So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
The comments from this post that I regendered would cause you to jump all over an MRA who said them about women.
I JUST ANSWERED xD
NWO, I answered your question in detail above, addressing each of the questions and explaining why, in regendered form, they were not misogynistic.
Scroll up a bit.
Plymouth gets comment #1000! The crowd goes wild!
Come on people, I can’t do this all by myself. Make some noise. Something.
I’d really like to hear your explaination of why you didn’t say anything about those nasty comments.
If they had been regendered, would you have spoken up against them? o_O
I’m confused whether you think i SHOULD or shouldn’t (like which way do you want me to go? o_O )
So… NWO believes.. what… about this? o_O And does he believe that if an MRA said those comments they would be wrong and he’d be speaking up against them? He said if an MRA said those, ACCORDING TO HIM, it’d be Manboobz material and be there… but I haven’t seen him call out any Manboobz material… by his logic it means that he’s fine w/ the comments AND ALSO fine w/ the regendered of them xD
@Holly and I agreed w/ you xD But NWO doesn’t care about you (or honestly what I say) he cares about revealing how evil I am to the world and “defeating” me.. xD I’m Moby Dick and he’s Captain Ahab xD
Weirdly (because I don’t get hit on often) I was once hit on by a woman who made me very uncomfortable. Despite being told repeatedly that I wasn’t interested, she insisted I go home with her. In the end I ran away (seriously *ran*) – and she actually chased me down a busy street yelling that I was selfish.
It was an awkward situation. But the thing is, at no point was I scared that she was genuinely going to hurt me. Even though I’m not a tough guy, it never crossed my mind that I was in physical danger. She was drunk, and very unreasonable, but apart from the awkwardness it wasn’t that big a deal.
And that – my dear NWO and any other MRAs who may be reading – is male privilege. The chance to experience something like that and be confident that however weird it gets, you’re not going to get raped.
(And yes, I know women *can* be physically dangerous, and that men *can* get raped by women. But what I’m saying is that it’s so unlikely that even when being chased down a road I could find it kind of funny rather than frightening.)
Graham – There’s a secondary and very relevant bit of male privilege in your story.
You’re saying the woman made you “uncomfortable”, that she was “very unreasonable” and that you literally ran away from her.
Dollars to donuts you aren’t going to be beset upon by women saying you were the jerk in this situation and you should have given her a chance.
And to clarify for the slower members of her audience–Graham, she was the jerk in this situation and you had every right to feel uncomfortable, every right to get yourself out of that situation by whatever means necessary, and every right to talk about it.
You’re a jerk Graham! Why didn’t you give her a chance!? She was prolly rly nervous, or.. at the very least she meant well! >:O
also *hugs* :]
Er… “our” audience.
Is NWO going off trolling for interactions w/ Ami and other ppl that he believes proves what a terrible misandrist I am or something? xD
Hopefully these will be more than one line things and he’ll provided links to the whole thread too xD
I rly AM his white whale xD
Jeez, Graham, don’t be a jerk! You should have given her a chance!
(Oh, wait, I’m not a woman. Never mind.)
Wow. I really missed out on this thread…over a thousand comments and counting.
This illustrates why Manboobz needs a forum.
@Papr1ka and it’s gonna keep going as long as NWO hasn’t “beat” me xD so I suspect we’ll be close to 2000 soon at this rate xD
it’s not even ABOUT this issue neways xD (which I think has been mostly settled now :] at least since most of the hyperbole and misinformation is done :] )
You’re a jerk Graham! Why didn’t you give her a chance!? She was prolly rly nervous, or.. at the very least she meant well! >:O
Yeah, she was probably just social awkward and desperate. Cut the girl some slack, why don’t you? If she’d looked like Brad Pitt, you’d have been all over her, right?
Holly Pervocracy, your explanations are hollow.
If a man trys to tell a woman how to act you will be the first in line to scream about owning a woman. It’s not like I haven’t heard your screed before. You’ve scream misogynist at comments that are literally carbon copies of this. You’re telling me if I had made those same comments you would have defended my right to make them. Even you can’t belive that, but here you are defending them because a woman said them. Or someone from you holy faction.
Ami Angelwings, you would call out everyone of those comments/have called out comments that are pratically identical as putrid hate. Not this time, why? Because the same as Holly, they were made by a woman, or someone from your faction.
You reserve the right to dictate a mans actions so that no woman will ever feel any discomfort ever. Yet no man may dictate a womans action lest he be trying to own her sexuality. Which means any dissagreement is unacceptable if it causes discomfort. Are you sure women aren’t perfect? I mean if you want the right to never feel discomfort and always be considered right?
I think I pointed this out yesterday, but what’s with the Brad Pitt stuff xD Like… they use Megan Fox not Cindy Crawford.. so why are we still using an actor from the 90s as the epitome of male hotness in 2011? XD
MRAL: “Are women allowed to be rude”?
Allowed by whom?
Define “rude” first.
When I moved to Texas, I was considered a rude horribly Yankee though at home in Idaho or Washington I’m considered fairly shy and nice. I didn’t change; the definitions of rude and politce changed on me. And that’s nothng compared to how the faculty who are from New York or New Jersey aer seen by the native Texans!
Pecunium: I know the history and meanings of “politically correct”–my point is a whole shitload of people who use it don’t, and use it simply to shut down people, becuse it is widely perceived as derogatory because of Rush and CO–and that’s how MRAL used it, while complaining about “USian” being…derogatory!
I’m now asking him to define rude–and I’m pretty sure based on his earlier posts that I think women are justified in being what he calls rude to him.
You’re telling me if I had made those same comments you would have defended my right to make them.
Yes. But you don’t make those same comments. You make…
Well, honestly, you make comments indicating delusions about what feminists think. You could run an entire Bizzaro Feminist Movement with the things you insist feminists believe–no matter that you’ve never heard a feminist say them.
(I think you’re also really bad at reading, and don’t understand the difference between moderate disapproval of particular behaviors and total disapproval of all behaviors.)
Graham is objecting to a woman’s actions. We’re not jumping all over him. She was inappropriate and he’s in the right.
Thing is, I was attracted to her – (well, before it got really weird) – and the only reason I refused to go home with her was that she had a boyfriend. Because I was young and my ethics were strong enough that that mattered.
But yes, Holly, you’re right. If anything all this story will lead to is a bunch of MRAs chanting “SEE? All wimmin are teh rapists!!”
@Holly Pervocracy
Well am I making a Bizzaro Feminist Movement comment now. Your still just making excuses. I could go back and get those comments and their authors so that you can chastise them for their poor behavior.
A sign of good faith about feminist inclusive equality would go along way, lest I feel uncomfortable.
Hey, the other day on my bike someone cut me off! I was going straight and they made a right turn in front of me and cut me off! I don’t even know whether they were male or female – they were in a car, they went by fast, I didn’t see. An ex-roommate of mine had this happen to him and the results were much worse – he ended up with a shattered jaw and several missing teeth. And you know what, I went of facebook and complained for a few seconds about how a lot of drivers can be idiots and I wish they’d watch where they’re going. Does that mean I think every driver should have 100% perfect awareness and not be allowed on the road unless they pass a test that says they do? Do I think I have a right to entirely car-free roads? No! It just means I was kinda cranky about almost being injured and I’d like it if people paid a little more attention.
Also, I am looking forward to having that bike overpass finished so I can get across the freeway without having to sit at that particular light 🙂 But there will be others…
Good job Plymouth. Mockery and dismissal. An excellent tactic.
Hi everyone.
Wow… this thread just got epic… What is NWO going off about now? I’ve tried to read through some of the new comments and I still don’t get it… It seems we’re talking about how, fundamentally, if Watson’s comments were regendered, suddenly the entire feminist movement would be up in arms about how misandrist [he] was? Is that what’s happening?
It really sucks catching the tail end of these conversations… 😛