So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
I guess, Johny. Now I’m wondering–do genuine heterosexuals come with those tags that you can’t remove under penalty of law? Is that how you tell?
Guys…
You complain that women can’t read your mind and know that you’re a good guy?
Well, apparently you can’t read her mind and know she has every right to be distrusting.
But you don’t need to be a mind reader to show consideration for the viewpoint of others.
Why is it that being seen as creepy is so horrible? It’s like you’d sooner stick your hand in a blender than be told that you’re creepy.
Of course, I answered that earlier…for a lot of you, you interpret a woman saying “You’re creepy” or “You’re making me uncomfortable” as the same as “I think you might be a predator.”
But the question is…why is it so terrible of her to think that way? What does she owe you? You’ve never even seen her before, so why should she assume you’re a good guy?
How dare a woman get into an elevator, walk down the street, fucking exist in public and not want to be harassed or treated as a sex object! It is a crying shame! It is a compliment! .
PS Lesbians and bi people know about picking up women too, fyi. If anything, a lesbian seperatist radfem should be well versed in the trying to have sex with women area of lifeskills.
@ Bee
It’s on the nightstand. And don’t mind the basenjis, they always sit and stare intently at new people like that. There’s nothing sinister involved, and those stories you’ve heard about basenjis stealing peoples’ souls are wildly exaggerated.
Everyone take note that Mordred has yet to respond to this:
In other words, men need to hold themselves themselves to a higher standard as punishment for being men. In other words, men are treated differently for being men. In other words, that’s not the dictionary definition of feminism.
Perhaps an entry from the Feminism101 blog could help clarify my position:
Wait, so you’re using quotes from a feminist site to bolster your feminist position? Lol.
@ hellkell
Not a tag, we come with a certificate of authenticity, like those commemorative coins you get from the Franklin Mint.
Thomas: “Lol. Yeah, nobody paid attention to Rebecca, that’s why this total non-event was discussed on several blogs with literally thousands of comments.”
Paying attention to Rebecca =/ paying attention to what she said.
I mean, seriously. You’ve got one guy who listened to her discussion of how she feels the overwhelming predatory nature of atheist groups is keeping women away, and how she herself doesn’t like being hit on in those settings, and he said, “OH, I know. I will hit on her.”
You have another guy who watched a video in which she said a few sentences about how that made her feel, pointedly not comparing the experience to FGM or rape or oppression of women around the world, and he dismissed her point of view as ridiculous by implying that she thought being hit on in an elevator is as bad as FGM when it’s not.
They were paying attention to her, all right, but not to anything she actually said.
Is the Book of Mordred really Julie Bindel?
@Johnny Pez:
Can you collect the whole set and win valuable prizes?
MRAL, it would be more accurate to say that men ought to hold themselves to a higher standard, in recognition of the fact — and it is a fact — that women are disproportionately the victims of sexual assault.
Now, on to the next question. Why are women disproportionately the victims of sexual assault? Anyone?
How dare a woman get into an elevator, walk down the street, fucking exist in public and not want to be harassed or treated as a sex object! It is a crying shame!
“I enjoyed your talk. Would you like to have a cup of coffee in my room?” = harassed and treated as a sex object, apparently. But yeah, we’re the ones with the distorted perception of reality.
Well, I disagree with that.
I WILL NOT accept discrimination based on gender.
Well, bear in mind, hellkell, you only want to collect the alpha men. The others are just so much dross.
Ion, a woman’s safety is *everything*. No woman should ever be subjected to non-asexual attention if she does not want to be. And if you can’t wrap your head around the fact that, without judging what the man actually thought, that asking a woman TO HIS ROOM, for “coffee,” does sound more than a little suspect, then I think your lack of common sense is more depressing than your MRA sympathies.
MRAL, so the fact — and it is a fact — that women are disproportionately victims of sexual assault cuts no ice with you. You don’t see any value in cutting them some slack on that basis?
No woman should ever be subjected to non-asexual attention if she does not want to be.
Since the human race sadly lacks telepathic abilities, how to you propose to inform men precisely when women desire and do not desire “non-asexual attention”?
Anything it takes, right? After all, we exist only to please women and make them comfortable.
Ion; OK, so he didn’t insult her intelligence, disrespect her, or ignore her talk. You’re right, those are loaded words.
He attended a panel discussion at a conference where she, an invited expert, spoke at length about her experiences as a woman in atheism, and how some of those experiences have involved being hit on and sexualized, and how she doesn’t like that. Then, he hit on her.
We don’t know exactly what his deal is, since she didn’t name him, and he hasn’t come forward (that I know of). Perhaps he has a disability or there is some other explanation, although honestly (outside of hearing loss) I can’t think of what it is. But you’re right. We should leave the door open for the obvious alternate explanation of … whatever. (Ignoring that what I was talking about was not necessarily his subjective intentions but also the effect his actions had on the other person involved in the situation.)
“Can’t accept discrimination based on gender” is quite a laugh coming from a guy who said “she was creeped out just because he didn’t get her pussy wet.”
You are not so high minded, son.
MRAL, so the fact — and it is a fact — that women are disproportionately victims of sexual assault cuts no ice with you. You don’t see any value in cutting them some slack on that basis?
Damn my stutter.
I would like to again note that the Book of Mordred has yet to respond to this:
,i>In other words, men need to hold themselves themselves to a higher standard as punishment for being men. In other words, men are treated differently for being men. In other words, that’s not the dictionary definition of feminism.
Note the cowardly, deflecting behavior, very typical of hardcore feminists in their natural habitat.
Ion, a woman’s safety is *everything*. No woman should ever be subjected to non-asexual attention if she does not want to be.
I’d say no person at all, man or woman, should be subjected to non-asexual attention if they don’t want to be. But since men are still overwhelmingly the ones who have to approach, how do you solve that? I’d say just go for it and expect that whatever happens, both of you as a adults will be able to handle it. Apparently people here think this is wrong.
MRAL, so the fact — and it is a fact — that women are disproportionately victims of sexual assault cuts no ice with you. You don’t see any value in cutting them some slack on that basis?
Let’s look at another fact. If white people are overwhelmingly the victims of robbery by black people, does it mean whites should look upon blacks with distrust, and it should be all black people’s role to make white people comfortable and not appear threatening?
Careful, MRAL, you’re starting to sound like a feminist.
Would you prefer nobody ever approached you – no matter what outfit you wear and no matter how you pose? Never any attention or attraction?
I WOULD prefer not getting hit on, because aside from one guy, with whom I had a really interesting conversation before he indicated interest in me, and who took my statement that I was engaged in stride and continued to have a great chat with me … every other time I’ve been hit on it’s been in a way that was not so much AWKWARD as it was humiliating, offensive, scary, boundary pushing, etc.
So yes, I’d be perfectly happy if I had to be the one to take initiative all the time. Because except for one time, being hit on has never felt like a compliment. It’s felt like harassment. It’s not a positive experience.
I’m sorry that you feel that having to take initiative is a burden, Ion, but personally I’ve always enjoyed asking men and women out, and I generally get yesses, but when it’s a no, I move on. So much more fun than getting stalked across campus or fondled at work or the many other ways men have “complimented” me by hitting on me…