So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
I feel like I’ve just admitted to every MRA’s claim about women. I feel really gross.
@Magical Laura I’m glad that you realize what you did then was wrong and that he is okay and things are all right between you. I mean obv was wrong, but you recognize it and own up to it :] Ty for sharing that. :3 And yus, it doesn’t have to be physical abuse for it to be abuse, emotional abuse can be just as terrible… and manipulating ppl’s feelings and it’s def something ppl need to be aware of… and that it’s not this strictly gendered thing >:
I’ve been emotionally abusive in the past too 🙁 When I was in my incredibly depressed period and was so screwed up and in denial, I had a g/f that I was in retrospect trying to live through, and so I was v controlling about what she should wear, trying to isolate her and control her and etc… it fills me w/ a lot of shame… and I am so apologetic for it.. she was abusive to me too on the non “masculine” thoughts and feelings and etc, but that doesn’t excuse or diminish it it.. it was f-ed up 🙁 .. eventually it ended and I hope so much she’s okay and everything.. I feel guilty knowing that at least I moved on and found who I am and happiness b/c sometimes I feel like I don’t deserve it.. and I deserve everything that’s happened to me… 🙁
i know that doesn’t rly actually fit the subject but I felt I wanted to say it too 🙁
@Magical Laura you did not.. you spoke for you.. *hugs* and you also recognize what you did was wrong.. you learned…. their stereotype of us is we can’t ever learn… *hugs again* don’t feel gross… you know what you did was wrong and you even admitted here and used yourself as an example… that is NOT what their stereotype does…
PosterLiz –
4. Try to negotiate sex or dates, not contrive them. Your proposition should be just that, a proposition, not the end of a grand plot to make things go your way. If your plan includes “first, I’ll make it hard for her to say no,” your plan is creepy.
Holly-yeppers…and it is Beth not Liz for my diminutive 🙂
Actually now that you make me think of it-is there any other women out there with tips to avoid making someone creepy?
I mean “making someone feel you are creepy”
Thankyou Ami, your post made me feel so much better. I’m glad you’re happy now, you totally deserve it 🙂 *hug* I’ve been kindof nervous whenever NiceGuyTM is brought up, because I feel like a hypocrite for complaining about it when I exploited a guy myself, but I agree the important thing is to learn and I can safely say I won’t treat anyone like that again.
5. Do not tell somebody that you want to “drink” them… and if the person is trans do not follow it up with “when you’re thirsty, you don’t care about the brand of water you’re drinking”.
5. If a woman specifically says she does not like being hit on, and you hit on her anyway, that will most likely appear to be creepy.
(This is beginning to sound like that old Jeff Foxworthy routine.)
Oh my…that is the most hideous pick up line I have ever heard!
7. if the person is trans or disabled or etc… do not act like they should be grateful you like them at all and that’s enuf of a reason for sex.
8. again if the person is not cis straight white abled etc… don’t say “I’ve never had sex w/ a…” [black person, trans person, disabled person, etc] “before!” like in general… treat ppl as ppl you want to ask out, or even pick up… not as some sort of food you’ve never sampled >_<;;
@Magical Laura, worst part is he did what Holly said not to, he stood with his feet under the wheels of my car forcing me to be unable to pull out of the parking spot without hurting him… so I was stuck there w/ him >:O
@Magical Laura *hugs back* ty… I wanted you to know you’re not alone, but I’m also.. rly ashamed… and I guess revealing I’m not the great person ppl think I am 🙁
Plymouth: I was up late when I posted those comments, so that might account for some of how they came across, but part of it also was, subtlety would be lost on certain people here so I had to state certain things without nuance and without room for negotiation to get through to them.
For instance, the reality of male privilege and the need for men to always be ready to check it if asked to, the reality that not all men are rapists but all men are Schrodingers Rapists, the good possibility that it’s the Entitled Nice Guys that are pushing this because they’re all a bunch of nerds who believe in the Geek Fallacies which is why they don’t think they should ever have to change their behavior at the sayso of others, and most importantly, the fact that a woman’s safety is everything.
Now, here’s a more nuanced question:
One thing I notice is that a woman might call a man creepy, he does reform, and she accepts him, all the while restating that she did feel creeped by his behavior when they first met.
Would a man feel justified, because of his misapprehension that “you’re creepy” means “you might be a predator,” in just ignoring that woman altogether, even if she later comes to find him not creepy and wanting to be friends? Because in his mind, she basically called him a Schrodinger’s Rapist outright.
bah, my kingdom for an edit button.
That should read “Would a man be justified” not “Would a man feel justified,” because naturally he is feeling that if it comes to that.
Chuck from Gucci Little Piggy sent me this email. My reply is below.
I find your basic argument here a bit bizarre; either that or I’m misinterpreting what you wrote in your first paragraph.
If someone you’d never spoken to before, male or female, were to approach you in an elevator at 4 AM and invite you to his/her room you wouldn’t find this weird or creepy? I would.
The idea that if a woman is in public it’s automatically appropriate to hit on her is a bit silly, and I rather doubt you actually believe that. (Either that or you haven’t thought it through.)
Would you hit on a woman at a funeral? In an Emergency room waiting to hear on the condition of a friend who’s been shot? Would you hit on a real estate agent showing a couple a house? A woman rushing to catch an airplane? A woman alone on a subway platform at 3 am? Alone at a highway rest stop at 3 am? Would you walk up to a woman in any of these situations and say “hey, I think you’re neat. Do you want to come to my room?”
Unless I’ve misjudged you entirely, I’m guessing the answer is no. Why? Because you realize it would be creepy. Watson is saying, dudes, it’s creepy if you do that in an elevator at 4 am also.
The entire world is not some big PUA training facility.
The “grey areas” in your second paragraph, on the other hand, seem like perfectly appropriate topics of discussion. Those are the same sorts of “grey areas” I’m talking about above. Is your criticism of Watson that she didn’t specify that in SOME circumstances there’s nothing wrong with a guy hitting on a woman in public but that in other circumstances there is? Because I would think that most people would recognize this; the issue would be as to where to draw the line. I’d say it’s probably good to draw the line at behavior most women would regard as “creepy.”
Laura, to my mind the two crucial things that make a NiceGuyTM are 1) entitlement (she has to notice that I’m so nice… she owes me for being so nice, damn it) and 2) dishonesty. It sounds like you were upfront about the situation with this man, and so was he.
(Besides, if you’d really followed the MRA script, you would’ve married the nice guy for the security, and then had an affair with a biker, or a whole biker gang, or whatever. 🙂 )
@PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
“Some tips on how not to be seen as creepy:
1. Pay attention to surroundings-if you are in a deserted parking lot and come up to a woman asking to go somewhere with her, chances are you will creep her out. If you are at a party where you ask her to sit in the backyard or other quiet space to talk, chances are very unlikely you will creep her out.
2. Pay attention to your own looks-if you have a five day old chin shadow, major circles under your eyes and look like you just buried a corpse, chances are you will creep her out. If you are neatly dressed, bathed and/or do not look like you just buried a corpse, chances are very unlikely you will creep her out.
3. Try to avoid looking like you just buried a corpse period. Oh and bathe regularly.”
Some tips for women on etiquette, common sense and good manners:
1. If a man walks up to you in a deserted parking lot, it’s mostly likely he needs direction or some other assistance, or he just might like to talk to you. DO NOT act like he is a creep or a criminal. DO NOT treat him like a second class citizen. DO NOT roll your eyes, condesend or act aloof in any manner. DO NOT dramatize with your friends about the creep who approached you. You are not a superior being.
2. If a man approaches you and he’s filthy and dirty and he looks like he just buried a corpse, this is because men do virtually all the dirty, dangerous manual labor. He may in fact have just buried a corpse. When he approaches dirty he does so because you are there now when he got off work. DO NOT look down on him because your clothes are clean and he is dirty. DO NOT roll your eyes at him for approaching while dirty. DO NOT act like he is beneath you because of his attire. You are not a superior being.
3. DO NOT act as if women are cleaner than men. DO NOT manipulate every situation to make men out as either abusive/inferior, or women as victims/superior. In other words, break the cycle of misandric indoctrination.
casey, I know your question is addressed to Plymouth, but I’m confused about what it is you’re driving at, and I’m probably not the only one.
Subtlety is lost on them but so are clue-by-fours :p
@caseymordred
I’d say he would be justified, simply because nobody is morally obligated to be friends with someone they don’t want to be friends with. His misapprehension is beside the point.
If a man has, in fact, just finished burying a corpse, I think it would be nicest for both of us if he took a quick shower and put on a clean t-shirt before anyone tried to start anything romantic.
I sure as hell don’t go out trying to pick up dudes when I’m in my stinky/bloody scrubs from the ER. (lol women don’t do dirty work lol)
Fair enough, I thought it might be, to be honest. I’ll illustrate it further.
Guy walks up to a woman, and either through awkwardness or calculation comes across as creepy in his talking to her. Perhaps not up to the point of propositioning yet but it seems a safe assumption that he might.
Girl gets up the nerve to be direct instead of subtle with the Guy and tells him outright that he is being creepy and that he is making her uncomfortable.
Guy acknowledges her feelings and backs off, openly acknowledging her right to feel that way, and apologizing for it. In his mind, however, she may has well have started shouting “rape.”
Fast forward a little bit.
Either through taking the hint and modifying his behavior, or simply not being inclined to act that way anymore, Guy is no longer being creepy and in fact is becoming more socially acceptable because he knows how to behave properly.
Girl takes notice of this and is happy that he seems to have taken the hint, and tries to start up a conversation with him, emphasizing that he was once creepy but now he’s done so well in learning how to not be, and that maybe she will now consider the possibility of being more friendly with him.
Guy still feels unkindly disposed towards her because even though she now accepts him, he feels that the woman’s comfort level was too low and that he was being accused of creepiness just because he was a little awkward. In his mind, she’s some sort of paranoid radfem who thinks that all men are rapists.
Would he be justified in brushing her off, or is he obligated to fully accept the woman’s judgement and not dismiss her as a future friend simply on that basis? Or would he be okay with feeling the woman was too “paranoid” and essentially calling him a Schrodinger’s Rapist?
PosterBETH – Duly noted about your name. 🙂
Caseymordred – Nobody’s obligated to be friends with someone. If he wants to brush her off, if he still doesn’t feel warm toward her, there’s no ethical obligation. He shouldn’t hold a grudge or treat her badly, but if he just doesn’t want to be friends, that’s his right.