So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc — Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
NWO, did I say ALL men are creeps? No, just those who approach me at zero dark thirty saying or doing rude shit.
RELEASE THE IDIOT!!!!!
Eh, if you want David. If he can keep the his bullshit to a dull (very dull) roar.
I’m fine with NWO coming back, but I defer to others. I’m just disappointed that he didn’t mention me at all in his screed…
Or wait… failure to refute means… OMG! NWO AGREES WITH ME! ^__^ I never knew NWO was so enlightened, he must just be trolling everyone so that we don’t doubt his identity when he turns around.
Hmmm. A heel-face turn by NWOslave.
Hmmmmmm . . .
@Kirby: I felt rather special when I saw my name.
As has been stated previously, this woman didn’t send out an edict to put in the Massive GayFeminist Agenda. She didn’t name the guy or target him directly. All she did was talk about her feelings about what happened to her. Now it’s the next huge battle in Women Taking Over The World, Even Elevators.
So I guess that even talking about something that isn’t related to the MRM means being against the MRM. Huh. Hope Ion and NWOslave don’t see my cooking blog (if I ever get it started, that is). Or my friend’s Harry Potter tumblr. I’ve hear that there are whole websites dedicated to stuff like Buddhism! And knitting!
What was someone saying about trans robots?
Personally, I missed him.
@speedlines wrote, “Personally, I missed him.”
Aww, Slavey, see? We’re not just mean old feminist bitches. C’mere, you– *hug*
Giant trans spider robots. Of DOOOOM!
@David Eh, let him out. Especially if it means Spearhafoc will start posting more frequently again.
@Ami If you see this, card? I’m a biochemistry graduate student (going for a Ph.D.) if that helps at all.
And, as a upper middle class white dude, I somehow have never had in issue with changing a behavior when a woman says that the behavior makes her uncomfortable. And I’ve only considered myself a feminist for at best a few months. Am I broken? I might be broken.
I am getting laid, though, so whatever XD.
Well, now you’ve done it, Molly Ren. You’ve given him feminist cooties. Now he’s going to have to scrub himself down with lye.
Aww, Johnny, I was just trying to help. 🙁
If you free NWO he’s gonna just go right back after me xD He apparently went back on his “if you use smileys i won’t answer you” thing after just ONE DAY xD But it’s up to everybody else :] I mean some ppl miss him, and some ppl don’t… and he was banned cuz David thought he broke the rules (even tho I wanted him there xD ) so… is he never gonna be banned again now? Cuz he’s still going to break the rules.. o_O;;
And do ppl WANT him back, cuz y’know.. the derail thing xD do ppl like the comm better w/o him? o_O
If it’s just about ME, I’M fine xD I find his obsession w/ me hilarious (and as he said, I’m an egomaniac xD ) and well… I AM the rodeo cat xD I wonder what he’d do if he were permanently banned? o_O Track me down to my blog? xD troll someplace else? xD
But I also care about the happiness of others (and since he was banned in good faith, it’s rly about making an EXCEPTION for him, not some sort of draconian dictate xD )
but ppl should not be afraid that we’d think less of them if they dun want him back : I understand that while I find him hilarious, given the reactions to him attacking me last time, it offends ppl : So I dun wanna be selfish :3
But personally? I know he hates me xD and I still want to know what makes me SOOOOO vile and whether he believes I should be killed or stopped if I’m harming real ppl xD
If it’s just about ME? xD Ppl know my vote xD
Giant trans spider robots. Of DOOOOM!
Sounds way better than seeing Transformers 3. BTW, why are all the characters in Transformers cis anyway? It’s right there in the title, could be a good learning opportunity for groups of people who aren’t often exposed to positive or even neutral images of trans ppl. Or trans robots. Of doom.
There’s actually a shirt like that w/ the autobot logo and “Transsexuals: more than meets the eye”.. some trans ppl I know love it, others don’t xD
I guess it’s all in the eye of the transformer…
The giant mechanical trans spiders is a joke that I brought up in an earlier thread btw.. that came from something a transphobic “radfem” said once:
http://ami-rants.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-happens-when-transphobes.html
there xD
and the vision I had of Matrix like spiders harvesting cis women in some post apocalyptic future xD
Ami, I think he thinks you’re an agent of the Evil Gubmint. The fact that you’re not even a USian is ALL PART OF THE CONSPIRACY.
That’s assuming he’s noticed that your a foreign foreigner from foreign parts. He might not have, he’s a bit of a thicky.
NWOSlave? Sure, why not, my teeth were starting to get dull.
Hey Oaf, how many lies have you told today?
Stop using the term “USian”.
Yeah, NWO is kind of a member of the Manboobz family–a dysfunctional, homophobic, crazy, alcoholic family member who sometimes has to have the cops called on him in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner (or, as we call him in my family “Uncle Larry”), but a family member nevertheless.
I say, let Ami decide.
NWO is sort of hilarious–and I think his slurs kind of slide off the regulars here because “aw heck, it’s just ol’ NWO, he’s just doing his thing“–but he is the worst sort of derail.
Everything he says is wrong, but just sincere enough that everyone (self extremely included) feels they should stop and respond to it, and thus the entire thread turns into “women: horrible monsters, or horriblest monsters?” instead of whatever it was actually about.
In the spirit of actually talking about elevators and how men approach strange women and the issues of entitlement and misperception at play here–I say keep him on strict moderation or just show him the goddamn door already.
What term should we use MRAL? “American” connotates more than citizens of the USA, even if you don’t understand why.
Ami is an American (she’s Canadian), but not a citizen of the US, so specificity is called for in this case.
I guess what it really comes down to is, are the thread derails by trolls a bug or a feature?
As a non-USian denizen of North America, I’ve always disliked being called “American” because it’s pretty much universally understood to be referring to USians. I’m happy with “North American”, but not “American”.
It’s kinda like how “Kleenex” pretty much refers to any facial tissue now, despite really only actually meaning Kleenex’s own brand.
That aside, ordering someone to stop using a non-offensive word is just silly.
Also, band-aids even though that was a name brand…actually still is.