So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
I just realised this-when Ion said he thinks something bad would happen if someone asked that, it means he was creeped out just like Ms Watson was.
To reiterate what Molly said-what exactly then is your problem?
If the hotel had a pool, they could have done splashy splashy.
Oh bullshit. You don’t need to be telepathic to realize that not saying a single word in conversation to someone all evening but then following them somewhere without anyone around where they have limited options for exit before asking them if they want to go back to your room might come across as being creepy. She was as polite as she needed to be in turning him down. That’s all the consideration she owes anybody, possibly more consideration than she owes anybody. She definitely doesn’t owe anybody her complete and utter silence on the matter.
After Katz’s earlier comment, I’m never saying yes to a coffee offer again. I might wake up in my bedroom the next day with a spoon in me.
And there’s your MRAL reference.
I just realised this-when Ion said he thinks something bad would happen if someone asked that, it means he was creeped out just like Ms Watson was.
She just thought he was sexualizing her. Ion thinks the guy might have intended to harvest organs for the black market. Seriously.
A stranger offering me coffee in his hotel room is no different than a stranger offering me candy in his van.
Geez, since when is “creepy” the worlds greatest insult, on par with a rape accusation? It’s like “ew” or “heebie jeebies”. It’s not good, but it’s really not THAT BAD either.
“Ion thinks the guy might have intended to harvest organs for the black market. Seriously.”
But that’s no reason to nearly accuse the guy of rape! He could have lost 10 years of his life to jail!
“Would you like to come back to my room with me and show me your organs?”
Nope, he just put his desire to get laid over his situational awareness. I know that doesn’t sound nearly as cool as your hyperbolic blathering, but that’s the long and short of it. He didn’t spare a second to consider how the whole setup might look, how it might make her feel trapped or intimidated or even just uneasy. *long-winded insults snipped*
Again, you just make the assumption that he wanted to ‘get laid’ as opposed to talk and have coffee. Ok, let’s assume you are right. Is it wrong to be sexually interested in someone? Let’s say no. So then it was his approach that was wrong, but he wasn’t aware of it. Tough shit, that’s how the world works. Do you walk around on eggshells every day, constantly trying to read everyone around you, for fear of – ye gods – possibly offending someone or making someone uncomfortable? Is the thought of “we’re all basically adults and we can communicate and deal with all kinds of shit without needing to treat each other with kid gloves” completely foreign to you? And don’t you think it’s a little misogynist to assume women are simply unable to do this, and need special treatment and protection?
As an aside, I do not get why our supposed champions of masculinity are such delicate little hothouse flowers that they can’t even take this kind of mild criticism. Seriously, grow some fucking backbone, knock off all this “Eeeeee! Can’t be seen buying tampons! Can’t be seen liking girly things! She said bad things about me, life is ruined now!” nonsense and maybe I might start taking this “manly tough manly man” shite seriously instead of just laughing at you.
Huh? Was that directed at me? Not sure what you’re blathering about but it sounds like a fountain that’s been waiting to erupt for a while, there…
MissPrism: Referring to the guy as a creep after a basically innocent, polite proposal was enough. There isn’t really a female equivalent, but imagine if a guy said something like “So this fat cow asked me up to her room tonight, can you imagine? Yech.” Would you still defend him just because he didn’t name her?
Yeah, Ion! Give hypothetical Elevator Girl the benefit of the doubt! She had that scalpel for a papercutting project and the ice bucket was for champagne. Are women just never supposed to talk to men at all if you look at us all as potential organ stealers blah blah blah drone blah bore.
Elevator guy should have said “I like my coffee like I like my women: hot and strong and with a spoon in them.”
You mean “hot, black and first thing in the morning”? 😉
Sorry, Ion, joke fail.
“Do you walk around on eggshells every day, constantly trying to read everyone around you, for fear of – ye gods – possibly offending someone or making someone uncomfortable?”
No. You make a mistake, you learn from it, you get on with your life. THAT’S how the world works =P
So then it was his approach that was wrong, but he wasn’t aware of it. Tough shit, that’s how the world works.
Kind of exactly our point. But now, hypothetically, he IS aware of it and can up his game next time. Sweet. Win-win.
Katz, if they’d been in THIS elevator they could have done splashy splashy without bothering to go to the pool:
It never fails. The conversation always has to go over why it really was creepy before progressing to the point that the REAL sexism here is in the reaction to Rebecca’s throwaway mention to the incident: i.e. “How DARE this woman tell us enlightened men how to behave! It’s an infringement on my First Amendment Penis!”
She was not complaining because the guy was ugly. If she had been, my opinion of her and the Fat Cow Man you’ve postulated would be the same – Fat Vow Man and Ugly Bloke Girl are being rude and nasty about someone who does not deserve it.
If a woman made a man feel objectified or fear assault, my opinion of her and of Elevator Guy would be the same. Both are at best clueless and need to think more about how to make overtures in a better context – both out of basic decency and because it’s much more likely to work.
See? In both cases, the sex of the propositioner is not the issue.
Oh bullshit. You don’t need to be telepathic to realize that not saying a single word in conversation to someone all evening but then following them somewhere without anyone around where they have limited options for exit before asking them if they want to go back to your room might come across as being creepy.
Wait, were you there with them? You seem to know an awful lot of details – more than Watson revealed, even – which sound plausible and totally not pulled out of your ass to support a tenuous straw man. I mean, I interpreted the “I’d like to talk more” line as meaning that they’d already had some interaction, but apparently in your imagination this guy is already Freddy Krueger.
I just realised this-when Ion said he thinks something bad would happen if someone asked that, it means he was creeped out just like Ms Watson was.
She just thought he was sexualizing her. Ion thinks the guy might have intended to harvest organs for the black market. Seriously.
ehh… sarcasm isn’t your strong suit, is it? There I go, overestimating your reading comprehension again.
More coffee-related humor.
I’d like a picture of this guy. I would bet you a million dollars he is ugly, and therein lies the real problem. Sure, this was a bit of an odd situation, but honestly, not really that much. A man approaches a woman he doesn’t know that well, comes onto her, gets rejected, nods and moves away. Er…. not seeing the problem. I’d say that sounds pretty standard, actually. If she’s “creeped out”, it’s almost certainly because he was someone she saw as beneath Her Lordly Highness, and she was offended that such slime would have the nerve to approach Her Highness and deign to ask her to associate with a lowly man such as her. I can fucking picture her now, gossiping to her FUCKING friends about how this slime had the audacity to even talk to her, OH HOW CREEPY!!!!! EEEEEEEE1! Fucking high pitched annoying voices Christ. But if it had been a prime male specimen like Pitt, it would have been “so romantic”, a Meet Cute, and she’d be all over him. “Creep” is slander, simply a derogatory label attached to non-perfect men (by non-perfect but entitled women) who have the nerve to think they don’t deserve to be alone, to try, to do pretty much anything. One of the conceits of modern women is that they not only feel entitled to the best physical specimens, but
Men approach women. Yeah, 4 in the morning on an elevator is unusual, but it’s not that weird. If he accepted the rejection gracefully (and he did) there is absolutely NO problem and this woman is simply an arrogant, entitled person who has labeled this man for having the nerve not to look like Brad Pitt. But given the current social climate of men as literally the sole instigators, any man who wants any sort of female interaction must approach, and if this means being “creepy”, well, the situation is women’s fault, since women are too damn lazy and entitled to approach men. If you want to change that, women, start asking men out. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
As it turns out, I like my coffee sweet, weak, and full of cream. So I generally don’t bring up my coffee preferences in elevators with women at 4 AM.
MRAL, you’re backsliding. This is why your therapist didn’t want you reading this blog.
“Let’s say no. So then it was his approach that was wrong, but he wasn’t aware of it. Tough shit, that’s how the world works. Do you walk around on eggshells every day, constantly trying to read everyone around you, for fear of – ye gods – possibly offending someone or making someone uncomfortable? Is the thought of “we’re all basically adults and we can communicate and deal with all kinds of shit without needing to treat each other with kid gloves” completely foreign to you? And don’t you think it’s a little misogynist to assume women are simply unable to do this, and need special treatment and protection?”
Yet apparently, clueless guys in elevators warrant the same level of kid-glove approach you think nobody else deserves.
“Huh? Was that directed at me? Not sure what you’re blathering about but it sounds like a fountain that’s been waiting to erupt for a while, there…”
Oh not just you, snowflake. You and every other drama-queen who can take a simple suggestion like “Be aware of the situation around you and the people you interact with” and blow it up into some Herculean task mortals are incapable of performing. I mean really, if you’re expecting me to feel sorry for you or to understand why you simply can’t take a few moments to warm up your thought goop and try to show some kind of consideration for people around you instead of falling back on this weak-ass “Hurr, tough shit” routine, don’t whine when you get called on it. Especially if your position is going to be one where you complain about how hard it is to not offend people and then follow it by (surprise!) getting massively offended by someone else. Well guess what! The rest of us on the planet aren’t really obligated to tiptoe around your delicate little feelings either. Funny how that works, isn’t it?