So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
awww 😀
*big hugs to all!*
http://www.shopgarageonline.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11500334#colorId_1143489
i got this today! 😀
I am not okay in any way, shape or form with being called a “USian”, “USer” or anything other than my proper title, AMERICAN.
As a gringo new to South America, I have noticed that most people here will also identify as an American. Granted, it’s not a big deal nor is it their first form of self identification, which is national. When I say, “Oh, me? I’m American” (out of habit), they tend to role their eyes a bit. It doesn’t really tell them anything; they just want know if I’m from the US or Canada.
I am a Californian…no matter how long I have been living outside the state.
@MRAL:
You’ve made that abundantly clear. And nobody has ever called you a USian… so.. yeah.
Elizabeth, I agree, I am a Californian as well, what part are you from?
I am not okay in any way, shape or form with being called a “fymynyst”, “feminazi” or anything other than my proper title, FEMINIST.
Quite honestly I think that any AMERICAN who bows before the politically correct douchebags and allows themselves to be called “USian” is an unpatriotic asshole.
Born in Balboa Park, San Diego and raised in Chula Vista.
Doesn’t surprise me about Dawkins’; he praised Christina Hoff Sommers. And don’t you just love these people who use the oppression of women in Islamist countries to justify the way Western women are treated? Obviously we have it better – a lot better – than women in Islamist countries; that does not fucking mean non-feminists get to deny or minimize the inequalities here. Reminds me of an abuser using a case where someone’s partner beat hir within an inch of hir life to justify a slap in the face.
Why MRAL? It is actually a better description of the United States citizens then American…
@MRAL:
And now you’ve gone from “I have an opinion about what I should call myself” to “I want to dictate what other people call themselves.” Congrats, here’s your douche award.
I know I’m late to the party, but I’d like to repeat something, mostly for Ion and MRAL’s benefit.
If Brad Pitt (whom I don’t find attractive but apparently the whole MRM has a giant huge man-crush on) corners me in an elevator and is leering at me and suggesting that I should have sex with him in such a way that makes it clear that my saying ‘no’ is beyond his comprehension… I’m going to get creeped out.
Let me repeat that again, just so you get it.
If Brad Pitt is a creep to me, I will get creeped out
It has nothing to do with how attractive or unattractive a guy is. He can be the hottest man ever put on this green Earth, but if he’s a douchebag and treats me like shit, I’m not going to want a damn thing to do with him. He could have washboard abs, a voice like honey dripping over a knife blade, hips like an underwear model, a cock like Thor’s and a tongue like Gene Simmons… but if he treats me like scum, I’m going to lose his number and stop answering his phone calls.
Creepy is not and never has been about appearance, it is about behavior. Men like to pretend that it is, because it’s easier for them to do that. If a woman calls them or their behavior creepy, they can shrug it off and make it all about looks; rather than having to do the difficult work of examining their behavior for signs of creepitude. Because that would mean taking a woman seriously, and that’s Just Not Done.
MRAL, I understand that *you* don’t want to be called anything other than American, but it’s not quite right to say that it is your “proper title”. The new lands found by Spaniards, then consisting mostly of Central America and the Caribbean islands, were named after Amerigo Vespucci, partly because he made the maps and so had the power to name stuff. The name refers to the entire continent of North, Central and South America. Also, the USA is not the only country that has “America” in the name–the official name of Mexico is “The Mexican States of America”. No one is calling you a name you don’t want to be called, just keep in mind that we who are in/from the USA are *not* the only ones who get to use the title “American”.
Men’s Rights Activist Lieutenant | July 6, 2011 at 10:51 pm
Quite honestly I think that any AMERICAN who bows before the politically correct douchebags and allows themselves to be called “USian” is an unpatriotic asshole.
and there we go… -_-
what about US/Americans who are OKAY w/ US/Americans who allow themselves to be called USians? should every US/American who doesn’t stand up and decry them as unpatriotic (as you did) also be decried as unpatriotic? xD
Born in Balboa Park, San Diego and raised in Chula Vista.
Cool, I love that area, I’m from Nor Cal myself.
Quite honestly I think that any FEMINIST who bows before the sexist douchebags and allows themselves to be called “fymynyst” is a self-hating asshole.
I’m American and USian, the way someone can be European and also French. They’re both just geographical descriptors.
(The United States–hence US–is what the founding fathers named this country! Damn right that’s patriotic!)
But really, this just isn’t emotional for me, and it sort of weirds me out that it is for anyone else. If you called me “Asian” or “Nigerian,” or “Glorphimudian,” that would be weird because it wasn’t accurate, but still it wouldn’t make me angry.
What’s odd is this obsession w/ Brad Pitt… I mean the trolls/MRAs tend to keep current in the women they use… they say Megan Fox, not Cindy Crawford… but it’s like they haven’t changed their idea of “ideal man” since the 90s xD
the official name of Mexico is “The Mexican States of America”.
No, it’s not.
MRAL, you’re right, I misspoke. However, I still argue that American is not a title that only people from or in the USA can use.
Ami, I think that all AMERICANS should object to the term out of principle. It’s derogatory and stupid, and not our name.
MRAL is right–the official name of Mexico is “Estados Unidos Mexicanos.”
…”The United States of Mexico.”
From it’s Wiki: Mexico oficialmente llamado Estados Unidos Mexicanos, es un país situado en la parte meridional de América del Norte.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9xico