So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Bet you don’t know how to do eye makeup properly…
I do it all the time and I think I’m very good at it (my sister is my guinea pig).
“Has anyone suggested a theory why she reacted in this way?”
You could read the thread and find out.
“Also I gave her some beauty tips, has anybody else done that?”
See previous suggestion.
I think it has to be “acts as my guinea pig”
1. Because some men are sexist asshats does not mean all men are.
2. Letting men know that something is sexist (calling it out) means it will not happen again.
3. Saudia Arabia is a dumb example of gender segregation because women have no choice in the matter. If you are a woman and fail to adhere, you will be beaten and killed.
4. What is with this presumption of innocence nonsense? Why do you assume she is lying? And if she revealed EG’s name, you would be bitching about that too.
5. It is better to use a real example of behavior that bothers women (kind of like how one should call out sexist behavior in either gender) then to just use a nebulous statement.
Gender seperation in colleges would end the campus rape problem, please mark your answer:
[ ] Yes
[X] No
If you answered no, please explain your reasons.
Segregated college campuses do not end rapes, they just reduce the chances.
Gender seperation in colleges would end the campus rape problem, please mark your answer:
[ ] Yes
[X] No
If you answered no, please explain your reasons.
If people are still allowed to socialize with the opposite gender, there will still be rapes at parties and by dates and boyfriends/girlfriends.
If people are not allowed to socialize with the opposite gender, your incidence of same-gender rape is going to go way up. (See also: prison, celibate clergy.) And the people who sneak across gender lines in defiance of the rules will also be at increased risk.
Also, “separate but equal” treatment has a really, really bad history in this country.
A theory is only necessary if you don’t already know the answer. We already know the answer. It’s been posted in this thread (I know I’ve personally posted it and am not the only one), and it’s been explained ad nauseum in a whole bunch of blogs and their comments.
Not baseless at all, and I sincerely doubt you are tired of it because you so clearly are a troll. You completely ignore the explanation given over and over again, then there’s this…
You, my friend, a troll, but tiresome in a completely different way than a troll such as NWOslave, so I guess that’s… refreshing?
@Marc:
I think, if you’re still confused about the issue, and Watson’s intentions, watching the video posted here should help you out. If that doesn’t work, there is also this quote by someone.. I forget who it was…
Like others have said, you really should read what you are supposed to be commenting on. Before, you know, you comment.
The reason Skepchick shared this story was to tell other guys that this behavior makes women uncomfortable. It’s not about putting anyone on trial–it’s about letting people know what future behavior is unlikely to get good results.
But maybe that also makes other guys uncomfortable. If a guy hears a woman telling him”Guys, don’t do that!” he has to think that she assumes he is capable of this behavior, though she has no evidence for this and he would never do such a thing.
You. Really. Can’t. Win. If you do your hair and dress nice, you get “Well, what did you expect, going out looking like that?” If you downplay your looks to avoid attention, you get “Ugly bitch, you should be glad someone paid attention to you”.
Maybe you should just dress classy and modest. Avoiding dressing too elaborately doesn’t mean you have to neglect your appearance! As dressing feminine doesn’t mean dressing slutty.
Addendum:
The interesting bit starts at about three minutes in.
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth, Again with the list of suggesting/dictating how men should act towards women.
If you unfailingly support women suggesting/dictating how men should act towards women, you must unfailingly support men suggesting/dictating how women should act towards men.
If this is what you want in the way of etiquette/manners, it is a double edged sword, it goes both ways.
If a guy hears a woman telling him”Guys, don’t do that!” he has to think that she assumes he is capable of this behavior, though she has no evidence for this and he would never do such a thing.
If you see a “no peeing in the pool” sign, do you immediately rip it down because “I DON’T PEE IN POOLS HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A POOL PEEING PERSON I AM INSULTED”? If you’re already treating women decently, then congratulations, this isn’t about you.
Maybe you should just dress classy and modest.
Maybe people should be decent to women even if they’re wearing chickens on their heads.
Either way we’re telling a huge group of people what to do, so I’d rather go with the demand that includes more freedom.
@Marc:
“But maybe that also makes other guys uncomfortable. If a guy hears a woman telling him”Guys, don’t do that!” he has to think that she assumes he is capable of this behavior, though she has no evidence for this and he would never do such a thing.”
By that logic, nobody should tell you “its wrong to steal.” Its offensive, and it may hurt your sensibilities by insinuating that you might be able to steal something. I mean really, your logic is absolutely impeccable.
On a more serious note, if someone is being offensive without realizing it, should you explain to them how they are being offensive, or put their right to feel good about making offensive remarks over your desire to not hear them? I honestly want to hear your answer.
NWO – If you unfailingly support women suggesting/dictating how men should act towards women, you must unfailingly support men suggesting/dictating how women should act towards men.
I sorta do, within certain bounds. I’m fine with men saying that they don’t want to be cornered and aggressively propositioned by women, for instance. And I don’t think women should sneak up on men in dark parking lots no matter how pure their intentions.
There’s just about nothing I’d ask men to do that I wouldn’t ask women to do.
Don’t worry guys, as soon as NWO realizes I’m here, he’ll bolt again. I may not even have to put a little “@NWO” above my comment for it!
Holly Pervocracy
If men say we find slutwalks uncouth, and they make us uncomfortable, you cannot have them.
Unless you go by the motto, do as I say not as I do.
If men say we find slutwalks uncouth, and they make us uncomfortable, you cannot have them.
Okay. But then we get to tell men that we decide what they get to wear in public (we don’t say explictly, they gotta kinda guess, and not all women are going to judge it the same anyway), and if they guess wrong then they get a world of shit and crimes against them aren’t really considered crimes.
Yeah, I don’t think you really want to take stuff in that direction, NWO.
(OH GOD WHY AM I RESPONDING TO NWO SOMEONE PLEASE SLAP ME.)
(NOT YOU, NWO.)
@NWO:
“If men say we find slutwalks uncouth, and they make us uncomfortable, you cannot have them.”
Its statements like this that make me say you love blissfully steam-rolling over nuance. Slutwalks are not the same as creepy propositions in an elevator at 4am. At all. The most obvious way being that slutwalks are not actively directed towards the men who find it “uncouth.” Women are not cornering men in dark allies and waving their bits around in the men’s faces. If they were, maybe you’d have a point.
But of course, men acting creepy towards women is an action directed at women. Hence women saying “please don’t do that,” with the unsaid implication “to me.”
@Holly:
(IS IT SOMETHING TO BE AFRAID OF OH GOD I NEVER REALIZED HOLD ME IM SCARED)
A theory is only necessary if you don’t already know the answer. We already know the answer. It’s been posted in this thread (I know I’ve personally posted it and am not the only one), and it’s been explained ad nauseum in a whole bunch of blogs and their comments.
I’m sorry, if I’ve overlooked that, but where was it explained can you post a link?
But Rachel’s statements don’t count, because who knows if she’s honest? Who knows if that’s really what’s going on in her head? Maybe she really WAS flattered by this guy’s approaches but doesn’t want to admit it to herself?
Not baseless at all, and I sincerely doubt you are tired of it because you so clearly are a troll. You completely ignore the explanation given over and over again, then there’s this…
Where have I ignored “the” explanation?
“The” explanation?
Like others have said, you really should read what you are supposed to be commenting on. Before, you know, you comment.
Yes, I’ve already read that, I’m sorry, I don’t know how I’ve failed to include that in my reasoning…
You, my friend, a troll, but tiresome in a completely different way than a troll such as NWOslave, so I guess that’s… refreshing?
Is NWOslave a troll? I never thought of him as one…
Are all MRAs trolls?
(I think Pecunium is a troll…)
But as you offended me so much, I don’t think I can post here any longer. No, I don’t think that, I’m sure of it. With people as hostile as you, who think so badly about me, trying to lecture me and so on, always trying to paint me in a bad light, I will not come here again, I will go now and not come back, so it’s your choice to reply to my posts, I won’t read them anyway. Good night.
Also I think what’s missing here is that ppl CAN still proposition her or any other woman in an elevator at 4am -_-;; her saying it bugs her or suggesting not to do it can be completely ignored if ppl want xD My existence upsets ppl, they suggest (dictate apparently means the same thing as suggest now xD ) all sorts of things for me notto do… I suggest they mind their own business, they do not take my suggestion, I don’t take theirs xD the world is still around as far as I checked xD
Really Marc?
“But Rachel’s statements don’t count, because who knows if she’s honest? Who knows if that’s really what’s going on in her head? Maybe she really WAS flattered by this guy’s approaches but doesn’t want to admit it to herself?”
So, you want somebody to tell you exactly what happened, but we can’t give you the statement of somebody who was actually there… because they might be lying? Are you saying the only way to prove what happened is to use the hotel security video? But… that could have been doctored! Somebody quick, invent a time machine so Marc can go back in time and witness the event for himself.
Then he’ll be alone in the elevator with Watson. And then he’ll realize what he must do.
Holly Pervocracy
You see, it’s a big joke to you.
I mean you want acceptance of women telling men how to act so “they” will always feel comfortable around men.
Yet you won’t accept men telling women how they should act so “men” will always feel comfortable around women.
Don’t you see something wrong with that?
Marc – There are two definitions of “troll” that are relevant here:
1. Someone who goes on a website to announce that they disagree with the entire premise of the website. Posting “CATS SUCK THEY ARE STUPID ANIMALS” on a cat forum, because you’re a rabid dog partisan.
2. Someone who posts inflammatory things they don’t actually believe, just to get a rise out of people. Posting “CATS SUCK THEY ARE STUPID ANIMALS” on a cat forum, not because you actually have anything against cats, but just because you want the cat people to get upset and pay attention to you.
You’re definitely a Type 1, at least. And the jury is out on Type 2, frankly.
NWO – I mean you want acceptance of women telling men how to act so “they” will always feel comfortable around men.
Yet you won’t accept men telling women how they should act so “men” will always feel comfortable around women.
Don’t you see something wrong with that?
The real problem with your example, NWO, was that you compared a *real* thing that bothers women to a *hypothetical* thing that could bother some hypothetical unreasonable man.
I think women have the right to demand “men shouldn’t proposition strangers in a threatening way.” I don’t think women have the right to demand “men should all do the Chicken Dance on the hour.”
It’s a matter of which demands are reasonable, not of which gender is making them.