“Kloo2yoo,” the moderator of Reddit’s Men’s Rights Subreddit, is worried that racists in his subreddit will give Men’s Rights a bad name. So he’s put out a call to some of the more artistic readers of the subreddit to come up with a nice new logo for it, to show how broad-minded and all-inclusive Reddit’s Men’s Rightsers really are. Well, not literally all-inclusive. As Kloo put it in his call for artiistic help:
New logo needed, to emphasize racial and lgbt inclusiveness, but not feminism.
Oh, but even that turned out to be a bit too inclusive for some of the commenters there. Specifically, they objected to the “L” portion of LBGT. And some of the Ts. As white_cloud put it:
I don’t think you need to appeal to the L in LGBT. It is well-known that lesbians are the most radical of all feminists. They will never feel welcome here and we should not go out of our way to make them feel welcome. Male to female trans pretty much the same thing. They’ve already renounced their male gender, they don’t care about male rights
Scott2508 concurred:
ok i am in favour of inclusivness and im not sure if i am going to word this right so stick with me , the one thing i am curious about is how we bring ourself in line with the lesbian [angle] of it all simply due to the hostility that can arise from that community towards men
Kloo replied:
point taken. we can embrace lesbian mras, without embracing lesbian supremacists.
Apparently these are the only types of lesbians in the world.
In any case, despite these design constraints, I have come up with what I think is a very compelling logo that I think will convey just what Kloo would like to convey. What do you think, guys?
Holy shit Victoria von Syrus, you need citations for common knowlege.
If it’s common knowledge, then you should be able to easily come up with a Wikipedia article to prove your stance.
Otherwise, you’re full of shit.
OK, Luke#: HOw many of these feminist authors do you know (without Googling) (I admit I don’t read many ‘feminists’ in mainstream media, because, well, I read books)
If you want to play “who has the bigger reading list,” we can.
bell hooks
Patricia Williams
Paula Giddings
Trinh T. Minh-ha
Joanna Russ
Shulasmith Firestone
Robin Morgan
Susan Faludi
Judy Grahn
Batya Weinbaum
Angela Davis
Gloria Andzaldua
Cherrie Moraga
Tania Modleski
Uma Narayan
Sandra Harding
Mary Louise Pratt
Adrienne Rich
Deborah Tannen
VIrginia Woolf
Florynce Kennedy
Toni Cade Bambara
Chandra Tolpade Mohanty
julia penelope
Carolyn Heilbrun
They don’t agree with each other.
To attribute ONE columnist’s opinions to all feminists is as stupid as attributing Dan Savage’s or Bill O’Reilly’s opinions to all men.
NWO: That was precisely the context, and you are (as usual) wrong.
When someone says the OT applies he is quoting Jesus who said the Old Testament applied to His followers.
Matt 5: 17-19 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
Not one jot, nor one tittle shall pass away from the law. The OT is binding. Anyone who says differently isn’t listening to Jesus.
Moreover, a lot of the things you are all upset about (e.g. homsexuality) aren’t condemned in the New Testament, but in the old. So of you want to get all upset about them, you are incorporating OT teachings.
MertvayaRuka : you are probably right about MRAL’s pattern. I tend to be…..naively optimistic sometime (but am MUCH better than when I was younger).
Hippodameia: Even if David does delete it, when I’d bet a nickle he won’t, I see others have quoted it in full, so it’s there for the record.
One of them is not lying and exaggerating about the whole oppression thing, Luke. Not that that has anything to do with self-esteem.
But who cares? You’ve managed to find a way to feel superior to both of them. Talk about crutches for one’s self-esteem.
I can’t help it if your a Commie hellkell.
I can’t help if you like imprisoning men on a whim hellkell.
I can’t help it if you like all the perks Big Daddy gives women hellkell.
I can’t help it if you like men being treated like shit hellkell.
Pencunium – I have to disagree with you. The NT does condemn homosexuality. Not only being “worthy” of death like the OT, granted, but to be damned eternally as well. Romans 1:26-32, 1Timothy 1:10, 1Corinthians 6:9-10, and more.
However, as much as they try to enforce “abstinence only” sex education and such, conservative Christians don’t seem to go after people who have pre-marital sex as much as they do gays and lesbians. Both testaments are full of condemnation for fornication, and the OT proscribes the same punishment for non-virgin women as it does for gay men. Of course straight men who have pre-marital sex can’t produce tokens of their virginity upon marriage, so they get off with just the eternal damnation.
BTW I fully acknowledge that every person has problematic and non problematic aspects :] Many feminists who have problems w/ trans ppl, can be held up as great defenders of other issues, or have helped a lot in the community or etc… I’m sure there are MRAs like this too :]
My policy is that it’s an individual decision on each of us to determine what’s the breaking point for us, and what we can’t tolerate (and sometimes as groups of ppl, organizations often need to decide these things, or websites, or blogs…) despite all the goodness (without a change of heart, retraction, or some sort of acceptance of what they’ve done) that others may hold up or that even we may acknowledge :] And ppl can TTLLY also judge us on that. I mean if you think that Shakesville is a hate site, but I am ok w/ it even when I disagree w/ Liss, it’s not a breaking point w/ me (btw this isn’t my endorsement of Liss, xD this is an example) you’re free to think I’m a terrible person and I prolly can’t convince you otherwise.. just like I suppose if you think as long as rad fems call themselves feminists, nebody who associates themselves w/ feminism is a hate group member, that’s fine too :]
But this isn’t rly about that xD I just mean that like this comes up a lot, esp in trans comms, where feminism or the queer movement comes up… and everybody has their own breaking points and I respect that :] I mean there are sites, I just won’t support or consider them allies b/c of stuff they’ve written and supported and never retracted… -_-;; And sometimes it’s tricky.
Like… I’m somebody who’s not okay w/ Amanda Marcotte and Pandagon as a result b/c of some of the problematic thigns she’s done and said in the past related to race. -_- I don’t visit Pandagon (I was heavily involved in some of the online discussion about it when it happened and I think I wrote posts about it too, or it might have been during when I was too weak from my ED to think : I dun remember) and I dun support her : Ppl here are free to see that now and judge me for it.. I might be overreacting (I hope they dun think so) or they might understand how I feel as a WoC even if they dun see it themselves… and I might feel that they’re bad allies for STILL going to that site… or I might understand that it doesn’t affect them as much, or I might have other opinions… it’s not all black and white sometimes xD I dun think ANY of the ppl here necessarily represent that point of view that was problematic for me… or that they believe in it at all! It might be that they’ve never HEARD of what happened.. andw hen explained, go “oh that’s f-ed up” but it might not change their minds.. or maybe they will find out and go “oh you’re over reacting” and maybe we’ll re-evaluate how we see each other.. or maybe we won’t… or they might have known, and it wasn’t a breaking point for them…. SOME THINGS that aren’t a breaking point for others means I can’t trust them to be good allies… other things.. maybe not.. esp if there’s understanding… I mean we all come from different places, and different spaces, and different experiences, and privileges and oppression : Things that are triggering or a breaking point to some aren’t for others… how we deal w/ that, both in ourselves, and in OTHERS, is up to us… but I think it’s important to realize that it’s not always just a black and white “you’re either with us or against us” thing. :]
Sry that was long :] But it is something I rly think about, cuz the issue of “breaking points” comes up a lot in intersectional communities… and “who’s side on you own?” and it can get rly tricky and problematic : if somebody has somebody you hate on their blogroll, what does that say about them? Can you assume tacit consent based on silence (or percieved silence)? Does ignorance of a problematic person or problematic things a person has said (like if ppl dunno what M Andrea has said about trans ppl) does that mean something about them? Is that a “blind spot”? Or is that that the issue isn’t important to them? Or did they simply not know?
I think talking to ppl who are important to you and who you DO want to make sure where they stand is rly important in this also :] and also understanding that not everybody has to agree w/ you… as I said, we all have our OWN breaking points as well, about other ppl’s breaking points xD
“One of them is not lying and exaggerating about the whole oppression thing, Luke.”
Yes they are.
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
When the only framework you have is feminist theory, everything looks like patriarchical oppression.
When the only framework you have is MRA think, everything looks like a feminazi conspiracy.
When you can look beyond this, then yes, your viewpoint is superior.
@Sally Strange, sry xD I was unclear. My point is that NWO IS a YEC, but MRAL isn’t, and YOU (and we) do not abscribe this to MRAL or ask him to defend NWO or defend himself… but a lot of the trolls here are doing just that w/ us :]
I just know I’m superior to everybody xD Being an angel and all :3 So it’s easier that way 😀 I just side w/ feminism cuz I’m a jerkface and I hate ppl xD
(also I’m CRUEL) XDDDD
I rly SHOULD make like an ankh of XD or some sort of pendant… I bet I could make millions! XDDD
or tens neways… maybe ones…
Pecunium, While you may find some guys ass cobra stuffed up another guys man pussy something of a desirable act. I find it repulsive.
I don’t really care if you think I have a “pattern of an abuser”. Screw you… I don’t care what you think of my request to delete the post. I just spoke rashly, and that’s it. If you keep it up, whatever.
For all the shit liberal femmes say about conservatives being judgmental, you people are far, far worse.
@ilithiana:
“you are probably right about MRAL’s pattern. I tend to be…..naively optimistic sometime (but am MUCH better than when I was younger).”
After running into the pattern often enough, you get to recognize it quickly when you see it. I wish I could say I see it less often these days, but I don’t. Too many angry little fuckers out there who think refusal, criticism and mockery are oppression and they blame everybody else for their own damage.
Worse than that Pecunium, The NT promotes women actually liking men and even being loyal. Ohhhhh the inhumaity.
@ithiliana
I have not read much those authors, I’ve read reviews of some of them so I have some idea about the content.
But I have some blogs from the blogroll on the sidebar, (like Amanda Marcotte) and while I admit they are not as batshit insane as some other feminist material I’ve read, it’s still slanted with a gynocentric perspective and things go off the rails sometimes in twisting every negative human behaviour or wrong in society as being the fault of men.
[THREATENING QUOTE FROM MRAL DELETED]
God, and I sometimes feel SORRY for you. Sometimes have almost wanted to help you meet girls.
It’s a good goddamn thing for the girls of the world that you can’t meet any.
@Holly it’s an interesting and concerning question… surely MRAL has these thoughts/feelings when he’s not on the computer too.. when he’s out in public what does he do when he gets these urges? o_O What if he’s on a date and she says something he takes as being misandrist? 😐
Nice list ithiliana. You can garnish the privileges of them all while claiming ignorance. Silence is consent.
Vocative comma. Learn it.
And what did I just say in my post above? XDD
MRAL, I dated a guy almost exactly like you when I was in college. He was insecure and obsessed about how he looked, and nursed every single wrong ever done to him. I dated him right after I broke off a 3 year relationship with a guy who could not express an emotion to save his life, and the pendulum swung over to this guy, who’s emotional volatility seemed like such a breath of fresh air at first.
At first.
See, I was waaaay out of his league. Not just lookswise, but I was also better educated and employed than he. That wouldn’t have mattered to me, but it mattered to him. He decided in the privacy of his own head that I needed to be brought down to his level. And he would do almost exactly what you have done – moments where he just ‘lost control’, and it certainly wasn’t his fault, and didn’t I love him enough to forgive him? It wasn’t his fault, he had just been pushed too far!
He was never actually violent with me, but his contempt for me eventually shone through. He cut me down, controlled me, spied on me and tried to get my friends to spy on me for him. Sometimes, when I read what you’ve written, it sounds like something he could have said.
And so when people call the MRA the abuser’s lobby, that’s what they mean. You can certainly say you don’t fit the pattern of an abuser, but that doesn’t mean you’re right. I, for one, am glad you cannot find a girlfriend, because I cannot imagine the awful treatment you would give her. Maybe you’d never hit her, but I bet you’d find a thousand little ways to punish her for being female.
“Screw you… I don’t care what you think of my request to delete the post. I just spoke rashly, and that’s it. If you keep it up, whatever.
For all the shit liberal femmes say about conservatives being judgmental, you people are far, far worse.”
Nice try, little boy, but you’re not going to get any more sympathy here.
Ami – My hope for MRAL is that he’ll grow out of this organically, the way a lot of people have extremist opinions in their late teens/early twenties and later look back and laugh at the time that they were a Super Hardcore Militant anarchist or communist or religious fanatic or whatever.
But until that happens, I’m very honestly glad that he doesn’t have the social skills to get close to people–even though it makes the vicious cycle of his resentment worse. If he did get a girlfriend, I have a feeling he’d have absolutely no tolerance for the first instance of even slight friction.
A lot of abusers are able to delay that first explosion until someone is already emotionally committed and the abuser is able to place it in the context of “I’m a nice guy and you just pushed me too hard,” and have their victim believe it and learn not to “push” (i.e., have an independent existence) as much. Fortunately, MRAL lacks even that small shred of self-control.
What a load of bullshit. You didn’t “speak rashly,” you had a fantasy of violent revenge, you made the choice to write it all out, and then you made the choice to post it. You had choices all the way. You chose to demonstrate that you have the mindset of a violent abuser. Now you want us to pretend it never happened, that it didn’t mean anything? Again, the modus operandi of a violent abuser: refusing to take responsibility for your actions.
You don’t want to get called out then don’t post violent fantasies. If you continue to maintain that you just “lost control” and you literally cannot stop yourself from giving voice to such dark and frightening thoughts, then get used to people characterizing you as an unstable, violent person who should not be in a relationship of any kind until he gets help.