You may not have realized that you wanted to hear dramatic readings of comments from NiceGuy’s MGTOW forum. But, trust me, you do. And so here you go, courtesy of the folks behind Troper (a series of dramatic readings of terrible shit from the TV Tropes message boards). There are two episodes of the NiceGuy series so far, with more (eventually) on the way.
Whoops, posted too soon. “Apparently all women became stupid as soon as she was no longer one. 😛 Which isn’t something I’ve found during my own experiments with gender.”
Shaenon: OMG! You are one of the creators of SKIN HORSE? I’ve just started reading (a graduate student, male!, in my texts and gender seminars recommended your comic to the class last year!). Wow, the internet is a small world. Sometimes.
@Hook Rutee and Fuck MRAs:
Umm… I… don’t see a big mess of sexism here… In the video he specifically states that enough women aren’t being educated in science and engineering topics, and furthermore asserts that “women’s studies” courses were teaching women that the scientific method is a tool of the patriarchy, and therefore wrong… He of course could be misinformed, but that doesn’t make him a “sexist git.”
I’ve also seen a recent video (this year I think) of him on a panel with the blogger running Skepchick, and he had nothing but praise for the feminist movement, and how its “conciousness raising” of language was an equally valid tool for atheism. I don’t doubt that he gets hung up on evo-devo (its his subject, afterall, and the science isn’t great), and therefore he could be seen as sexist in that reguard… but honestly I think you are mischaracterizing his views. (I don’t know what the forum comments were like, sadly)
@Hook
Honestly you’re doing a disservice to yourself with the use of the term “nice guy TM” any time you see any man anywhere being unhappy with anything in the gender roles when it comes to dating. The niceguysTM whiners are only a small subset of all men to ever show dislike for what they see as unfairness in the old dating roles.
Weren’t we supposed to be liberated from “gender”. I find it ironic how when some guys aren’t born to perfectly fit the gender-script, they are shamed and told to “man up” if they can’t perfectly fit 19th century courtship roles. A lot of the guys who complain are NiceGuysTM, and many more aren’t. A lot of them are just guys who don’t fit the binary perfectly well and face much mocking, ridicule and humiliating from women (and other men) when they can’t perform the dating scripts.
She never became a man per se. She only dressed as one and had hollywood-level professional make-up to get away with looking like one. She never underwent any hormone therapy or surgery.
If you read the whole book you’ll get a better sense. She did in fact date a lot of men initially. She explains how she initially was heterosexual and dated men for many years, then due to developing misandry (she mentions women’s studies feeding into it)… She became lesbian for many years… And only then did she go into the experiment. She had run the full gamut before it.
She in fact was SURPRISED that all her prejudices about both men and women were broken. She didn’t have the belief that women like stinky, bald, Neanderthalic men going in. In fact, she went into the experiment believing that most women love a kind, loving, intuitive “woman in a man’s body” kind of a guy… But it all shattered for her…
Its a fascinating book on gender. I highly recommend it to anyone. It has a lot of discussions on feminism, gender, queer theory etc… Norah has lived it all. Studied gender, women’s studies. Been straight for many years, been a dyke for many other years… She can honestly give a lot deeper thought than most of us can… And reading the out-of-context quotes on my blog is not a really fair look at her book.
Try amazon for “my year as a self-made man”.
@Kirby:
It’s not in that video. He’s spewed gender-essentialist bullshit, excused men from any responsibility they may have to inclusiveness in the skeptical and atheist movements because “[Men treating women as there to be hit on and fucked] is just biology”, and minimized the concerns women have in the skeptic and atheist movements. At best, he might just be horrifically misguided, but at worst he’s just trying to use women as a rhetorical cudgel so he can claim a moral high ground against religious doctrine and ideology. I don’t care which it is, I’m sick of him.
@AlekNovy
I’ve read many reviews that refute that book for a variety of reasons, but w/e. I guess all of the men who aren’t “Alpha” but aren’t bitter toward women nor believe such sexist tropes are lying. And from her small sample against years of research, all sexist stereotypes are true.
Also, take note that this site mocks guys who themselves are stuck in the 19th century and are pissed that the society isn’t , not guys that have trouble dating. It is the entitlement and misogyny that is attacked, not a need for companionship or love. Particularly targets who are more interested in winning some “game” as opposed to actually connecting with anyone.
I do appreciate that this site genuinely only targets and tries to target misogynists who blame every female on the planet for their being undateaable men.
I also understand that you’re not trying to pick on men who simply had bad luck in life and due to social restrictions and gender issues can’t date effectively.
I’ve just noticed that in this sphere the term “nice guy” is thrown with glee and quite indiscriminately. I see many cases where its almost on autopilot-somebody reads just one sentence by a guy and goes “oh here we go, another nice guy TM” All I’m saying is that there is some collateral damage.
I am dating a nice guy. He is actually a nice guy-no ulterior motives for being nice to me, a female.
A “Nice Guy” is a guy who is nice only until he can score.
That’s why we use the term NiceGuyTM lol. It refers to “nice guys”.
If you feel that there is a better term to encapsulate the entitlement, sexist thought, othering, etc. of men who claim to just be ‘nice guys’ who are hard-done by those damn women who all love bad boys because why else wouldn’t someone be interested in me, feel free to share it. Because without one, their own moniker will suffice, and it seems to be generally understood here and elsewhere (Such as Heartless Bitches International) not to refer to men who are nice, but to that particular noxious combination of entitlement, arrogance, etc.
Oh I don’t mind the term at all. NiceGuyTM is quite appropriate as a term for entitled pricks who in their delusion call themselves “nice” when they’re anything but.
My issue is that it’s not always used against guys who are entitled, arrogant whiners that whine about bad boys. I’ve sen it slapped so many times on guys who never did say “oh but I’m so nice, yet women dump me for jeeeerks”.
Wouldnt you agree that there exist guys who due to bad luck and gender restrictions are dateless? There are plenty of amazing women like this as well, who due to certain social role restrictions are also dateless, despite being great women.
And if you’re a good man or woman who is dateless due to stupid social restrictions, wouldn’t it be understandable that you sometimes rant against society and gender roles and restrictions?
What I’ve noticed sometimes in this sphere is that the moment someone reads a complaint from a dateless guy, they immediatelly stereotype this guy as another dishonest entitled “nice guyTM” – without reading further or by just skimming around.
It’s just like if someone learns a girl is dateless, he immediately goes “oh, she’s probably a stuck up entitled bitch” – which as we know is not always true. It’s possible for a woman to have no entitlement, not be arrogant and still be dateless. It would be unfair to categorize her like that the moment she complains that she is dateless.
I know plenty of great women who are 27year old involuntary virgins, some of them have never been on a date or been kissed. And no, they’re not entitled, arrogant or fit the B word. Most are attractive by society standards. The one thing these women have in common is that they don’t play the gendered dating scripts well, and that is their ONLY “sin”.
Yet, these women are not allowed to protest or complain against the gendered dating scripts, because the moment they do-they get labeled “stuck up entitled arrogant bitches”.
I know what I call him: 13. Yes there are plenty of guys out there who are single and nice and not jerks who never get dates for whatever reason. Generally because they are shy to the point of having to have the woman standing on their chest yelling “I WANT YOU” before they will get the hint. So they are not dateless because no one wants them-they are dateless because they are unable to be just slightly more aggressive then the average whatever is not aggressive.
What to call these guys I have no idea.
@AlekNovy, Norah Vincent, who wrote the book “Self Made Man” has a long history of anti-trans sentiments on her record. There is also a reason the phrase “female chauvanist pig” exists (hint, it applies to everyone like Vincent who received an award from the odious “Feminist for Life”). Not to mention the huge amounts of selection bias that came out in interviews (like these bits from a piece by 20-20:
“Instead, Vincent said, the men talked about rage, often their rage toward women, and what they would do physically and violently toward women.
“A lot of this was blowing off steam. …They would talk about fantasizing about chopping up their wives or something. It’s not that they would ever do that, but it was a way to get out the blackest thoughts,” she said.
“”I was out in the woods with a bunch of guys who had rage issues about women and I was in drag … and I thought, oh, God, you know, what am I doing,” she added.”
The Salon review notes issues with classism as well, with Vincent going into a lower income rural area as an upperclass urban person. http://www.salon.com/books/review/2006/01/20/vincent/index2.html Vincent is certainly not trying to pass as a guy in her own culture, she is trying to pass as a guy in a different culture which she knows little about, but, like most rich white conservatives, is fond of idealizing.
“I was dressed as down and dirty as Ned got in a plaid shirt, jeans and a baseball cap pulled low over the most proletarian glasses I could find. But despite my best efforts, I was still far too scrubbed and tweedy amid these genuine articles to pass for one of them. Even at my burliest, next to them I felt like a petunia strapped to a Popsicle stick.
I was surrounded by men who had cement dust in their hair and sawdust under their fingernails. They had nicotine-sallowed faces that looked like ritual masks, and their hands were as tough and scarred as falcon gloves. These were men who, as one of them told me later, had been shoveling shit their whole lives.
Looking at them I thought: it’s at times like these when the term “real man” really hits home with you, and you understand in some elemental way that the male animal is definitely not a social construct.” http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/story?id=1531192&page=3
But that actually makes poor people sound, you know, like model humans, so then she goes on to refer to poor men as “brutish”. Also, within pages of that, she uses the terms “tribe” and “primal”. Oh, hideous poor folks, there is no point in trying to extend your brutish, primal, tribe lives! (she basically says that in pretty similar terms) I don’t really see anyone being convinced of anything, but rather a rich white conservative trying desperately to make up any bullshit necessary to prop up their stereotypes of “deserving” poor people. Yep, that’s her being nice about rural poor people, doesn’t that just give you a warm and snuggly feeling.
Me, up to about age 25 😉
AlekNovy, the people who sometimes rant against society and gender roles and restrictions? A lot of them are called “feminists”.
Understandable? Maybe. But it’s also understandable that a good man or woman who is dateless due to stupid social restrictions and then sometimes rants against society and gender roles and restrictions is often (1) socially shunned for being a person who rants, and (2) making themselves even less desirable as a date.
A few years ago, I was living in a small town where I had pretty much exhausted my dating options, and at the end of my stay there, I had a lot of frustration that I wanted to release. What was wrong with these men? I was too successful and too smart for them! They were too superficial and only wanted to date 16-year-old models! I saw these guys at the bars, hanging all over known bitches! Why did all men want to date bitches, when I was available — I, a person who was so nice and pleasant to be around and wouldn’t cheat, and would pay for stuff … etc.
So, a couple things from that experience. I’m a pretty kind person. But I was being an unpleasant, judgmental mope at the time, and if that attitude kept people away in droves, well, who can blame them? When I moved away and got a little more perspective, stopped being irritated at the injustices I had previously perceived, then I found a guy who wanted to date me because the kind person I am, and always have been, wasn’t clouded by all this anger toward my fellows.
Feeling bad, complaining, noticing injustices — all very human. But also all very counterproductive.* And noticing that someone who complains that all women are this way or that way is someone who I don’t want to date or be around — that’s human too.
*With the caveat that sometimes you gotta vent before you have a clean foundation to build on. My point is only that it’s totally understandable that no one will want to date you until after you’re done venting.
Mediumdave-or as I said 13 who is the guy I am dating who never even had a date until I stood on his chest yelling “I WANT A DATE.”
Okay maybe exaggerating a tad there but I had to be pretty aggressive.
Heh, that really fits one friend of mine who was virtually dateless until age 35. He constantly desired women who were unattainable for him or unavailable (due to little things like being married to other men, or living 1500 miles away). And meanwhile he wouldn’t see the women right in front of him who would’ve dated him in a heartbeat. Once, in a hotel bar while I was sitting right next to him, he completely ignored a cute young woman who was trying to get his attention… I couldn’t quite believe it.
Now that he does have a girlfriend (a very nice woman who’s a schoolteacher and a classical music enthusiast) he’s happier but still insecure; he acts as though I’m going to hit on his girlfriend when I’m around (please!!). It’s just immaturity, really, and once you pass age 30 there ain’t much excuse.
Hey, I am pretty insecure too-just because you turn 30 does not mean you suddenly have all of the confidence you never had before.
And it is a compliment on how awesome he thinks she is. Or that is me putting a positive spin on it.
Oh, you’re probably right. It just irritates me that people don’t heed my wise advice and instantly change their ways.
*persists in being an insecure 32 year old despite your obviously superior advice.*
AlexNovy: Care to share some examples of these reasonable men who are complaining about legitimate problems in social roles, whom the posters here have knee-jerkingly categorised as “Nice guys” when they tried to air their justifiable complaints?
Look, let us go to the often hilarious yahoo answers, find the dating section, and find an example “nice guy tm” vs someone who is just insecure.
User Jess’ question heading is this: “What’s her problem. i’m the one guy that DOESN’T cheat on her and she breaks up with me?” Jess is being a “nice guy tm”. He expects his girlfriend to be eternally grateful that he is not cheating and acts as if he is dating below himself out of compasion. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ah6uPo_VgcUVmnWphh975UMJ53NG;_ylv=3?qid=20110701101003AA3EVMb
User Adam says that his girlfriend tells him that he is the best sex partner she has ever had. He wishes to know if this is true, because his last girlfriend that told him that cheated on him with his roomates. Adam is not being a “nice guy”, he is just being insecure about his sexual performance. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AjWND_KwVgjN0D6pQ.NYJVgJ53NG;_ylv=3?qid=20110701102540AAXXUQ0
So, nobody ever loves anybody? Women are horrible monsters, men are noble losers who will never be loved, and love is a foolish dream that men can never achieve (because they’re too noble) and women will never know (because they’re evil and horrible).
Everybody hates everybody, but men are good and women are bad. And that’s how it is!
Example: Do you love your mom? Yes? You MORON, she’s an evil WOMAN!
Ummmm. Your vision of the human condition really doesn’t inspire a lot of support. Sheeee-it. That is all.
A lot of these problems would be solved if we left 18th century courtship roles and women started asking guys out that they like.
There’s a TON of guys whom I’ve met or known who believe they are “hated by women”. When in truth there’s a TON of women who like him.
I know tons of shy guys who literally have dozens of “female fans”, but they never find out. Like I know this 19 year old guy who looks like a fitness model. Girls literally start drooling when he walks by them. Very often some girls will stop, turn around, and find an excuse to hover around him… go into the same store he goes and he never notices. The girl will literally stalk him from every aisle and appear right next to him, and he never notices.
Also, because he’s shy and socially akward, when he does approach girls, being that he’s akward he comes across as being a jerk. Get this.
=> HE’S UNEXPRESSIVE BECAUSE HE’S SHY
=> THE GIRL ASSUMES HE’S BEING JUDGEMENTAL AND THINKS HE’S TOO GOOD FOR HIM, SO SHE TREATS HIM BADLY IN RETURN (cold and defensive)
=> He walks away from the interaction thinking that women hate him and treat him like shit for no good reason.
I’m telling you, half the women who meet this kid develop crushes on him, and he literally thinks all women on the planet hate him – because he doesn’t notice the interest from the girls in his close circles… While at the same time he gets “poor reactions” when he cold-approaches.
If we didn’t have these stupid 18th century roles this guy would have been asked out a long time ago by a girl (instead of them constantly trying to give him “strong hints). And he would have left the vicious loop he’s stuck in now.
It doesn’t matter how much logic I use to dissuade this kid. He just won’t believe me. When I point out the hints by women, he says they can’t be. etc… etc…
Yet you whine about feminists, who are trying to end this as part of the goal of ending gender roles entirely.
God, fuck off, you stupid MRA.