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creepy feminism hypocrisy misogyny oppressed men patriarchy rape reactionary bullshit sexual harassment threats

Two atheists get in an elevator

So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:

Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?

Then Richard Dawkins says,

Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:

Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.

Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?

In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)

The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing.  Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.

The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were.  Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):

So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’

Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.

That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:

What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?

Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies.  She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning.  Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.

Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist  pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.

Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:

I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”

In a followup post, she noted:

When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.

And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.

Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.

They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.

And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:

I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

She didn’t shut up.

So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.

Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.

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Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

I know what you meant Kave 🙂 *hugs* ty :3

firebee
firebee
13 years ago

Erl137’s story reminds me of one of my own.

I went to grad school in a fairly walkable town, and went on foot or by bike to campus fairly often. On one particular day, I was walking while listening to podcasts and I passed through the middle of a group of four girls who were apparently from the local high school. I was walking much faster than them and consequently pulled ahead by perhaps a quarter to a half of a block.

A little while later, I felt a certain feeling of proximity behind me and perhaps heard a stifled giggle over the sound of my podcast, so I looked back to find that one of the girls was directly behind me and giggling, and the other three were some distance back, also giggling. The girl that was directly behind me ran back to the group, and they commenced to further giggling. I was a bit unnerved, but I looked at them quizzically and continued walking.

Continue on another half block, and I feel that sense of presence behind me — this time I did a snap turn to walking backwards aaaand… same thing again, one of the girls is right behind me looking like she just ate the canary. This time I say “What the hell do you think you’re doing?” at which point there was much insulted dignity and jeez-you’re-weird-I-weren’t-doing-nothing-wuz-I? from them but they surely did stop following me.

It probably would have been different had it been four high school boys or if these particular girls had a more distinctly aggressive demeanor, but the basic pattern of evaluation and response (wherein transgressive options are most surely on the table) is basically similar. I’ve been harassed/annoyed by both men and women — certain forms of annoyance, such as the aforementioned real-time book report maneuver, are essentially gender-neutral — and men and women viewed in the totality of the circumstances have both given me cause to be concerned for my personal safety.

It’s not, in less wordy words, an engine meant to solely deliver cruel oppression to innocent men. I am aloof and rude to a wide variety of people.

Nobby
Nobby
13 years ago

“and I know I still have to do Nobby and Pecunium”

Wait, wait, I get two cards? I should be annoying more often!

Anyway, I’m sorta regretting saying we should let NWO back in. I mean, did his blather really add anything to the discussion? A few pages, perhaps, and a really revealing comment from unreal man, but other then that all I saw was crazy talk and dishonest arguments.

Nobby
Nobby
13 years ago

Oh, also @Ami, I forgot to mention this last night, but when I play magic my favorite color, by far, is blue. Did you pick up on that, or just a hilarious coincidence?

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

hilarious coincidence xD

firebee
firebee
13 years ago

Sigh, I need to adapt my writing style to the post comment medium. I think essays do not quite work.

As far as what gun for men approaching women, aside from the fact that of course they should be locked away in dungeons beforehand that the question might never come up, I kind of vaguely have an eye on the Ruger Blackhawk. Completely impractical but awesome.

What about recipes? My adopted home state of Colorado seems to have a candidate, if it can be successfully adapted from the cow…

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

*gives firebee hugs*

did you see my card of you? :3

firebee
firebee
13 years ago

I have a card??

Nobby
Nobby
13 years ago

Wait, is it seriously getting close to my bed time and there’s no giant discussion to keep me up? Quick, where are the trolls?

And not NWO, I’ve taken to skipping his posts unless they’re completely necessary to get the context of other people’s comments.

firebee
firebee
13 years ago

Awesome! Is there an index or something?

(also, my boyfriend is a total magic geek and says that it should have R: gains flying until end of turn)

Nobby
Nobby
13 years ago

Also, hugs at @firebee as well. That sounds like a very creepy situation, frankly. Glad they knocked it off after the second… whatever they were doing.

Nobby
Nobby
13 years ago

@firebee tell your BF that they’re a sliver clone. He’ll understand they’re overpowered as is :-p

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

Life’s a Beetch and so are Slivers xD

Bee
Bee
13 years ago

Firebee is one of us. One of us!

I was just thinking of this, as I was walking the dogs in the out of doors in the dead of night. Does anyone remember the episode of Six Feet Under where the deceased is a college girl whose male friends thought it would be funny to stalk her in an empty parking garage, and scared her so much that she ran out into the street without looking and got hit by a car?

It’s been a few years since I saw it, so excuse me if I’m getting some of the details wrong. What I remember most about it is that the friends are so confused that what they did scared her so much; they were just joking around. And the dead girl’s mom and sisters are like, What the FUCK? How could you not know?

To draw a crude analogy, I feel like that’s what’s going on here, with this story, with some people saying, We don’t what his intentions are; what’s the big deal anyway? And others saying, What do you mean what’s the big deal? Four a.m.! Hotel elevator! Scary! And I guess what it comes down to for me is, sure, maybe you feel like an ass for a minute after someone tells you that your attention may not be wanted by every woman all the time. I get that. But that other person? Might be scared for her life. And here you are complaining because your attentions weren’t accepted.

Anyway, i guess none of that is anything that hasn’t already been said on this thread. I just always like to tie everything to Six Feet Under when I can. Six Degrees of Six Feet Under.

Oh, hey Johnny. I’ll vacate the head if you want me to. I was just joking around. No need to sic Elizabeth and the hose on me!

MissMaloney
MissMaloney
13 years ago

I have to admit, I’m kind of vaguely dissatisfied a lot of the time with how the Schroedinger’s Rapist concept is explained. It does not help that some folks apparently read it as “big and scary word in front of ‘rapist’”, cue howling about how they are not a rapist, are not are not ARE NOT!

Some of this, of course, is less than honest.

But there’s something about the original article and some of the ways that people relate the concepts therein that ties back to the common vocabulary and understood body of knowledge of feminsts rather than the general population, I think, which is kind of unfortunate if the person you are attempting to explain the thing to is resolutely a member of the general population.

I know this was a hundred posts ago, but I hope you guys don’t mind if I interrupt briefly to say that I think the metafilter comments on the original article, might be a better introduction to the concept than the article itself. I was amazed to see Internet Dudes on another forum do a complete 180 and say that it really opened their eyes/helped them empathize without feeling attacked. I think it was this excellent comment by mefite Nattie that they responded to:
http://www.metafilter.com/85667/Hi-Whatcha-reading#67168

Not that I think it will inspire any understanding in MRAs like NWO, but maybe one or more of the many, many personal stories will help some guys wrap their heads around why women can be so cautious/defensive around strange men.

Okay, I’m terrible at posting, so I’ll go back to lurking, but also I really love reading these threads, trolls and all. The forums will be amazing.

redlocker
13 years ago

I just read through this entire comment thread.

I am now depressed and angry. I’m going to listen to some music and chill out, because the lengths that MRAs are going to stick it to a person who had every right to say “yes” or “no”…and then use that as some “supporting evidence” of how men are being put down by this phantom of theirs…

I mean, yes, there are reasonable posts from people who know better than the MRAs response, but seeing those mental gymnastics get carried out over the course of an entire thread, in the face of all evidence, and even IGNORING THE EVIDENCE TO CREATE HYPOTHETICAL SITUATIONS IN THEIR PLACE is…oh my fucking god.

That’s all I can say, I’m just angry at this. I guess that’s what I get for being a mangina who agrees with femenism (Which I’m probably doing just to get some pussy and pats on the head from snobby femenist indoctrinated Ameriskanks, but what the fuck ever).

Pecunium
13 years ago

luke123: Typical, It’s not right because you say so. But the truth of the matter is, for you, there will never be a right time. The day after she gives a talk about that subject, in her blog (where she has been known to talk about that subject), when that subject is is a big part of why she is notable in that community…

Not the right time.

But the right time… you will only know it when you see it, and you know this wasn’t the right time because a lot of people got their skivvies in a twist about it, ergo it wasn’t the right time.

Just like it wasn’t the right time for Rosa Parks, or Stonewall, or anything else that goes against the reactionary masses. Because there is always pushback against suggestions of change in the status quo. You’ve already professed you don’t like the status quo, because you think it too favorable to women, ergo you will always think things like this are wrong, and dress it up with a tone argument.

Just as bigots have always done when they are on the defensive.

firebee
firebee
13 years ago

Nobby —

I remain kind of baffled. Some form of bullying seems like the best match for their actions — there’s a reason, probably, whyfor I have the crack ability to detect giggling approach from the rear — but they must somehow have managed to misread me in that case, because I find it rather hard to believe that such a group would knowingly play social dominance games with a 30-year-old engineer and graduate student.

My thought is that they must have read me wrongly as a peer or a near-peer, correctly as a geek or queer or both, and concluded from this that I was a sufficiently tasty target. It would make sense, at a bit of a stretch, since I was carrying a backpack and wearing typical clothing for my school (which probably would have read as quite geeky clothing for theirs) and they had little opportunity to see my face until I turned entirely around. And the headphones also would have had a different meaning for a fellow high school student as opposed to an adult out walking.

Then also, to a degree I was almost more creeped out on their behalf than on my own count (although I was also that). I mean, they were sneaking up on someone who they didn’t know at all, and what were they planning? To lay hands from behind on someone who could have been a martial artist (as I in fact am) or alternatively a returned veteran, a rape victim, and/or someone who was armed? Or just someone who might have called the police or their school?

The mind boggles.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

[02:17] Ami Angelwings: “so wait the jawas were just hiding in that canyon the whole time for a lone droid to wander past?”
[02:18] Kirby: sadly, its usually the jawas that the droids know very well that zap them with electric zappy things and haul them off to be sold…
[02:19] Ami Angelwings: what was r2d2 doing in that canyon at 4am neways?
[02:19] Kirby: he was obviously asking to be sold into slavery
[02:19] Kirby: just look at that metal trim
[02:19] Kirby: what jawa could resist that?

[02:21] Ami Angelwings: vader asking luke to join the dark side after chopping off his hand was only reasonable
[02:21] Ami Angelwings: luke believing that this is creepy is so unfair!
[02:21] Ami Angelwings: besides aren’t there bigger issues to worry about?
[02:21] Ami Angelwings: like the blowing up of planets?
[02:22] Kirby: its not like vader could have *known* before hand that luke wanted his hand
[02:22] Kirby: he’s not a mind reader!
[02:22] Ami Angelwings: XDDD
[02:22] Kirby: and look, he got a robotic one soon after!
[02:22] Kirby: no big deal

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

Oh xD I’m watching Star Wars if you didn’t guess and chatting w/ Kirby :3 (New Hope, but Empire came to mind too xD )

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
13 years ago

@Miss Maloney:

I was seriously put off by the shrodinger’s rapist piece when I first read it. It sounded overly paranoid, and I couldn’t understand how you could go life thinking every guy you meet could be a rapist (as if being a rapist was the default, and you had to prove otherwise).

I showed it to one of my female friends to get her opinion on it. Instead of saying “yeah, that’s kinda bizarre,” she lookd thoughtful and said “yeah, that sounds about right.” I was flabbergasted. She wasn’t a big feminist (as far as I can recall), but while I saw hate mongering, she saw a woman revealing a bit of what the normal experiance for women is.

And so, I read it again. And I realized the author wasn’t calling every guy a rapist, she was trying to explain why women are on their guard, and why behaviors that to us guys might be fine, to them might be creepy, and to please respect that. It wasn’t “you are a rapist until proven otherwise,” it was “I just don’t know what your intentions are.” What irritates me the most now is that this mindset exists in the first place… and it really emphasizes how sometimes life really sucks for women…

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

[02:30] Kirby I never understood why that vent needed to be there…
[02:30] Kirby: it is space after all
[02:31] Kirby: there is no air there..
[02:32] Ami Angelwings: i know xD
[02:33] Ami Angelwings: mind you i don’t understand why the emperor would give accurate plans to the alliance in jedi if he planned it all along xD
[02:33] Kirby: I remember
[02:33] Ami Angelwings: aren’t men supposed to not remember nething?
[02:33] Ami Angelwings: like anniversaries and star wars nitpicks?
[02:33] Kirby: that’s only birthdays and anniveraryies
[02:33] Ami Angelwings: xD
[02:33] Kirby: … and sometimes spelling
[02:34] Ami Angelwings: <3

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

@Kirby YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND!? Omega male! >: *spits*

xD

Molly Ren
13 years ago

If you dun want Kirby anymore, can I have him? 😀

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