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Two atheists get in an elevator

So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:

Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?

Then Richard Dawkins says,

Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:

Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.

Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?

In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)

The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing.  Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.

The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were.  Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):

So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’

Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.

That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:

What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?

Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies.  She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning.  Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.

Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist  pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.

Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:

I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”

In a followup post, she noted:

When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.

And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.

Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.

They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.

And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:

I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

She didn’t shut up.

So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.

Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.

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Plymouth
Plymouth
13 years ago

I honestly, in real life, do strive to make other people feel comfortable most of the time. I give them the benefit of the doubt as much as I can (said elsethread I don’t actually subscribe to the “Shroedingers Rapist” concept. I kinda get why it exists but it doesn’t reflect my actual life.). When people ask me out and I’m not interested I try to say “no” in a nice way. Sometimes I’m sure I fail. This isn’t great but life goes on. On another type of rejection, one time I broke up with a boy over instant messenger. I was young and stupid and I’m sure I made him feel like crap. Later people told me it was a rude and stupid thing to do. I didn’t argue with them about how pure my intentions were – I resolved to not do it again because they were right. Years later we managed to become friends again and I apologized for it. We’re still friends.

unreal man
13 years ago

@ Ami
Like I told somebody else here. It’s not so much her opinion that’s the problem but all of those people calling this guy a creep even if they weren’t there and don’t know him. Try just saying “I would never accept an offer in situation xyz”. That way you’re making it about you and your beliefs rather than about judging and condemning from a safe distance.

@ Amnesia

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Or are you out for vengeance?

NWOslave
NWOslave
13 years ago

So what does everyone think about the very few comments where I reversed the genders. Are the now mock-worthy misogynist comments?

Misandry allows you to turn anything a man does into a womans victimizastion, all while the while remaining aloof to any criticism.

Otherwise, you’d have called out the misandry of those statements as unacceptable. So the question is why didn’t you? Because women can only be victims. And where there’s a victim there’s an oppressor. I wonder who that is?

Kave
Kave
13 years ago

SLAVE needs to see someone about his mental health. That’s all I will say about him.

My brother has schizophrenia:

a long-term mental disorder of a type involving a breakdown in the relation between thought, emotion, and behavior, leading to faulty perception, inappropriate actions and feelings, withdrawal from reality and personal relationships into fantasy and delusion, and a sense of mental fragmentation.

If he wasn’t in care I would swear Slave was him.

Get help.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

I think her point is that, as you said, it’s “two wrongs”, and reminding you that that’s also w/ the dynamics that you say :] I dun think she’s saying “therefore this would be ok” … but I can see why you would read it as “what about the womenz?” which is why I haven’t said nething… but I think the point/hope is that you would understand the same issues and be willing to listen the same way for women and “slut” “bitch” “ho” and issues about controlling our behaviour and etc as well :]

Did you post that or email that to her or some of her supporters btw? Maybe fleshed out.. if you said it in the way you just said it here, i think it would be listened to or spark a discussion/debate about it :]

Kave
Kave
13 years ago

Unreal man

How do you feel about people calling a woman a slut when they don’t know her?

Spearhafoc
13 years ago

Are they now mock-worthy misogynist comments?

No.

Even when you make them about women, they’re still only about a specific type of woman; not women in general.

NWOslave
NWOslave
13 years ago

@Plymouth… ” said elsethread I don’t actually subscribe to the “Shroedingers Rapist” concept. I kinda get why it exists but it doesn’t reflect my actual life.)”

Well let me clarify it for ya.

In Shroedingers Cat, it’s, is the cat dead or alive.
In Shroedingers Rapist, its, is the rapist dead or alive. The rapist is a gimmie, hence the term “rapist”, it’s just if HE is dead or alive.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

I was young and stupid and I’m sure I made him feel like crap. Later people told me it was a rude and stupid thing to do. I didn’t argue with them about how pure my intentions were – I resolved to not do it again because they were right. Years later we managed to become friends again and I apologized for it. We’re still friends.

*repoints to Plymouth (and her awesomeness) cuz it is something great she said* :]

also I am always impressed by your introspectiveness :]

NWOslave
NWOslave
13 years ago

Kave, yes we already got that. health professional. It’s funny. And a fine contribution as well.

Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

@KristinMH

I hate snocones too! I hate chewing on ice, and snocones are just ice soaked in a melted popsicle. Yuck.

Please don’t call them snocones. The correct usage is snowcones or snow cones. Omitting the “w” is wrong and definitely pejorative. There is no reason for this, but it’s true.

NWOslave
NWOslave
13 years ago

Good gravy the mutual admiration party has begun.

You’re awesome Plymouth.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

@Spearhafoc exactly, ppl are talking about a v specific situation here… :]

@Unreal man also ty for offering what you believe ppl should have said 🙂

Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

NWO, you’re awsome! {hugs}

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

Yeah he’s so not not reading me xD

apparently I’m not allowed to like my friends just cuz NWO doesn’t like them xD

YOU SUCK SPEARHAFOC!

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

see see i said NWO didn’t ALLOW me to do things! cuz he’s a MAN! xD

of course what I meant (before he gets upset) is that I find it hilarious that he gets upset b/c I like my friends xD

Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

In Shroedingers Rapist, its, is the rapist dead or alive. The rapist is a gimmie, hence the term “rapist”, it’s just if HE is dead or alive.

The point of “Schrödinger’s Rapist” is “any man could be a rapist.”

The point is not “every man could be a rapist.”

The point is that you may be a lovely person, someone who would totally respect my boundaries and is merely expressing polite friendship–but I can’t know that. I can’t read your mind and see the good inside. I have to put my own safety first.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

And therefore we should accuse them of rape, or shoot them as a potential rapist right Holly? >:O

unreal man
13 years ago

@ Kave
“How do you feel about people calling a woman a slut when they don’t know her?”

I don’t know what this has to do with the issue we’re talking about but here’s my answer:

I don’t think I’ve ever called anyone a slut in my life before. Perhaps because I have no problem with women sleeping around and perhaps because I don’t understand any other meaning behind it.

NWOslave
NWOslave
13 years ago

No Holly Pervocracy, “Schrödinger’s Rapist”

The rapist part is already stated as a fact. Otherwise it would be accused rapist.

Call it for what it is.

Ami, I waiting for you to call out all those comments I regendered. Because you care, right?

Molly Ren
13 years ago

Just for the hell of it I regendered Kave’s comment:

“Unreal woman, As a woman>

“I’m in an elevator at 4 in the morning with another gal. I don’t know who this gal is and she asks me (or you) to come for coffee in her hotel room. Creepy.

“I’ve been come onto by women many times in my life. Although I’m getting broader now I’m tall and slim with same length somewhat long hair and generally look like a generic bassist.

“I can’t say it’s never offended me. When the gal put her hand on my leg when I was hitch-hiking (back when people did that) very creepy but generally not at all

“The girl telling me she loves my hello kitty purse while my husband is in the lords room, not at all creepy in fact the three of us ended up hanging out for awhile. I would however feel uncomfortable in the above situation.”

Then Arielle’s:

“One of the reasons I’m an atheist is because I dislike the way the male sex is looked down on in most modern religions. To see so many anti-masculist/misandrist atheists is appalling. Being so hateful against boys and men is anything *but* rational. In religion, there may be some ideas pushed into people’s minds about superiority and inferiority based on sex, but to see supposedly “rational” people embrace misandristic beliefs perpetuated by society makes me feel even less safe in this world. Ever since being aware of the MRA/anti-masculist communities, I feel like even more women are potential misandrists. Hell, most of my friends are women, and I really hope none of them secretly resents me.

“I used to really like Rita Dawkins. Assuming that the one mentioned is the real one, then I don’t want to read her writings anymore. I’d rather associate myself with rational, not sexist, atheists.”

Hmm. Now I’ve made you sound like an MRA. XD

Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

Ami – I think NWOs point of view more or less comes down to “if we aren’t killing women we’ll be killing men.”

Points on the scale of gender relations between “kill ’em all” and “kill ’em all” confuse and frighten him.

unreal man
13 years ago

You can’t really regender words like “creepy” or “slut”. They are so gendered in their use that it doesn’t really work. I think NWOslave meant other comments.

NWOslave
NWOslave
13 years ago

How about you Holly Pervocracy

Wanna call out those posts from commentors on this article as being misandric. or can’t ya do it.

Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

NWO – Um, I think it’s misandric to say “I hate men,” or “men are all [bad thing].” It’s also covertly misandric to say “men are all [good thing].”

Admittedly there’s 900+ comments, but I haven’t seen any statements synonymous with this on the thread.

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