So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
NWO, everyone who comments here is well aware of your inability to engage in intelligent and honest discussion. Mockery and dismissal is frankly more than you deserve, and you should be grateful you get even that.
Good job NWOslave. Obliviousness and missing the point. An excellent tactic.
Who am I mocking? That was a true story. Am I mocking myself for not wanting to get my jaw shattered? Am I mocking my ex-roommate for getting his shattered? Am I mocking drivers for sometimes being unaware? I’m confused.
@Plymouth:
You’re making a decent analogy, and NWO thinks you are mocking him because he doesn’t actually read people’s comments, just skims them for key words and structures. Apparently.
Oh Plymouth. How naive you are. Clearly by voicing your irritation at bad drivers, you are expressing your wish to thoroughly control all others who access the road and dictate their every action. Obviously a person cannot vent reasonably about something annoying that happened to them ever. Pffffft.
/end sarcasm.
Seriously though, that sucks. I’m sorry that happened to you. On the 4th while driving home from a cookout, my fiance and I saw people tailgating the freakin’ crap out of an ambulance! People can be such assholes on the road =/
@Graham,
Wow, so she had a boyfriend and yet you were supposedly the selfish one for not sleeping with her? That’s messed up.
Maybe you should have been more frightened. That’s bunny-boiling behavior right there.
…which, I believe, is the female analog to being called a creep.
It was supposed to be an analogy. Oblivious drivers make me uncomfortable because they threaten my safety and that of my friends. When this happens I complain about it. I would like the situation to improve but I don’t expect it to ever be perfect.
Papr1ka – People drive like assholes around ambulances. (Former EMT.) We would joke about the siren switch being the “dumbass button.” And we got into an accident when one person pulled in front of us from the oncoming lane for no apparent reason on a steep hill in heavy traffic. Fortunately, no one was injured and the damage to both vehicles was minor, but I still think she was a dumbass.
I don’t think every woman is a dumbass. I don’t think women should never drive. I don’t even think that woman was the worst person ever and a horrible monster and should be stripped of her licence for life.
I just think that particular woman, taking that particular action, was pretty much a dumbass.
Dang.. did NWO up and leave? Why is it that whenever I start commenting recently, the trolls vanish? Is my pink bubble-gum body and hat made out of fire too imposing for them? How are they not excited that they get a fresh chance to prove their point to somebody who hasn’t gotten embroiled in long derails?
Do they just really hate making their point in a manner that isn’t completely based off of mocking responses and long series of rhetorical questions?
Plymouth, you just don’t want to admit that the driver was the real victim here.
kirbywarp, your flaming hat strikes terror into the hearts of MRAs everywhere.
(And yes, that line will be appearing in the next story.)
That’s crazy. I’m not used to seeing drivers behaving so poorly around emergency vehicles, so I had no idea it was that common at all.
@Johnny Pez:
Hooray! ^__^ Can’t wait to read it 😀
Me and Holly apparently represent all of feminism now xD *high fives Holly* (oh did you see the card I made of the Pervocracy btw Holly? :3 )
And what’s the point of even asking me and Holly questions when you basically said that our answers were wrong and you told us what we believe xD So again… what’s the point? Shouldn’t you just answer FOR us? xD
And are we lying or just naive? o_O Like I’m confused.. are you saying “You two don’t know yourselves! You WOULD act like this in the exact same context w/ the genders flipped!” or are you saying “you know you would and you’re LYING!”
The whole “don’t make me fetch comments” thing reminds me of something that happened to me and a friend when I was like 13 xD And a security guard stopped us outside of a store after he bought something and accused us of stealing, and we said we didn’t, and he said he saw us stealing, and my friend showed him the bag and receipt and he’s like NO NO I saw you stealing something else! then he said “don’t make me check the security video!” and we said, go ahead, we didn’t steal nething, and he said “no no I’ll check!” um sure… go check “no I’m SERIOUS, I’ll go check the video, you think I won’t, but I will!” and we said again then go ahead and check it! and he said finally “fine, you get off this time, but I’ll be watching you”
xD
@Johnny Pez:
Hooray! ^__^ Can’t wait to read it 😀
My hat is rather fabulous, isn’t it?
@Johnny Pez Kirby will be getting a facelift in terms of the card art… my idea is he’s not a Darknyss minion but he works FOR them…. like a mercenary :3
crap.. double post.. Make that triple! Bwa ha ha ha haaaa!
@Plymouth wow that sucks >:| what a jerk driver… I’m glad you’re ok tho! 😀 (and yeah… what was w/ NWO’s response o_O if there was ever proof he doesn’t actually read things before responding to them xD)
“Have flaming hat, will travel.”
Hmm… cuz I’m bored and this has come up as an issue (somebody fwded a protest mail to me, I hadn’t even known it happened xD ) … what do ppl think of FIFA banning the Jordanian and Iranian women’s soccer teams from the Women’s World Cup (going on right now.. Canada had a rly terrible showing -_-) for wearing headscarves while they play? o:
Oh, I can expand the biking analogy further! Like men, oblivious drivers are mostly not malicious (though there are a few who think bikes don’t deserve to share the road) just clueless. Drivers are in a position of power – much more likely to injure bicyclists than the other way around. However, like women, bicyclists can totally also be clueless and cause drivers to get into accidents too! Like women, it’s inappropriate to tell bicyclists they can avoid all potential for injury by just staying home and not biking.
This is fun! Did I miss anything? I can also think of a couple of places where the analogy breaks down…
Ohh, also, like women bicyclists do make more of an extra effort to be aware of their surroundings and avoid the most dangerous intersections (neighborhoods).
It makes me happy when I see those “share the road” signs that try to remind cars that there are bicyclists around. Rebecca’s video struck me as being kinda like a “share the road” PSA.
Appropos of bicycles.. and not much else…
I haven’t corrected grammar in a while.
*Not bad grammar, per se, just poor writing. Although, I suppose that could be said for all of it.
**I know what you’re trying to say, but it’s just horribly worded. This is bad, even for you.
A lot of HTML here. Hope I don’t screw it up. Preview button, David?
Graham, that is terrible and sounds like something happened to my best friend (he was offered a lap dance and ran out of the room so fast he was home in about two minutes.) *bag of chocolate hugs*
And CB, earlier in the thread I said that when women act in a creepy way men call it being a psycho. But I would term it boiling bacon because that is just WRONG behavior!