So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Just a little note: Due to a little mixup on my part, I posted a post announcing that the manboobz forum is up. This post was supposed to go up about 10 hours from now. Oops. So I kind of spoiled my big surprise. Since I’ve set up the forum so that I have to approve new members, it sort of doesn’t make sense for it to go up right now, since I am about to hit the sack.
I’ve unpublished the post.
So let’s just keep this between us for now. BIG SEEKRET!
Oh, and Darksidecat and a few others who were wondering: there is a sort of workaround for the gender issue.
I so would not pay if my vet negligently killed my pet. Then again, I have always taken pets to my mom’s vet, a guy with a solid half century of working in a rural farming area (he stopped doing large livestock a few years ago due to his age), and I can’t really imagine him letting something like that happen in his office. And we had a pit bull that liked to try to eat porcupines and had to be put under anesthetic to have quills removed from her throat on several occasions (some dogs can’t seem to get the whole “don’t bite a porcupine” thing and do it more than once, my sister has a lab-rotweiler mix now that is a porcupine biter), as well as a variety of other high risk pet needs. One of the techs cut a dog’s toe while clipping its nails and he told the owners they did not have to pay (after sterilizing and stitching the cut for free), I can’t imagine what sort of jerk kills someones pet by their own negligence and then asks the owner to pay.
My poor little rat died of a severe seizure when he was three and half (that is a senior rat), so I sympathize. I felt so guilty because I could not do anything for him but pet him and watch (he was blind from a very early age, so touching him let him know I was there). My vet told me that it had probably been an aneurism or a previously asymptomatic brain tumor and that he knew I had been taking good care of my rat (I had just been in with him a month earlier about his teeth) and that my only problem with him had been over-spoiling (I got scolded for my rat being too fat, even for his huge size, and was told to make him exercise more and give him less treats). But I felt like I had been neglecting him because I was really sick and had not been giving him as much attention as usual. Granted, this still meant two regular playtimes and feeding him baby cereals and other baby food from a spoon to make sure he ate enough food because of his teeth problems. I had him from the time he was about ten days old (my sister got him from a pet store out of pity, but, as usual for her and pets, I was the one who ended up bottle feeding him from a syringe until way past the time when he should have been weaned, which was probably why he was three times the size of most pet rats) and I was devastated. I ended up having a multi-hour screaming fight with my mother and taking the next three days off from school.
Anyway, it’s times like these that I want to make yet another list. Like, “You might be a misogynist if,” but with things that might not immediately seem obvious.
After all, like many racists and sexists, they think that only conscious bigotry is bigotry.
Great advice, since NEVER in the history of time has anyone ever used a ruse such as pretending to need assistance, let alone feigning a disability, in order to prey on the good-heartedness of others and lure them into a compromising, or even deadly, situation. I’ll bet the folks here would be hard pressed to think of one…JUST ONE…person who did that.
And woe betide the woman who heeds your “common sense” advice, as the Manosphere busies itself ripping her (and, by extension, all women) to shreds for being so utterly stupid to have not known any better.
I think I understand what the MRA trolls are saying when they mean that.
It’s basically a very poorly worded way of saying “You should be careful, but of actual bad guys, you should read our minds and know that we are Nice Guys(TM) and to do otherwise means you believe that all men are rapists.”
It’s no less stupid, but hopefully that’s more clear than their way of saying it.
Er, by “that” I mean “You shouldn’t be guarded around all strange men, but if you get raped then it’s your fault for not being guarded” that you guys have been talking about.
Caseymordred:
I think you’re exactly right. I’ve noticed a tendency in the MRA community for, whenever they discuss a news piece involving a woman who was attacked or killed by her boyfriend/husband, they tend to blame the victim. Usually goes something to the effect of, “What happened was tragic *but* she should have known better than hanging around with this unsavory character instead of nice guys like us.”
I think I understand what the MRA trolls are saying when they mean that.
Mmh… on feminist sites the word troll somehow seems to have another meaning than on the rest of the internet.
I have to admit, I’m kind of vaguely dissatisfied a lot of the time with how the Schroedinger’s Rapist concept is explained. It does not help that some folks apparently read it as “big and scary word in front of ‘rapist’”, cue howling about how they are not a rapist, are not are not ARE NOT!
I read this essay and it really gave me some ideas regarding IRL trolling like asking a woman for directions in a dark alley. Yes IRLT is dangerous, but it’s so much more rewarding…
I now saw the original video… of eh… her… why didn’t you warn me…!?!? *brrrrrrrrrrrh*
honestly, she’s so ugly, she should be happy that a guy approached her at all…
Probably it was the first time in her life, and she screw it up. Now she’s angry at herself and that’s her way to cope with it.
FEMINISTS ARE UGLY BLAR-HAR-HAR!
@Marc,
0/10. Your trolling is weak and obvious.
Ew, she has *gasp* glasses! She’s clearly ugly!
I read this essay and it really gave me some ideas regarding IRL trolling like asking a woman for directions in a dark alley. Yes IRLT is dangerous, but it’s so much more rewarding…
How old are you, Marc?
Because there’s a phase some teenagers go through where they think it’s hilarious to go through the drivethrough and say “yeah, I’d like to supersize… YOUR MOM” and then run off laughing about how they totally showed that drivethough person, what a sucker.
And there’s a phase some college kids go through where they think it’s very meaningful to go through the drivethrough and say “yeah, I’d like to supersize… AMERICAN SOCIETY” and run off thinking that they really struck a blow at the heart of The System.
By the time you’re an adult, you realize that both of these prove nothing except what an asshole you are.
She screwed it up? When some dude cornered her in a small windowless closed room at 4am in a foreign country? What is there to screw up? She politely said no, and then later mentioned it made her uncomfortable.
Er, by “that” I mean “You shouldn’t be guarded around all strange men, but if you get raped then it’s your fault for not being guarded” that you guys have been talking about.
Please, point me to where anyone here has said that getting raped is the victim’s fault, I’m fascinated.
It says that when one wants pleasantness, and doesn’t accept that unpleasantness may be what one gets is misogyny.
Er, no. “Disapproving” is not the same as “not accepting”. The Book of Mordred is saying that it’s misogyny to even personally disapprove of outright rudeness (but only if it’s from a woman, of course, those fucking men better be polite at all times).
If that’s not what the Book of Mordred meant, then maybe he should say what he means.
NWOaf has I am sure but he does not count.
Not because he is a man or anything but because he has shown himself to be pretty much worthless.
And I’ve made it to the end, but I have to head to work, and tomorrow I’m having a going away party (if any of the locals should like to show up, I have a post on my Lj about it. Drop me a line and I’ll send you directions; the notice is short [the party is Saturday], and I apologise. I’ve been sort of distracted, what with moving 3,000 miles, and other stuff).
So I expect it will be a bit longer when I get back.
So, looks are what determine if one’s argument is great or not?
I must’ve missed the memo, Marc.
Remember the Greek System, redlocker. You’re nothing, male or female, unless you’re hot.
What I basically mean is this, MRAL.
The idea of a woman who is less than kind and sweet to a man, for any reason, is anathema to unenlightened men.
Why? It’s a control issue. If you see her there and you know she will speak freely and not deny herself the full range of her emotions, instead of being uncritically sweet, kind, and loving towards the male gender, then you realize, consciously or otherwise, that you will not have a perfectly smooth relationship with her, because she will actually stand up for herself instead of letting you lead her.
Terrible, isn’t it?
Let me restate it again, for clarity:
That girl you (i.e. misogynists in general) look at, who would be SO perfect if only she didn’t “have a chip on her shoulder” i.e. she is aware of the issues and doesn’t pretend they don’t exist so as not to hurt your widdle feelings, doesn’t exist to give eternal emotional validation i.e. ego stroking, she can and will have An Existence Apart, regardless of what you want.
And the thought of such a thing, you can’t stand that.
I think Mordred speaks for Mordred MRAL >_>
Please, point me to where anyone here has said that getting raped is the victim’s fault, I’m fascinated.
In this entire blog, or just this thread? o_O Neways, I think ppl were talking about the general narratives in society about rape. But if you do not believe that being raped is the victim’s fault that’s good :3
I dunno, I kinda think expectations that “girls should be nice all the time” is just fucking stupid and unrealistic, not actually misogyny. Going back to my bike analogy, I think drivers should be aware of bikes all the time and try really hard not to hit them. Expecting them to be perfect at this is unrealistic, not actually hatred of cars or drivers. (In fact I love cars).
You want girls to always be nice to you? Ok, fine, you can want things. Sucks to be you ’cause it ain’t gonna happen, but, whatever. (this should all be taken as “generic you” – I’m not talking to anyone in particular here)
Marc, dudes on Pharyngula started insulting Rebecca Watson’s looks *days* ago. Do try to be original.
Seriously, though, that comment is soooo much like the guy who yells “Hey baby, where you going?”, followed by “Stuck up bitch, you’ve got a fat ass” when you don’t respond.
(2000 comments! We can do it!)
Like Cap’n B said, weak and obvious.
(comment #1350)