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Two atheists get in an elevator

So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:

Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?

Then Richard Dawkins says,

Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:

Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.

Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?

In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)

The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing.  Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.

The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were.  Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):

So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’

Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.

That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:

What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?

Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies.  She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning.  Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.

Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist  pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.

Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:

I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”

In a followup post, she noted:

When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.

And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.

Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.

They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.

And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:

I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

She didn’t shut up.

So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.

Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.

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PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

When Ion decreed it so. Or was it Roissy that did so?

Does Ion have a card?

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
13 years ago

The thing about taking one sentence out of context and ignoring the rest?

When astronauts look down at Earth, they see two things – the Great Wall of China, and your bias.

o_O

…BWAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHahahahaha hahahahahahaha!!!

Dude, your irony is showing. 😀

Molly Ren
13 years ago

“Seriously. I mean, Ted Bundy was pretty cute *shudder*.

“Wasn’t he also getting love letters from women while he was in prison?”

Ion, you say that like it’s a good thing. o.O

Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

I’m starting to think that what Ion and his ilk really want (well, besides to argue with anything David posts, even if it’s kittens or “sun to rise in the east tomorrow,”) isn’t for SkepChick to have worded her complaint more gently. It isn’t even for her to have kept her mouth shut.

They want her to have fucked the guy.

Tell me if I’m wrong, Ion and anyone else on the MRA side–would anything less really satisfy?

Johnny Pez
13 years ago

Sight correction, kirbywarp. Ion’s derail was in fact the very first comment. Poor thread never had a chance.

So, giant trans spider robots. Any other requests?

sarahejones
13 years ago

No, MRAL, but it does say a lot for the power of stupidity.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Bill Hicks on Ted Bundy:

Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

Magical Laura
13 years ago

“Wasn’t he also getting love letters from women while he was in prison?”

Of course. You’re so right. He wasn’t creepy at all. You guys should all follow his example, if you’re under 6ft we’ll only fuck you if you’re a serial killer.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

Holy WTF o_o;;

Wow… ok.. first off, I think the reactions by Dawkins et al are pretty defensive and over-reacting.. and as usual “you aren’t as suffering as much as you COULD be!” I mean -_-;; So then we can tell the poor offended guys “it could be worse, she could have accused him of rape!” right? Since guys bring it up (like in this thread xD), should we be comparing everythiing to that? “So she called you creepy, jeez, she could have accused you of RAPE!” -_-

I also dunno the details.. did she name names? o_O Like did she out his name and say “that dude is CREEPY” or did she just say some guy approached her and it was creepy? o_O apparently women shouldn’t talk anonymously about encounters they have had that bother them now? o_O

Like I feel like this is going in circles… ppl think PZ is saying that men should be mind readers.. but then the response is basically saying that WOMEN should be too.. how do we know he’s asking for sex? he could be honestly asking about coffee… or maybe he had no ill intent! so.. yeah… I agree.. men can’t be mind readers.. but at the same time, neither can WOMEN..

I’m just confused -_-;; Honestly, I wish guys who approach me phrased it more like that, but that’s me, and that’s also my exp… this clearly bothered her, and she said it did (and as far as I can tell didn’t say “MEN SHOULD BE BANNED FROM DOING THIS” or nething, she gave advice, which nobody has to take, and said how it made her feel.. a LOT of other women feel like her… but so… what’s the solution? Like is the problem that she shouldn’t THINK these things? or that she shouldn’t talk about them or…? i’m just kinda wondering what her critics want? she didn’t even name him… is she not allowed to say that random guys make her feel uncomfortable?

I dun mind ppl criticizing her.. but then they can be criticized too…and it’s just… kinda weird the reaction to her : can no woman ever talk about how she feels creeped out w/o it becoming this “all women do this and you know that if he was hot she wouldn’t and blah blah”… can’t she just speak to her feelings? o_O

From what ppl say she said, it’s as tame as what HE said… why is this a big deal? o_O

Arks
Arks
13 years ago

Why would you drink coffee at 4am? Even if I drink it after 8pm, I have trouble getting to sleep. I think she rejected him because her evo-psych cavewoman vagina knew he’d only give her dumb baby genes.

zombie rotten mcdonald
13 years ago

Go nuts.

judging from some of the comments, you are a bit late with this recommendation.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

Holly Pervocracy | July 6, 2011 at 7:53 pm
I’m starting to think that what Ion and his ilk really want (well, besides to argue with anything David posts, even if it’s kittens or “sun to rise in the east tomorrow,”) isn’t for SkepChick to have worded her complaint more gently. It isn’t even for her to have kept her mouth shut.

They want her to have fucked the guy.

Tell me if I’m wrong, Ion and anyone else on the MRA side–would anything less really satisfy?

I’m wondering about that… what do ppl want her to do? It seems from reading the argument, that it’s not even just that she shouldn’t SAY things, it’s that she should change her thoughts o_O Esp the comments from MRAL… she represents all women, and she needs to prove that all women aren’t alpha-seeking hos by sleeping w/ him o_O

Like suddenly this ONE thing has become not just an example, but like a battleground… she didn’t want to go to his room, this means something about ALL women, and it means that OBJECTIVELY she was incorrect (she should have considered what ppl in other countries were going thru) and .. I dunno.. what? o_O

I mean I get that ppl can feel however they want about her, but it seems like this is becoming some “battle to end all battles”.. hold the line boys!

I just kinda wonder.. what should she have done and why? o_O

Comrade Svilova
Comrade Svilova
13 years ago

Like is the problem that she shouldn’t THINK these things?

I believe so. She shouldn’t have found his behavior creepy. Even if (like many women) she had reason to be cautious when alone, isolated, with a strange man, in the middle of the night.

Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

What’s really lame about claiming that she’s expecting men to read women’s minds is that she is saying this specifically so that men don’t have to read her mind. She’s saying: “don’t do this, it creeps women out.” Women by-and-large seem to be agreeing with her on this.

A decent person who doesn’t want to creep other people out will file this information away under “good to know” and act accordingly. A dickhead will whine about being required to “read a woman’s mind” and being “all but accused of rape” when in fact all they are doing is receiving useful feedback. You’re free to ignore this feedback, but you do so at the risk of being thought a creep.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

Honestly, I think there’s a rly interesting discussion to have here about what it’s like being a woman in a community or field dominated by men, and how this might have had something to do w/ her reaction (and that doesn’t mean it’s FAIR to any random guy who approaches her….does it affect how men and women interact, should men or women or both be aware or etc etc etc) … and other such issues… but I dun think we can have this discussion right now w/ a couple ppl here who have other agendas :

zombie rotten mcdonald
13 years ago

So, giant trans spider robots. Any other requests?

ZOMBIES.

i mean, duh.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
13 years ago

@Ami:

We’d probably need women who are active in the skeptical community… and probably men as well… (I’m not very active) If everyone played straight though, I think the trolls would get bored and leave. Its happened before. *hopeful face*

Now if only Watson would magically show up here… I can’t help but think it would be a terrible idea though…

Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

They want her to have fucked the guy.

Tell me if I’m wrong, Ion and anyone else on the MRA side–would anything less really satisfy?

And then she would have been a ‘ho and a skank. I don’t think she could have won no matter what she did.

Johnny Pez
13 years ago

Ami, are there any zombie cards? I’m starting to lose track.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

I think Kirby has it down here… and about what the real issue here (unless of course the real issue isn’t the RESPONSE to her, but about her thinking he’s creepy? IS that the real issue? o_O Somebody should read MY blog… I quote ppl (anonymously) who creep me out… go condemn me! xD why am I not a representative of all womankind but she is? o_O )

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

I have made none so far… ZRM vanished before I started making the cards :

hellkell
hellkell
13 years ago

What Holly said, should she have fucked theguy? Any of us who have been propositioned/approached/catcalled/whatever, should we have just sucked it up, and started sucking? I’ve lost the rule book, apparently.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

@Kirby well it doesn’t have to be THAT particular comm, but it would certainly help (I know some but they are not here xD ) I def have an idea from the comms I’m involved, esp when I was a semi-big name in female comics blogdom xD

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