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Two atheists get in an elevator

So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:

Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?

Then Richard Dawkins says,

Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:

Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.

Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?

In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)

The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing.  Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.

The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were.  Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):

So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’

Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.

That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:

What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?

Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies.  She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning.  Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.

Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist  pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.

Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:

I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”

In a followup post, she noted:

When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.

And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.

Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.

They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.

And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:

I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

She didn’t shut up.

So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.

Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.

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Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
13 years ago

my therapist told me to get a blog, I think I’m going to make this subject post #1. Also, the term “USian” is grounds for immediate banning.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
13 years ago

@MRAL:

Have fun!

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

I just find the term USian to be offensive. OK?? Haha. Everyone is allowed their quirks.

That’s better. At least you’re owning it as your quirk. Nothing wrong with that.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
13 years ago

ithiliana, that’s pretty damned awesome. It would be nice if more people stood up for what’s right like that.

The word “American” is so ingrained in my mind as referring to USians, it bothers me to be referred to as “American”. It feels like I’m being associated with the USA.
That’s one of the weird and wonderful things about language, how it affects different people.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
13 years ago

MRAL, there is no parallel between the term USian and the racial slur “n*gger.”

There just isn’t.

“USian” is not a racial slur; it isn’t a slur at all. It’s a different way of referring to someone who is a citizen of the United States of America. No one is compelling to use the term or to accept the term. And no one will ever show up at your home in the middle night, burn a cross on your land, and demand that you bring your “USian ass” out of the house.

You know, it’s okay not to like things. It’s very easy to simply dislike, or even disapprove, of something -a term, a color, a poem, a song- without making it a really big deal. You’re young. Save up some of that outrage. You’re going to give yourself a heart attack.

zombie rotten mcdonald
13 years ago

And I would agree. It sends a bad message.

I don’t think they’ve asked for your opinion on it.

Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

Hey man, it’s your blog.

Actually, I’m sort of curious to see what’s on it.

(And honestly, I generally say “American.” I’m just not bothered by “USian.”)

swallows
swallows
13 years ago

I mean danzig from the misfits and blag dahlia from dwarves, BTW. And yeah, I have heard this conversation. so many times, in fact, I wonder when the last time some of these people bought a record was.

Plymouth
Plymouth
13 years ago

Uh, I think every other person from the US here who has spoken up says we are fine with being called “USians”, so I really don’t get your beef. Yes, if a group of people says “don’t call us that” it’s polite not to call them that, but even outside of this blog I have not heard of any rallying cry against the term “USian”. It’s just not even on the radar.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

Men’s Rights Activist Lieutenant | July 6, 2011 at 11:24 pm
WHY WHY WHY you’re so annoying! I just find the term USian to be offensive. OK?? Haha. Everyone is allowed their quirks.

I’m just asking you b/c you didn’t SAY that, you said this:

Men’s Rights Activist Lieutenant | July 6, 2011 at 11:01 pm
Ami, I think that all AMERICANS should object to the term out of principle. It’s derogatory and stupid, and not our name.

*all* *should* *out of principle* *derogatory and stupid*

Men’s Rights Activist Lieutenant | July 6, 2011 at 10:51 pm
Quite honestly I think that any AMERICAN who bows before the politically correct douchebags and allows themselves to be called “USian” is an unpatriotic asshole.

*any* *is an unpatriotic asshole*

so I’m merely asking you why you believe this is MORE than just a personal quirk of what bothers YOU, you want it to apply to everybody, and you believe ppl who do not are unpatriotic, and that the term is derogatory xD so I’m asking you why they are unpatriotic, and why it is derogatory? o_O I’m wondering why you believe these things?

so basically your answer is “it’s just a personal quirk” so there actually is no reason? :3 (why didn’t you just SAY so? xD)

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
13 years ago

Actually that doesn’t make sense, because the post is about USian vs. American and debate is ok. But outside of post #1, USian is banned.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

Henceforth I will respect MRAL’s wishes, in part, and refrain from referring to him as USian. I will furthermore refrain from using it on his blog, should I ever decide to comment there.

(No big sacrifice, since I’ve never used it before just now anyway.)

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

I can’t wait for the MRAL blog xD I’m glad that his therapist agrees w/ me :3 (maybe he’s sekritly me) xD

I was actually hoping he’d have an alternate history of the world for a reason why USan is historically oppressive to Americans xD

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
13 years ago

It’s a personal quirk in that I don’t like to see other people using it. I know I can’t stop them.

zombie rotten mcdonald
13 years ago

wait, is it USans? I thought it was USians.

I want to be correct in my derogation.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

It’s a personal quirk in that I don’t like to see other people using it. I know I can’t stop them.

Fair enough.

Molly Ren
13 years ago

*floats alone in hippo pool* Hrmpth.

Plymouth
Plymouth
13 years ago

From now on I demand to be referred to as an Ameriskank. All other terms will be deemed offensive and unpatriotic if used in my presense.

(not really)

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
13 years ago

You know, I was working on the blog today, it’s a bigger pain in the ass to set up than I thought. I’m not paying 30 bucks or whatever to design a custom theme, so I’m using Twenty Ten. Designing a header that doesn’t look like crap is hard.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
13 years ago

@zombie rotten mcdonald:

It’s an endearing term, like young’ans

zombie rotten mcdonald
13 years ago

I prefer to be referred to as “Necro-USian”.

We only use “Shambler” among other Necro-USians. It’s offensive when you breathers do it.

ithiliana
13 years ago

MRAL: You’re right, but that doesn’t mean we should be encouraging that shit.

As Tonto once said to the Lone Ranger in an old joke, “what do you mean WE, white man?”

You can find the term personally offensive all you want.

But you have no authority to dictate what other people do or do not use to name themselves, nor is your personal approval or encouragement in the least important to the vast majority of people in this world and in this country who can point out the flaws and oppressions this country has engaged in, all the ways in which we’ve not lived up to our ideals.

You don’t like being called names–but you use derogatory terms for other groups/people-I as again, why is that?

Johnny Pez
13 years ago

MRAL, I didn’t bother with any of that. Signed up with Blogger (free), picked a theme (free), and started posting. The rest is just window dressing.

Plymouth
Plymouth
13 years ago

How do you feel about “undead”? Or is that offensive because it can also refer to vampires?

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

I was going to poke him more but I think I’ll leave him alone and go back to snuggling nakedly w/ Kirby…

>_>

wait I dun think I was supposed to say that out loud…

xD

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