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creepy feminism hypocrisy misogyny oppressed men patriarchy rape reactionary bullshit sexual harassment threats

Two atheists get in an elevator

So hereโ€™s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:

Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, whoโ€™s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and arenโ€™t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?

Then Richard Dawkins says,

Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:

Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.

Damn. That joke didnโ€™t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?

In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiryโ€™s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)

The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing.ย  Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.

The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watsonโ€™s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. ย Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):

So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’

Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.

Thatโ€™s it. Thatโ€™s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman youโ€™ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watsonโ€™s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:

What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?

Never mind that she didnโ€™t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkinsโ€™ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of womenโ€™s rights in Islamist theocracies. ย She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. ย Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.

Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist ย pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just arenโ€™t funny. Not that heโ€™s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women โ€“ including the one I quoted above.

Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:

I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just donโ€™t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, โ€œIf something were to happen to me and these women wonโ€™t stand up for me, who will?โ€

In a followup post, she noted:

When I started this site, I didnโ€™t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.

And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from โ€œNo, theyโ€™re not logical like us,โ€ to โ€œYes, so we can fuck them!โ€ That seemed weird.

Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community whoโ€™d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.

They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didnโ€™t fully get it at the time, because I didnโ€™t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.

And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:

Iโ€™ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what theyโ€™d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who donโ€™t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

She didnโ€™t shut up.

So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.

Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkinsโ€™ patronizing little screed โ€“ which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. Itโ€™s kind of inspiring, really.

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zombie rotten mcdonald
13 years ago

So NWOslave is back, but still on moderation. He wrote a long and very NWOslavey comment which I just freed from moderation; go back a page, and youโ€™ll find it near the bottom.

Slaver’s comment is a bottom too?

I didn’t miss him; but then, I’ve been off. He’s vile, repetitive, and can’t stick to his “Oh, I am just a poor man, you are all such wise women” schtick, even within the same post. Ion and MRAL have really taken up the slack, haven’t they?

hellkell
hellkell
13 years ago

USian! USian! AHAHAHAHAHA!

sarahejones
13 years ago

I’m actually not a fan of “USian” either. If someone chooses to use it to identify themselves, go for it. I don’t.

hellkell
hellkell
13 years ago

I wouldn’t give Ion and MRAL enough credit to say they’ve taken up the slack. NWO, as much as I can’t stand him, is one-of-a-kind. Well, sort of. We feed him, I guess we should keep him.

Jen
Jen
13 years ago

I completely agree with Miss Watson. I have been sexually assaulted multiple times and though I want to believe that men who are attracted to me mean me no harm, painful experience tells me otherwise.

So yes, if a strange man were to propose, in the dead of night, that I go with him where we are alone, even just to talk, I will be extremely wary. If I like him back, I will probably draw us discreetly to a more public venue, if possible. Then I will suggest we meet up again, in the daytime, and in a busy public place to talk. If I don’t want to meet up with him period, he needs to back off immediately. No means no.

Why is that considered so awful?

Though I really should have expected as much from a guy (Dawkins), who wrote a book called The God Delusion. Despite believing in God I (gasp!) still have a working brain and was thinking about reading Mr. Dawkins’ book for a different viewpoint. Now I can see it’d be best if I passed it up.

ithiliana
13 years ago

MRAL: Start using the term USian!

Don’t like me saying that? Then don’t order other people to use language based on your preferences.

I am one of the people who uses USian often online–it’s useful in an international fandom, shorter to type than American, and I found out when I visited Canada that I felt v. uncomfortable using “American” as if USians were the only ones.

Johnny Pez
13 years ago

Another point to consider: NWO collects blog bans the way other people collect postage stamps. Getting banned from Man Boobz would be a real feather in his cap.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

I notice that w/o NWO nuance is starting to creep back into discussions xD

Molly Ren
13 years ago

Ami, really? Where? ๐Ÿ˜›

sarahejones
13 years ago

Yeah, I don’t believe I have the right to tell people to stop using USian. Just don’t use it to refer to me. I strongly dislike it.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
13 years ago

ithiliana, as a Canadian, personally I wouldn’t be offended if you use “American” when referring to USians. Honestly, I don’t know anyone who refers to USians as anything but “Americans” and wasn’t even aware there was a concern until getting online and first seeing “USians”.

speedlines
speedlines
13 years ago

Nobody could ever take up the slack from NWO. He’s his own special kind of crazy.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

Actually Johnny, I think being banned BOTHERS him cuz he likes having a platform xD (his whole “I know you’ll ban me!” thing is one of those reverse psychology bluff things xD “go ahead prove I’m right that you’re all Nazis!”) But I think more than a feather in his cap is my head on his wall xD So I think he’d prefer to be unbanned so he can get revenge on me for how bad he’s looked so far in his little obsession w/ teh Rodeo Cat xD (also that apparently for the third time he’s gone back on his “I’M NEVER CARING ABOUT YOU AGAIN” thing xD )

Again this is about what other ppl want :3 I find his little fixation w/ me as the VILEST PERSON HERE hilarious xD and I still do wanna know what he thinks I’m doing to “trample” straight cis guys xD

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

@Molly Ren this discussion of Americans vs USians for one xD

zombie rotten mcdonald
13 years ago

me as the VILEST PERSON HERE

Are you disputing that?

let’s see if I can do this thing: XD

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

Well Emcee may disagree… he thinks I’m CRUEL xD

I just want to know what real damage NWO thinks i’m causing.. cuz he thinks I’m harming real straight cis men… but if that’s TRUE, shouldn’t i be stopped or killed? o_O this transcends just “somebody on the internet is wrong” doesn’t it? xD

Johnny Pez
13 years ago

“Ami Angelwings, why can’t I quit you?”

I admit I’ve often wondered about that myself.

Related question: why can’t I own a Canadian?

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
13 years ago

Johnny Pez, you don’t want one of us. We’re near impossible to housebreak…

Xtra
13 years ago

“So, giant trans spider robots. Any other requests?

ZOMBIES.

i mean, duh.”

Instead of saying, “BRains!” do feminist zombies say, “Raaaaaape!”? And what would a MRA zombie say?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
13 years ago

@Johnny Pez:

Aww, its not that hard… I know I’ve been very happy with my Canadian. *scritches Ami behind the ears* They really are quite lovable, even if sometimes they do get a little rambunctious.

Molly Ren
13 years ago

Xtra: “Gaaaaame! Gaaaaame!”

Molly Ren
13 years ago

Aww, now I want a Canadian. ๐Ÿ™

Johnny Pez
13 years ago

kirbywarp, you and I both know that Ami is the VILEST PERSON HERE. Your attempt at a coverup will avail you naught.

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

*purrs and nuzzles Kirby and runs around him in circles* meow meow meow! ๐Ÿ˜€ *tackles Kirby and licks and nibbles him*

I luff my US/Americ-an too ๐Ÿ˜€

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