So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
NWOSlave: I regendered the source:
“‘So I walk to the elevator, and a woman got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Donna’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
“‘Um, just a word to wise here, gals, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single man, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when women sexualize me in that manner.’
“That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most gals would be well aware that accosting a man you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on female sexuality and women in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
“‘What effect do you think it has on women to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?’
“Never mind that he didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did he even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of men’s rights in Islamist theocracies. He merely suggested that gals might want to think twice before hitting on men who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all women creepy.”
Which comments? Can you regender the whole thing (in context) without just lines? o_O
As Spearhafoc pointed out.. the context is a v specific situation. xD
She already answered that, you dolt!
Neither she nor I have a problem with those statements, regendered or otherwise.
Here Holly I’ll recopy them, I think it’s just the first page. I’ve regendered them. Whaddya think.
All women should wish to avoid making men uncomfortable. Therefore, no women should do what elevator girl did.
“Because just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean that you don’t think that you’re entitlted to man’s time, attention, and bodies.”
“I would not be because I would be too busy laughing at her but that is my reaction and I am not Ms Watson.”
What the fuck is it with women who think men automatically owe them every courtesy in every possible situation? What a bunch of whiny, entitled babies.
The poor dear, her life must be fucking ruined. How dare he talk about her at all on his own blog, the nerve.
My guess is a big ole excuse. Man if you saw this shit on an MRA site it’d be man boobz worthy.
Ami, I waiting for you to call out all those comments I regendered. Because you care, right?
I’ll phrase it differently. If those comments (in context) had come out w/ a different gender, do you believe I would normally call them out, and say they are misogynist? :]
You alrdy think I’m the most vile person here… now suddenly you believe I care about things? o_O So… you do believe I’m a good person and my reputation will go down in your eyes if I don’t do what you want me to correct? :]
I’m guessing the context is pretty self evident.
Nope. Wouldn’t care.
All women should wish to avoid making men uncomfortable.
isn’t that what you were just saying above? o_O did i call you a misandrist? xD
and that’s… mordred right? the guy who everybody was thinking is a poe troll? xD
Wow Spearhafoc, being such a stickler on grammar sure doesn’t transcend in anyway to telling the truth.
Context is not important.
I haven’t followed the discussion closely but nobody can deny that there was some serious misandry in several comments here and they were not called out by anyone other than MRAs.
If anything, that confirms the need for MRA because feminism is clearly insufficient for gender issues.
I thought some of Mordred’s comments were pretty misandric, but I was asleep at the time and by the time I woke up the conversation had moved in.
So, if it’s misandry, it should be misogyny when regendered, right?
All women should wish to avoid making men uncomfortable. Therefore, no women should do what elevator girl did.
I agree. Women should avoid taking actions that make men uncomfortable, unless there is a compelling other reason to do these things. (“I want to get laid and think it works like this” is not compelling.)
“Because just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean that you don’t think that you’re entitlted to man’s time, attention, and bodies.”
I’m NOT entitled to a man’s time, attention, or body.
“I would not be because I would be too busy laughing at her but that is my reaction and I am not Ms Watson.”
Laughing who does something awkward is impolite (and sometimes dangerous), but does not indicate hatred of their gender.
What the fuck is it with women who think men automatically owe them every courtesy in every possible situation? What a bunch of whiny, entitled babies.
THOSE PARTICULAR women who think they’re entitled to men’s attention are whiny and entitled. However, not all women think this.
The poor dear, her life must be fucking ruined. How dare he talk about her at all on his own blog, the nerve.
If a woman had skeeved on a man like this, I would defend his right to talk about it.
So yeah. It’s not coming off all that misogynistic regendered.
@Ami Angelwings
If you’re going to claim intelligence, please act it. You damn well I said that as a regendered version of what was said here in the comment section.
You would have no trouble leaping all over these type of comments had they been directed at women by MRAs. You also have no problem with endorsing or remaining silent about these comment directed at men. You’re a hypocrite.
Okay so the context in this case would be that a man was approached at 4am after giving a speech about sexual harassment w/ men in an elevator by a woman who he believed had heard the speech, she asks him to have sex, he says no… then he mentions briefly in his vlog that this is a creepy thing and women shouldn’t do that in that context. right? :]
and then he gets jumped on by ppl about how he’s wrong to say that and defending her…
and then in context, an argument breaks out and that stuff comes out…?
(cuz again, you are taking different lines from different ppl xD at least David attributes to who said what and links to the context)
I’d be fine w/ it. In fact I’d understand it. xD In the same way I understand it here. (tho I don’t agree w/ Mordred.. I think his rhetoric is v simplistic -_-)
do you believe that I should act differently? o_O
you tell ME what I think? 😀
Also I was wondering, do you think the women here are LYING to you about what they think or are just naive and dunno what they think as well as you do :] Cuz you seem to know what we believe, but I’m wondering if it’s cuz you think we’re NAIVE and don’t realize what we’re thinking, or we do and we’re lying to you :3
Nobody would care!
So here’s my regender:
Are you saying that if a woman hits on a man in a way he finds threatening and unwelcome, he shouldn’t talk about it?
Or that there is no way a woman could ever hit on a man in a threatening or unwelcome way?
And.. let the NWO attacking the Rodeo cat begin! xD (so basically this is ultimately about me xD )
what do you believe I think about this situation? o: you seem to not believe a thing I’ve said here…
so you tell me! xD
Holly’s breakdown works rly great too xD Even out of context.. yeah xD THOSE PARTICULAR WOMEN? yeah xD
So wait… let’s avoid this tail chasing.. NWO, what do YOU believe? :] What do YOU think about this situation? :] (let’s start w/ that)
This is NWO’s whole thing about not revealing what he believes as usual, and just needing, desperately, to prove to the world the evil he knows lurks in the heart of Ami, isn’t it? xD
So does NWO just think I don’t REALIZE I hate men, or I just won’t admit I do.. and why am I lying if I do? o_O
Ami, yeah, that would be the whole “If you answer one way, you’re admitting I’m right and I win but if you answer another way it means you’re lying and I’m right and I win” routine. Most people who use this line of argument actually think it means they’re a superior intellect. Most people who have an IQ above that of a room-temperature avocado realize it’s just a fancier way of saying “I know YOU are, but what am I?”.
you know NWO, somebody once threatened to rape you on this blog, and I defended you just as harsh as I would elsewhere, didn’t back off even when they tried to justify it, and told them that you shouldn’t threaten or even joke about raping or wanting somebody raped. xD
That’s the big misandrist ol me!
(even on this thread, I’ve been stating my views about how I think it’s overblown both from ppl who said she’s basically accusing a guy of rape (nobody called that out o_O) or that feminism wants the guy accused of rape (again no call out.. I think the whole “tacit consent!” in a busy comment thread can be rly problematic, I’m not saying it SHOULD be or that b/c no MRA said nething about it therefore it means they believe it xD ) and ppl who are comparing it to sexual assault or etc…
But then this isn’t rly about me xD It’s about the me that NWO knows is there and needs to reveal to the world xD
Oh great sage Ami.
Ummm, my question wasn’t answered.
The comments from this post that I regendered would cause you to jump all over an MRA who said them about women. Do you really want me to copy your comments from previous posts about virtually identical comments.
I’d like to know why, in the spirit of equality which feminism is all about, you didn’t jump all over those nasty comments.
Surely you can’t expect me to answer you questions while you refuse to answer mine.
I’d really like to hear your explaination of why you didn’t say anything about those nasty comments.
Oh, and of course I’d like all of you opinions as well. Since none of you so much as peeped a single sylable against those nasty comments. It’s almost like a case of accepting misandry as a natural part of life.
Please illuminate me, or mock me, or just go off about snowcones or something equally irrelevant.
I think that’s always the funniest thing to me xD it wasn’t just that I defended an MRA, it was I defended NWO, the guy who HATES me, and I’m the ONLY one who did even in the face of the fact nobody agreed w/ me xD
Also me and Kirby stood up for him when Pecunium wrote that v violent thing about him… xD
But yeah I’m evil and vile and stompy! XD
ohh ohh do I get to be #1000?? Do I do I?