpVT… “How DARE this woman tell us enlightened men how to behave! It’s an infringement on my First Amendment Penis!”
Mens ego’s are so easily bruised. Man up. pig, and stop insulting women.
@hellkell… “So yeah, if I get approached pre-dawn, I might be more than a bit leery. I suppose according to some, I should just be grateful for the attention. *giant fucking eyeroll to that*”
Men are scary and evil. Stupid men, women don’t ever want YOUR attention. Big ole eyeroll in you face.
@Magical Laura… “I feel like guys who are dicks about women’s appearence are kinda bizarre. I fancy fat guys and skinny guys and all the rest, I can’t imagine restricting my imagination to just Brad Pitt and his ilk!”
Any feeling a woman has is paramount. Guys are dicks. full stop.
@Holly Pervocracy… “She just said this made her uncomfortable. So if you don’t want to make women uncomfortable, maybe don’t do this.”
Men should go thru a checklist so ensure they never make a woman feel uncomfortable. Women aren’t put on this planet for a mans comfort, thats your male privilege you’ve become accustomed to.
@sarahejones… “Even the request itself reeks of privilege. Of course it didn’t occur to him that she might be concerned for her personal safety alone.”
The audacity of the privileged male. He should have trained himself to instantly noticed her unease and ran in the other direction.
What a piece of shit is the modern day woman, slutwalking about like a back alley whore yet the delicate snowflake melts, screaming like a spoilt child if she “feels” in anyway slighted. She damands respect, love and affection at all times while offering only to bask in her self delusional perfection. Every word that falls from her painted lips must be held in the deepest reverence. A mans disagreement shocks her delicate sensibilites as a foul diatribe is vomited forth.
Be sure to moderate this Dave, lest these frail flowers wilt underneath my harsh words.
Hellkell, I think Watson’s best option would have been to pull out a Big Fucking Gun and get all Zoe Washburne on the guy’s ass. That’s what Ion is looking for here.
Also we have no idea about THE GUY here o_O Is HE upset? Has he NEVER had sex before? some ppl seem to be assuming he’s ALWAYS being rejected… again, why is Skepchick being treated as the every woman? o_O ppl seem to be acting as if this is the only encounter Skepchick AND this guy have ever had in their lives o_O (and in some cases like the only encounter any woman and any men have ever had in human history xD)
I was thinking that he could be some kind of swarmy neutral third party guy who tries to avoid being seen as a MRA supporter for his own nasty reasons.
Johnny Pez, that sounds like science fiction!
And he has the power to silence women or would if he was any good at it but really not very good.
Also, I suggested an Ion card in another thread: “Every day Ion the Scornful travels to the agora to mock the people who travel to the agora.”
“Dear, we live on a spaceship.”
Actually I just thought of who he could be considered-Gollum.
And he caught it! 🙂 The husband and I did our best impersonation of the cats on the 4th and watched the FF marathon.
From the stuff he posts here, I doubt Ion could really be a disinterested third party. Could you imagine him going over to the spearhead or something and start preaching about how women really are being mistreated, and you all are just whining about losing the edge you had over them?
Ami, we do know the context. Watson just finished giving a talk about sexism in the movement, and about her own experiences with increasing unwanted attention at conferences. She finished up by basically saying “please don’t hit on me”. What is known about Elevator Guy is that he was in a position to have heard this talk, but still asked her for coffee in his room.
Actually, Ion’s more like herpes. He flares up occasionally, but never goes away.
Rebecca Watson should have a card. Make her a telepath.
Dear Ion,
I thought feminazis were like unicorns and leprechauns: mythical beasts that don’t exist in reality.
Have you ever seen a feminazi in real life? What is a feminazi anyway? A feminist who advocates using gas ovens to kill most men? A woman who thinks the third reich’s only mistake was their rabid opposition to abortion, at least for Aryan women? What? Do you have photographic evidence of the existence of feminazis? Or maybe a screen cap of a piece of writing by one of them?
I hope you will help me understand by answering my very sincere questions.
Sincerely,
Sally
So NWOslave is back, but still on moderation. He wrote a long and very NWOslavey comment which I just freed from moderation; go back a page, and you’ll find it near the bottom.
Should I go ahead and take him off moderation? I’ve been kind of missing him for the last couple of days.
Hellkell, missed the marathon, remembered the line, because I am just that good.
NWO, she had just given a speech about sexism. And how uncomfortable she feels about being hit on. This dude attended the conference and hit on her anyway. This, I believe, qualifies him as a rampant douchehound. He didn’t need to be telepathic, he needed to listen. And care.
You are, you are, Mr. Pez!
*reads NWOaf’s screech* Sure you have a point if the guy had asked me to go to coffee with him at a coffee shop and not his hotel room at 4 AM.
I should be polite when the guy does not ask for something that could put me in danger when turning him down. Not when he is asking me to go to some hotel room in a strange city.
David, I say let Ami decide. After all, she is his nemesis.