So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Hmm, I smell (heh) an unfilled business niche!
Ami, there are times that I really don’t understand humans either! But the MRA’s take on this is basically: “I want permission to do things that most people would consider ‘creepy’ but I do not want to be called creepy, as that hurts my feelings.”
is your concern her thoughts or that she expressed them? o_O Like do you think she should NOT think he’s creepy, or that she should keep it to herself?
Good question.
I find it interesting that MRAs seem more invested in demanding that women change their reactions to behavior perceived as creepy than in altering behavior to obtain a better result. Which strategy is more realistic and effective … well, I have my own ideas.
What, no one else wants to talk about Varney?
Why did he keep hitting on women whose blood he’d already tried to drink? They either knew it was him who attacked them in their sleep, or they had a (natural) subconscious aversion to him because of it.
I realise the monthly blood-drinking was a compulsive behaviour he didn’t have much control over, but he should at least try to avoid his victims afterwards – not try to woo them.
The problem is that “creepy” is a very loaded word. Using it to judge somebody – especially just from reading gossip about it is using privilege in a harmful way. It is purposely vague so it could essentially mean anything. This ensures that the branded or any other male who might be looking to make a move knows that he’s never safe from being labeled creepy no matter how much he tries to follow the advice. Even following advice will be called creepy by some.
I think a lot of the MRAs are under the impression that relationships (whether lifelong marriage or a one-night stand) start when you jump out in front of a woman and yell “HEY! WANNA BE MY GIRL?”
The woman may say yes or no, for reasons fair or unfair, but it all comes down to that.
The idea of building a relationship over time–and I don’t mean extended courtship, I just mean getting to know each other (and getting to know if you even like her) over enough time that she actually feels like she knows whether you’re “basically a good guy” when you ask her back to your hotel room.
It won’t get you a “yes” every time, but it’ll creep women out a lot less than the “so, are you gonna fuck me or not?” approach.
“Creepy” is a very specific word. It means:
“This person frightens me. Not AUGH A BEAR RUN frightens, but they make me worry that they do not have my best interests at heart, and if I were alone with them and unable to leave, they may do something to harm me.”
It’s not an expression of hatred but of fear. And when I tell another woman that a guy is “creepy” (which I don’t do all the time, by the way), I’m not trying to slander him; I’m trying to warn her, so that she knows he is possibly not a safe person to be around. It’s a safety thing.
The level of misandry, so accepted, indoctrinated and endorsed is truely staggering. The article is about a woman feeling a man is being creepy for talking to a woman in an elevator at 4 AM. All of you agree completely and support her 100%.
@Simone Lovelace… “All men should wish to avoid making women uncomfortable. Therefore, no men should do what elevator dude did.”
@PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth… “I would not be because I would be too busy laughing at him but that is my reaction and I am not Ms Watson.”
@KristinMH… “Because just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean that you don’t think that you’re entitlted to women’s time, attention, and bodies.”
@Plymouth… “Apparently I have to say this YET AGAIN because apparently my comments are invisible to MRAs or something but “creepy” is really NOT THAT BAD.”
@FedUpVT… “How DARE this woman tell us enlightened men how to behave! It’s an infringement on my First Amendment Penis!”
@Holly Pervocracy… “She just said this made her uncomfortable. So if you don’t want to make women uncomfortable, maybe don’t do this.”
@Ami Angelwings… “right? o_O (it’s hard to follow when ppl are telling me how my entire gender, and therefore me, think.. xD )”
Now imagine if an article like this was on a MRM site and the comments read along these line? With ALL women being dictated to about ensuring men always feel comfortable. Laughing at women’s feeble come on’s. Being entitled to a mans attention, wealth and body. A man’s insult to a woman ain’t so bad and is acceptable. Mockery of men. SHe’s uncomfortable by his actions, he should change his actions. All the prevailing thought here is the same without contradiction other than the bad men.
Why that article/comment’s would by misogyny and all the crew would be mocking those stupid men. Your acceptance and endorsement of misandry is plain to see. This woman elevated her social status by claiming victimhood at a mans expense. Everyone of you are in total agreement. If being able/endorsed to dictate a mans actions and expecting praise for ridiculing him if he doesn’t comply. Expecting ALL men, as stated by youselves to be constantly on thier guard to ensure no woman ever feels uncomfortable or sleighted in any manner, while offering nothing but ridicule and mockery in return isn’t misandy? Than what is?
To expand somewhat on what Holly said here…
What if somebody told him that she was interested in him and coerced him to make a move?
A suggestion is not “coercion.” It’s technically possible he was tricked into it, but… that’s really, really reaching and there’s no reason to think this happened.
Also, if that is the case, her response of “hey, that’s not a good idea don’t do it” is a GOOD COUNTER to friends saying “do it! Hit on her! She wants it!” and not some crazy overreaction.
This guy, not a horrible person, just a little clueless, as are apparently quite a few atheist con-goers. Rebecca attempted to inject a little clue. Still don’t get why this is a big deal.
unreal man
So is slut a loaded word. Agreed?
If someone was to say that John David is a creep and Gloria Bleep is a slut would that not be the same thing?
But that didn’t happen here. What happened is akin to you saying in your video blog “I meet this woman last night and she came across as slutty”.
No names, no calling her an outright slut, just your opinion.
Why in heavens name are you not seeing this in a reality based content? Read Ami’s post again. This is the web dude.. you don’t even have to say you’re wrong you just have to stop posting.
@Plymouth… “This guy, not a horrible person, just a little clueless, as are apparently quite a few atheist con-goers. Rebecca attempted to inject a little clue. Still don’t get why this is a big deal.”
You continue to confirm my post on the previous page, thank you.
You as a woman may dictate any action a man takes as something a man shouldn’t do because it makes you uncomfortable. Yet if I, as a man, try to dictate any action you do that I don’t like, I would be controlling.
Misandry, you take it for granted.
Also, Unreal Man said: “Perhaps some people might want to learn that you can reject an offer without the other person being deemed as creepy. ”
I think several of us have given testimony of such. The VAST VAST MAJORITY of offers I have turned down were NOT CREEPY. Some of them are people I am still friends with YEARS later. The common denominator to all of them is that they did it in a non-pushy non-manipulative way that made it clear a “no” would be accepted and taken at face value.
SLAVE
Go see a mental health professional. Run don’t walk. Even if you are here just to be a troll and really don’t agree with your own statements you need help. There is nothing in what you post here right now that leaves me with any hope for your future unless you get help.
If you are sincere in your posting here then you are reminding me of my brothers mind patterns a little bit too much. You need to seek help.
Do you have family that knows what’s going on with you?
Advice = Dictation. Got it. New World Dictionary. Seriously, if Rebecca is now Supreme Dictator of All Men, why are so many of them not listening to her?
Kave… Good answer. Go to the previous page, see the comments I quoted, If those comments were written. Would that be misogyny? Yet it isn’t misandry? You’re a hypocrite. As is your entire movement.
@Ion:
“You know what’s funny? You try to come off as wise and mature, but in fact, I actually used to think like you when I was younger and stupider. I bought into all the “men are evil, men are natural rapists” crap spouted by feminist circles and their neutered mangina allies.”
You bought into that? What a dumbass you were. Nobody’s a “natural rapist”, that’s evo-psych garbage. All I’ve ever heard is that men are the vast majority of perpetrators when it comes to rape. Only morons and people making excuses fall back on this “natural” argument. Men aren’t naturally rapists any more than they’re naturally violent, naturally stupid, naturally unemotional or naturally predisposed to any behavior. Not sure who you were listening to, but I don’t see that coming from any feminists except maybe the radfems and I don’t pay attention to them. That crap you’re talking about? Sounds like the standard emotionalist argument against feminism that’s long on visceral grab and short on facts.
“I was concerned about not coming off as threatening or creepy. I was courteous and kind and polite, I respected women, but I forgot to respect myself. And while the bad boys, playa gangstas, and abusive douchebags were strutting around town with an “I take what I want” attitude and a new girl on their arm every week, I was hearing “Wow, you’re a great guy, but I like you as a friend. Well, see you later, gotta go have sex with the jerk boyfriend I’ve been complaining to you about!””
What a touching story. And one I’ve never, ever heard before from anybody like you, for reals.
Okay that’s a lie. I heart this bullshit from you lot all the time. “Waaaaaah, the women I want won’t just fall into my lap, they just go with abusive guys so they’re obviously stupid but I WANT THEM ANYWAY!! I’m gonna stand up for myself and that means I need to put them and other women who don’t do what I want down all the time! I don’t need to be polite, I need to be more like the guys I’m trash talking!”.
And you probably still wonder why I call you a whiner.
Oh but thank you very much for assuring me that you have a fulfilling life with lots of reliable friends (half of whom are women, naturally). I was really worried about that for a while.
Okay lying again. Honestly could care less. Not really moved by you baring your tragic mangina past for us, since it’s just a bunch of Nice Guy whining about how the world owes you whatever women you want and you’re going to be a jerk now because jerks get women. Still amused by you continuing to call me neutered though, it’s cute how you’re just going to stick with that like it actually has a hope of working. 🙂
Wait did he just combine ALL of our quotes into one piece as if we were all one single person? o_O (also I thought he wasn’t reading me if I used smileys nemore xD what’s the next NWO ultimatum? xD)
What I find interesting is that she didn’t say HE was creepy, or that he gave creepy vibes, or that all men are creepy. She said that the particular situation, it being 4am, her having given a talk on the treatment of women, him doing it in an enclosed space… was creepy. o_O And I think we all know that by creepy she means “it made me uncomfortable” and it’s not so vague that you have no idea what she means… she means “this situation made me uncomfortable”…
So she means a specific situation. o_O Not “guys don’t be creepy”. Now THAT would be vague. xD If you want to know what women think, that is one woman (and others agreeing with her) telling you. How useful is that? I have no idea xD Cuz lots of women would also not think that’s creepy… just like if you approached me w/ a wrestling catchphrase to pick me up (it’s on youtube) it’d prolly work… but it prolly wouldn’t work on others xD
I was thinking tho… to clarify things :3
What if the same thing happened, and the next day she was w/ a friend at a coffee shop and complaining about this situation, same thing she said in the video, and that the situation was creepy, etc etc…
if you overheard it, would you turn around and tell her she’s wrong to think that he (or his actions) were creepy?
What if she had been overheard by somebody and then somebody posted it online that Skepchick thought it was rly creepy? Would the reaction be the same?
Cuz the argument going on HERE seems to be that her thinking that it was creepy was WRONG, that it’s unfair that men do things and some women may be thinking that it’s creepy, and they should not.
Is that it? o_O Or is it not it? Ultimately, is it about what she THOUGHT? o_O
Plymouth, don’t talk to me unless I give you permission. It makes me uncomfortable. I guess you think just because your a woman you’re entitled to my time and attention.
Oh thats right. If you as a woman say that to a man it has meaning and is gospel. If I say it to you I’m a misogynist.
Misandry much?
I thought we were one person like those toys that have the disparate parts that snap together.
You as a woman may dictate any action a man takes as something a man shouldn’t do because it makes you uncomfortable.
You used 2 different words o_O
dictate and shouldn’t…
you mean “cannot”
If we’re dictating then it means we want to make it something men CANNOT do…
Or you mean “You as a woman may suggest any action a man takes as something a man shouldn’t do because it makes you uncomfortable.” in which case the true is for the reverse… you have suggested all sorts of things you believe women shouldn’t do… and ppl have suggested things to you that you shouldn’t do…. what real consequences or actions from these suggestions were enforced upon you that weren’t on us and SHOULD be on us? :]
NWOslave – You can’t tell Plymouth not to talk to you.
However, you can tell Plymouth “if you talk to me, that makes me uncomfortable.” This might not be nice of you, but it’s not dictatorial or unjust–it’s just warning Plymouth that talking to you won’t get a positive reaction.
The difference is important.
NWOslave | July 7, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Plymouth, don’t talk to me unless I give you permission. It makes me uncomfortable. I guess you think just because your a woman you’re entitled to my time and attention.
If it makes you uncomfortable or creeps you out, then you are welcome to feel that way and even tell her. Whether she cares or not is up to her, unless she’s caused you physical harm or committed a crime…
Nobody has to follow Skepchick’s advice o_O She gave her opinion, Dawkins gave HIS opinion… neither has the power to enforce it on the other o_O both can be (and are) being criticized..
Hey, why don’t all of you take the comments posted and do that reverse gender thing from the other thread. If it looks like misogyny, that means your comments are misandric.
Ahh crap, I’d still be wrong. Cause everyone here in total agreement would say so.
Oh well, I’m a creep. Revel in your hatred. Misandry, love it, live it.
@Kave
My concern here is not that she is calling him a creep or not, but that countless people here are just agreeing and judging him a creep as if it’s some stone engraved fact.
So you say I’m “wrong”. What exactly am I wrong about?
NWOaf, if you truly felt that way here is the usual way to handle it:
“Plymouth, please do not talk to me any more as it makes me uncomfortable. Thank you.”
If Plymouth persisted despite this request:
“Plymouth, I said it made me uncomfortable, stop talking to me.”
If that does not get the point across:
“Plymouth, fuck off already.”
See the difference? In the first case, you have expressed your opinion in a way that is polite even if it is not very nice to hear. The second one is where Plymouth refused to accept your request and the third one is clearly showing that you are feeling threatened by this person and want to make it very clear.
@Holly exactly… like NWO told me if I don’t stop talking w/ smileys, (or before that don’t talk directly TO him) he won’t care about a thing I write xD It’s up to me to care whether that will change my behaviour. xD
If I tell him “NWO stop being dishonest here, or I won’t read what you say” it’s up to him to care too xD it’s not like as a woman I can FORCE him to do it w/ that sentence anymore than he could w/ his xD