So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Alex, there you go trying to apply earth logic again! *offers you a nice refreshing drink of red kool aid*
The problem here is atheism itself. Men acting immoral because they do not have God in their lives and women creating a false idol out of feminism, which has become their goddess. As decreed by God, men must take charge. Thus it is men whom I now implore. Do not treat wayward women with such harshness, no. Rather it is through gentleness that women will seek love once again. When she shouts and screams and behaves in an otherwise unruly manner, simply exercise patience. Speak gently to her until her hysteria dies down. Remind her of her duties to you, to your children. You see, Eve was only tempted by the serpent because Adam was not there to guide her. And if he was, would she have obeyed him had he taken such harsh words to her as so many of you do with the gentle ladies here? No, my good sirs, no. We must resist feminism with gentleness. Deep down, women wish for men to take care of things for them, and that is what we must do. Should we antagonize them, it shall drive them away. It is thus by God that we must forgive them for their unruly behaviour, and by His eternal kindness we must love them back to God and to Christ.
To all atheists, I pray for you.
Enraging personal anecdote here: a number of women graduate students started coming to me after a new hire to tell me how he was making sexually harassing and misogynistic comments in class.
They were all too frightened to make a complaint. I understand why.
When I went to talk to Official Superiors, the two men’s response was “aren’t you just saying that because you’re a feminist?”
Alas that I was not at that time in a position (i.e. tenured) to reply by saying “aren’t you just asking me that because you’re a sexist.”
No point now because they got bounced after program review showed all sorts of Bad Things going on under their administration….
It took years, and OTHER issues, but Dr. Sexist was eventually bounced as well.
But I want blue koolaid!!!
@Ithiliana Aw. I’m sorry you’ve seen it before. But as it’s part of the blogosphere I wasn’t sure you had.
Also, yay for them getting bounced eventually. Shame it took so long :-/
Urg…Damned gravatar. How’s this shit work again? lol I don’t know what I did…
Anyway, @ithiliana,
But I want blue koolaid!!!
Gaah!!! David, feel free to delete the other two…
@ithiliana,
But I want blue koolaid!
@Alex (I’m so not used to the @ first! must learn conventions):
**turns back to you, fiddles around with magical mystery pills, turns around beaming and offers you a lovely big class of BLUE kool aid!**
**innocent smile**
Gotta reach 2000!
SO here’s a question: I drank Kool Aid a lot as a kid (Kool Ade?). Whatever.
How many of you all drank KA when you were growing up?
I still occasionally have to stifle the impulse to buy a packet and make a big cool pitcher with a smily face on it, ahahahha.
And, if you didn’t live someplace where KA was available (I have no idea how widely spread the corporate tentacles are), was there an equivalent sugary drink that you could buy and make up rather than buy in cans/bottles?
@Nobby: No problem–always better to link just in case. I do read some feminist blogs, and her “wolf pack” game post I think was linked on just about every one I read–so I made a LJ feed so I could read her blog in my JOURNAL1!!
I never did. And I still don’t really like the taste. Blame my parents :-p
Actually, I apparently had a subtle reaction to artifical colors, they would make me incredibly hyper (at least, so say my parents. But they still maintain that wasn’t a ruse :-p). So there were many things of such nature I didn’t have as a kid. Like almost any of the typical kid’s cereals; lucky charms, fruit loops, heck just pretty much all of them (artificial ‘Carmel’ color is freaking everywhere) were off limits. Along with many other things.
Nobby: That’s a bummer, but also probably a good thing. My mom resisted a lot of that sort of thing–I still remember being pretty young when they started advertising aimed at kids, and pushing WonderBread (12 vitamns and minerals)! I was asking for it one day while helping her shop, and she picked up a local baker’s loaf and told me it had 13!! vitamins and minerals!
I sometimes wonder just how much Red Dye #2 I consumed back in the day….
My favorite was GREEN Kool aid though.
And green jello.
*looks at time**
**gets back on SOAPBOX**
OK, people, I have to go to bed. But I expect to see at least *500* more posts here when I check in tomorrow.
Trolls, front and center!
*salutes valiant band of manboozers*
Have a good night, y’all!
*hop off soapbox*
@ithiliana,
Yay! *drinks happily*
Uhhh, my stomach feels weird…
I used Kool Aid to dye my hair as a pre-teen.
@Nobby –
I had a bad reaction to artificial caramel coloring as a kid, too. It didn’t make me nauseated though, just kind of ill. I was the only person I knew who actually liked Crystal Pepsi. 🙂
@NWO:
“Please don’t say, “I could’ve been in danger,” or “some stat says x amount of assaults happen.” I could be run over by a car, I could win the lotto, my house could burn down.”
Interesting that stats don’t matter here. Weren’t you the one who says that stats did matter back when you were ranting about homosexuality and pedophilia? Like… Homosexuals were more likely to rape kids, so they shouldn’t be parents? Do stats matter or not?
My mom was a health nut who would never buy something as fake and sugary as kool aid… but I drank it as my friends houses 🙂
I miss Pink Swimmingo-it tasted just like lollidrops.
And did anyone else have Otter Pops as a kid?
Marc, if you do show up to the forum, I’m actually a mod there and there are different rules also… xD you can’t derail or be dishonest… or turn discussions into something they’re not, etc :]
where’s the rule that “you can’t be dishonest”? Quote it, please!
and what’s the definition of being dishonest…, mmh?
If nwoslave posts something like “yeah, you all convinced me, feminism is great” will you ban him? He might have just changed his mind…
btw: If you don’t want me in your forum (that had already massive downtimes) with your extremly restrictive rules, that’s not my problem. I couldn’t care any less, really.
And you shouldn’t always try to figure me out, you’ll get it wrong anyway. But if you absolutely can’t resist, analyze the line above… I wrote it just for you, for this purpose <3
Just when you said you were never going to read anyone’s comments you were lying.
You’re just too gullible, you spoil the fun…
@ithiliana: that reminds me, maybe our trolls should be made to read this before posting:
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
It’s ok, this guide, I know it for a long time, except the “On the internet” section sucks.
(when Wiley Publishing sees that, she’ll get sued 😀 )
I guess it’s too much work have a shtick that’s more original than “I’m ever so much smarter than all of you that you’ll never understand me though your feeble minds can’t help but try, but it doesn’t matter because I’m above it all”. Even the “answer all of my questions so I can tell you how inadequate those answers are” routine is just done to death. You’re not a mystery wrapped in an enigma, you’re more like a snore wrapped in a yawn.
Nobby: I’m not going to pay Alot for this muffler.
The forum had downtime? Damn, I must have missed it because I was off having a life outside the internets (*gasp*).
OR MAYBE THAT WAS THE DOWNTIME! IT DOES NOT EXIST WITHOUT ME!
XD