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internal debate MRA

MRA: Thomas Ball is no martyr

Not everyone in the MRM is hailing Thomas Ball as a martyr. Here’s what the blogger at Rise of the Zeta Male has to say on the subject:

What happened was a tragedy, and he absolutely should be honored for his fight. But at the end of the day, I still think his methods, and advocacy for violence (see the Molotov cocktail section) are wrong. The only thing violence breeds is more violence, and I am not going to excuse that, just because he proves a point I stand by. This was not an act of self defense, it was not an act of selfishness, it was an act of self destructive protest and it is a great tragedy.

I don’t often agree with what’s posted at Zeta Male – I’m not sure I’ve ever agreed with anything he’s said previously – and there are things in this comment and the rest of the post that I think are problematic. But I have to give the blogger credit for taking a principled stance on this issue, and one that is distinctly unpopular amongst MRAs online.

 

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Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

@NWOslave

Or mandatory joint custody, which would completely eliminate any money aspect of divorce and childcare.

(Sigh!) No, no it wouldn’t. Even in joint custody situations, child support is primarily determined by % of time child is with each parent and the relative incomes of both parents. My understanding is that only in a situation where both parents make identical amounts of money and have exactly equal visitation would there even be theoretically the possibility of no child support, even with joint custody.

Is that correct, legal eagles? Darksidecat?

KristinMH
10 years ago

Guys, I think NWO is developing a conspiracy theory…about US!

How else do you explain the Feministe comment? He thinks Feministe foots Manboobz’ bills. What bills, you might ask, since David says this site costs him nothing?

Why, all of US, you see. The evil richy-rich OverLadies of Feministe are *clearly* paying all of us exorbitant sums to make the Manosphere look bad online. Or something. Look, who understands why they’re paying us? As long as it’s enough for a pedicure or two a day that’s all we care about, since we just manipulate betas into paying for our basic needs in between stints on the alpha cock carousel and riding around in elevators being bitches.

*sigh*…Since we’re all out in the open, on behalf of Ami, BrettK, Spear, and all other Canadian Manboobz, I hereby request a 20% bonus. We haven’t gotten a cheque in WEEKS due to the postal strike.

KristinMH
10 years ago

Also, JohnnyPez, I *love* the story. We should incorporate it into the game somehow. Do Magyc games involve elaborate backstories like D&D-type games do? Can you play different stories with the same deck?

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

@KristinMH you can play w/e cards you want in any deck… tho ppl tend to stick to a playing 1-3 colours (b/c otherwise it’s hard to handle the mana)… some ppl play themed decks (knights, goblins, etc) and sometimes ppl try to do a story theme deck tho more for fun than effectiveness (i did that once xD )

magyc sets didn’t use to involve elaborate backstories, but they’ve evolved so every set has it’s own story (and they write novels about them xD )

I’ve always liked the idea of telling a story THRU the cards, thru the artwork chosen and in the flavor text… ppl get an idea of the world, and start filling in the blanks in between (kinda like not showing the whole monster in a horror movie) :3 and that’s what I’m trying to do here

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Kristin, I based the story on Ami’s cards, and on the backstory she created for them. All the basic concepts are hers. I don’t know if a coherent backstory is SOP for sets of Magic cards, that’s Ami’s speciality.

If you’re into creative writing, you should write your own story. It’s a lot of fun, and I’ll be writing part 2 of mine Real Soon Now.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I just realized I spelled Magic, Magyc xD

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Force of habit, Ami.

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Also too, I’ve never been the subject of a conspiracy theory before. It’s kinda cool. I feel like I’ve become the Grassy Knoll.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Hey The Zeta Male contacted me on my blog, to explain his position (and clarify it) on Ball and correct me about the definition of Zeta Male… he seems very nice 🙂 And I appreciate having the definition corrected (i presume this is about the cards) :]

Molly Ren
10 years ago

KristinMH, I *never* got my check! Who do I need to blow? 😛

Kave
Kave
10 years ago

What mra’s keep forgetting is child support and divorces are most often worked out without even going to court. When our kids were young both my wife and I were happy to pay child support to our ex spouses….why? Because it was in the best interest of our children for them to be in the care of their primary caregiver instead of a live-in nanny and frankly in the scheme of things it was cheaper. Childcare is not free, it’s a simple thing that mra’s have no concept of.

I have a friend with 50/50 joint custody whose a sales regional manager. He is grateful to his staff that they do not snitch on him for bringing his kid to meetings etc. If he was just a sales person he would have lost his job because of the demands of parenting. KIds are not dogs that you can just leave in the yard all day while you are at work.

And Ami I do think I’m the perfect example of the Rockerfeller type who is financing feminism in my grand scheme to take over the world. Forget that my wife who is a real estate developer also runs a non-profit 37 apartment for men that were homeless. I’m quite thin but would be ok being portrayed as the fat cat. One of our daughters is the geek child heavily into gaming… I think she’d be impressed that dad had a card.

Pam
Pam
10 years ago

Or mandatory joint custody, which would completely eliminate any money aspect of divorce and childcare

So then, is the primary concern the best interests of the child or the best interests of the wallet?

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

@SallyStrange…All you ever offer is hatred, mockery and misandry. I doubt that’ll ever change.

@Pam …Gender roles aren’t viewed thru a narrow lens, they’re a fact of life. You’re simply trying to legitimize you beloved LGBTQ constuct. No one should ever get any “leave” or “mandatory time” or anything from the State for childcare/rearing of any kind.

@Ami Angelwings…There simply is natural gender roles, just because you/feminists want to reconstruct society into an unnatural communist, genderless society, doesn’t make it so. The only hardship men face is laws endorsed by women and the hatred of men, (misandry), so prevelant in society. The problem is the “gender roles” it’s your endorsement of hatred for being born a man.

@Skyal…Your hatred rant is truely epic. Your entire screed was pure feminism. Tell me does the child’s rights include equal access to both parents? Or is a father only good for the cash?

@kirbywarp…Gender isn’t neutral, so when someone makes that point, whatever point they follow up with is based on an error.

@Victoria von Syrus…In the 17.4% that you site that the father was given primary custody; this was predicated on the womans say so. Her word in court is what allowed that to occur. Women get default custody in any dispute. Men have to fight for custody in any dispute. This can easily be seen by the fact that if a dispute takes place the child/children remain in “her” custody until the “battle” is over. Also your use of “hir” as a genderless automaton is meaningless and indicitive of feminist-speak.

@Captain Bathrobe…Take all money out of the equation. Equal custody. Period. If you can’t do that, than you believe only women are entitled to having children as part of “their” family.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

The Zeta Male cards are being taken down btw until I can redo them to better fit what a Zeta Male is 🙂

I appreciate him caring :]

Also that was a v fast flounce return from NWO xD CYA LOSERS, OH WAIT HAI AGAIN!

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I’m amused he’s responding to me again xD He runs so hot and cold xD I’m not reading what you’re saying cuz you write funny! ARGH STOP TALKING ABOUT ME FINE RAWRRR!!!! xD I love how I got into his head so fast xD

The problem is the “gender roles” it’s your endorsement of hatred for being born a man.

o_O Spearhafoc, can you clean that sentence up a bit so I understand what he means?

I’m trying to parse it…

ok does he mean that The problem is that the IDEA of “gender roles” is proof of my endorsement of hatred of men? o_O Or is he referring to something trans related? o_O

Hay, NWO what are natural gender roles? Do they apply wholesale? 😮 And if they’re not taught, how do we know them? Are they passed thru the genetics? o_O So everybody with XY should have similar likes/dislikes/etc? o_o

Can you give us a comprehensive list of what’s fixed “natural” gender roles for men and women? Like specific, not general … b/c I know you like to be vague cuz you’re afraid of being pinned down xD

Also if ppl naturally dun want to do things, why are they doing it? 😮

Since you’ve decided you can read me suddenly again xD I’m going to take advantage of it :] You talk a lot but you always dance around how the world actually works : So I rly want to know, lay it out, and then we can understand 🙂

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@NWO:

Hey.. So.. just wondering. What are the natural gender roles for males and females in a modern society? And could you provide an explanation for each role, why they must necessarily be attributed to each gender? Thanks.

I say modern for a reason. Societies change, and modern socitey offers unique advantages that weren’t available in the past. For instance, in the past it was necessary to find one trade, apprentice to it, and stick with it. Every person in a village needed to provide some physical good. In modern times, now that companies can operate in multiple places, men and women don’t need to take local jobs. So saying “In pre-civilized times, men were the hunters and women were the child-carers” is not a valid argument, since we don’t live in pre-civilized times anymore.

Victoria von Syrus
Victoria von Syrus
10 years ago

@Victoria von Syrus…In the 17.4% that you site that the father was given primary custody; this was predicated on the womans say so. Her word in court is what allowed that to occur. Women get default custody in any dispute. Men have to fight for custody in any dispute. This can easily be seen by the fact that if a dispute takes place the child/children remain in “her” custody until the “battle” is over. Also your use of “hir” as a genderless automaton is meaningless and indicitive of feminist-speak.

Just because you really really really want it to be true doesn’t mean that it actually is true. If you want me to believe that a father only gets primary custody when the mother grants it, you had damn well better be able to back that up with a reputable source. Otherwise, you’re just a lying liar who lies. And hates women.

And I am experimenting with ‘hir’ as a more elegant way of saying ‘his or her’. I find ‘his or her’ to be an inelegant word. Usually I try and alternate ‘his’ and ‘her’ in situations where gender is unimportant, like in technical writing. But in situations like this, talking about custody and parenting, gender is sometimes important, and so ‘his or her’ becomes necessary to avoid unnecessarily gendering the language, or making an implication I don’t mean to make. But ‘his or her’ is fairly inelegant, so I’m experimenting with ‘hir’.

But you obviously don’t give two rusted farthings about elegance in your writing.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@Ami: Wow… great minds. 😛

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Damn, I didn’t get a mention again. 🙁

Slavey, what if the divorced parents live in different states? Wouldn’t that effect custody?

Victoria von Syrus
Victoria von Syrus
10 years ago

Take all money out of the equation. Equal custody. Period.

Soo… what happens when the kid needs $10,000 worth of braces? That might be a day’s work for one parent, but an entire quarter’s paycheck for the other.

Raising kids isn’t free.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Ami & Kirby, I REALLY hope Slavey actually tells us what he thinks about gender. *grabs popcorn*

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

@Molly Ren he likes me more xD

Molly Ren
10 years ago

@Ami: Dun keep all the trolls to yourself! I wanna play with them too! :'(

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

it’s not my fault that they get so obsessed w/ me sometimes xD (actually it maybe is.. the whole Rodeo Cat thing xD )

Magpie
Magpie
10 years ago

This is what happens when joint custody is made mandatory: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2011/s3188323.htm

Magpie
Magpie
10 years ago

hey wow! I made a linky!

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

@Captain Bathrobe…Take all money out of the equation. Equal custody. Period. If you can’t do that, than you believe only women are entitled to having children as part of“their” family.

How do you figure? Really, I’m not sure how your logic works here. Even with equal custody, there is still usually not equal ability to care or provide for the kids. Why the one-size-fits-all approach?

Pam
Pam
10 years ago

ROTFLMAO!!!! So, pointing out how Family Court determinations of custody and financial support arrangements mirrors your “fact of life” gender roles is pushing my “beloved” LGBTQ construct. That;s really rich!

No one should ever get any “leave” or “mandatory time” or anything from the State for childcare/rearing of any kind.

Yep, caring for children sure seems to be top priority in the activism for fathers’ rights. I mean, that’s the idea, isn’t it, the rights for fathers to be able to provide hands-on care for their children?

Pam
Pam
10 years ago

Ooooops, should have been “That’s”

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Ami, as long as you’re modifying cards, a nit-pick: there is no T in duchess.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

@Pam I know! He really is a liar.

Also, I will never be able to use a public hand dryer again without wanting bacon. *shakes fist at sky*

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Slavey, before you flounce again, a quick word of advice: the Devil is the Father of Lies. Whenever you type lies into a computer, the Devil guides your hands.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

This Zeta Male person seems very reasonable btw :] The Zeta cards are back up btw.. apparently he rly likes them and wants to link to them 🙂

Who knows? My cards may unite the world one day! 😀

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

@Johnny Pez thanks! I’ll fix it!

Sandy
Sandy
10 years ago

@NWOslave

“Gender roles aren’t viewed thru a narrow lens, they’re a fact of life. You’re simply trying to legitimize you beloved LGBTQ constuct. No one should ever get any “leave” or “mandatory time” or anything from the State for childcare/rearing of any kind.”

This in incorrect. Any person or couple can successfully bring up a child. Sole parents (like me) gay couples (hello Elton John), etc. The most important resource is children. Without the next generation there is no human race. Because they are the most important resource then every kind of aid should be provided to parents and caregivers to assist them in bringing up that child to the best of their ability.

“Take all money out of the equation. Equal custody. Period. If you can’t do that, than you believe only women are entitled to having children as part of “their” family.”

This is a nice thought, but in practicality it rarely works. In family law hearings that deal with children the law is clear that the consideration of the child is paramount. The child is not like a boat that can happily move from one house to another every week. This is confusing and upsetting for the child. A child should be able to have one home to call their own. Perhaps your equal “custody” argument could work if the child were to take possession of the house and the mother and father moved in and out of it every week to have their equal “custody” (what a hideous word to place upon a human being).

Whadyathink NWOslave?

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Slavey, do you have kids?

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Or pets?

Pam
Pam
10 years ago

@Molly Ren

Ever wonder why Fathers’ Rights Activists don’t discuss their concerns about how to be able to spend more time with their children while their relationship with the mother is intact?

Mmmmmmmmmmmm………..bacon………..

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@all:

Not too many questions now, otherwise it will give slavey a chance to ignore ami and me. Then we’ll never know what gender roles we are all supposed to fill! XD

Molly Ren
10 years ago

@Kirby How do you feel about bacon?

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I suspect NWO is posting in between naps xD Cuz it explains his whole “cya suckers!” thing w/ him working a lot and being tired and having long fightts 🙁 and his posting suddenly 3 hours later, once, then not responding again xD I think he gets out of bed, gets a drink of water, checks MBZ, posts, then goes back to bed (prolly dreaming of throwing things at me xD ) xD

Oh, if you ever want to revamp this site David, you should have the title be MBZ 😀 The TMZ of the MRM!

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

*long flights

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

Also, people, remember that whenever you disprove one of Slavey’s points, it shows that you’re full of hate.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Which I am xD

NWO thinks I’m hateful. Crack Emcee thinks I’m CRUEL xD At this rate, some troll will call me genocidal xD

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@Molly Ren:

Would that I could expound upon the wonders of this fine delicacy. The succulant taste, the crispy sizzle, the comforting grease. A better poet than I would compare bacon to the songbirds flitting about in the forest, to the cars puttering through the city. Bacon is right, bacon is just, bacon is good. It is as astounding as it is wonderous that nearly every meal is complemented by this meaty strip.

It also goes quite well on pizza. 😀

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Goddammit, now I want bacon pizza. From Papa John’s.

*shakes fist at Kirby*

Johnny Pez
10 years ago

And I just figured out that CYA means “see you”. I was wondering why Slavey kept advising us to cover our asses, because it seemed like an odd sort of statement to flounce with.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@Molly Ren:

Oooh, so it looks like I actually have a package of bacon! Too bad I didn’t cook it earlier, cause then I would have home-made BACON BREAD!!!

>:D