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antifeminism misogyny MRA oppressed men threats violence against men/women

Amanda Marcotte on the Thomas Ball suicide, and MRA haters

Amanda Marcotte, feminist blogger and Friend of Man Boobz, has been taking a lot of shit from MRAs – and I mean a LOT of shit – for a comment she made here on the Thomas Ball suicide.

As you may already know, Ball burned himself to death outside a New Hampshire courthouse. In a lengthy manifesto he wrote shortly before killing himself, he portrayed his suicide as a protest against a corrupt family court system, and went on to argue that MRAs should quite literally assemble some Molotov cocktails and “start burning down police stations and courthouses.” (You can read the whole manifesto here.)  Despite his calls for violence many MRAs have hailed him as an MRA martyr.

Marcotte, in her comment here, suggested that there might have been other, more personal reasons for his suicide – namely, the desire to hurt his ex-wife:

I’ll point out that setting yourself on fire is an extremely effective tool if your goal is to make your ex-wife’s life a living hell, and if your anger at losing control over her overwhelms all other desires. Which is common enough with abusers, who will ruin their own lives and their own shit and turn their children against them in an effort to hurt the woman they’ve fixated on.

One MR blogger declared this comment “pure feminist evil”; a conservative blogger compared Marcotte to the Beast of Babylon.  Still other MRAs resorted to assorted variations on the c-word.

Marcotte has now responded to this, er, “criticism” with an excellent post on Pandagon. As she points out, correctly,

suicide and threats of suicide are common tactics used by abusers to hurt their victims. Abusers dramatically self-destruct all the time in their desperation to control and hurt the objects of their obsession.  There was just recently a big story about this, in fact: Jason Valdez of Utah, who had a long criminal record that included domestic violence, held a woman hostage in a hotel room for 16 hours and kept updates about the situation on Facebook. He eventually committed suicide.

The notion that suicide can be a hostile, aggressive act designed to hurt other people is hardly a controversial one, whether the person committing suicide is male or female. Threats of suicide are often used to manipulate other people; suicide itself can be an act of revenge.

Marcotte goes on:

Apparently, I’m supposed to pretend that suicide isn’t a disruptive, selfish act in many cases (especially when the suicide victim commits it in a public and destructive way), and that people who do it, while yes victims of their own mental health problems, are also thinking that they’re going to make everyone pay for not indulging them.  In fact, not only is this true in Ball’s case, but he spelled it out in his suicide note.  The “make the bastards suffer” theme of his note is the reason that wingnuts are supporting him.

But you don’t have to take her word for it. Read Ball’s entire manifesto, to the end, and ask yourself if this man is an appropriate “martyr” for any political movement.

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unreal man
9 years ago

@ Pecunium
You must really love this kind of quarreling. I explained carefully what I meant. If you choose to misunderstand it, then no amount of arguing on my part will ever make you so I won’t bother trying anymore. Anyone who does care enough to want to know, can go back and read my comments. Given the tone in your commenting, I suppose I’ll see yet another attempt to provoke and patronize me into explaining myself but it won’t work. This conversation is over as far as I’m concerned.

It’s just worth pointing out to others, that if you can get into such a squabble over what someone might or might not have meant in their writing, then you are clearly not qualified to judge Ball’s or anyone else’s mind based on their writing.

Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

It’s funny how quickly our MRAs play the “hatred” card:

“How dare you ask me to back up my arguments! There’s nothing but hatred here!”

Pro-tip: skepticism is not hatred.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Buck Swamp:
Hey, muffin! Please don’t go before we continue our conversation! In case you come back, here’s my part:

I noticed you didn’t say anything about my contention that the National Debt, being some big-ol’ bank related business, has nothing to do with how many humans in the US are actually working right now.

You also didn’t answer my question: once they’re Sticking It To The System by becoming unemployed, how will dudes eat? That’s OK, I’ll remind you. I’M HELPING.

The Department of Labor unemployment statistics do not include people who are working part-time but want to work full-time, or people who have quit looking for work altogether. “Real” unemployment is much higher than the official numbers. 20% may be an exaggeration, but the real number for all men is certainly higher than 15%. Historically this is very high, and it won’t be dropping in the forseeable future.

Did you read where my link from the Bureau of Labor Statistics said that there are no reliable data for “underemployment”? Where are you getting 20%—-ahem, 15%, it’s like I’m bargaining you down or something—–from?

As for the male-female college ratio, I think that the important thing to look at is the trend. And the trend for males is dropping fast.

And if current trends continue, expect to get one new season in the “Game of Thrones” series every year, for the rest of our lives. Oh. Wait.

And a 57-43 ratio should be cause for real alarm, anyway…Except for the hard sciences, colleges today are inhospitable places for men.

Well, 53/47 is hardly “droves.” And did you read the link I posted about how this ratio involves a lot of boys from poor backgrounds who are dropping out of high school? Maybe not! There are oodles of reasons for this ratio, baby, and “colleges today are inhospitable places for men” is not the most evidence-rich one! Especially considering that many admissions offices actively seek them out.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Look around. Almost everything good and useful was invented by men. Historically, women have had babies and men have done everything else. All the great innovaters were and are men. Most of the great artists and writers were and are men. All the best athletes were and are men. Shall I go on?

A woman made this though, so I think we’re even:

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

OK Laura, the fun’s over. I get it. In this war every inch of ground will be fought over. Nothing will ever be stipulated. No quarter will ever be given….

I get it. It’s radical feminism or Hell, and nothing in between. It’s hatred and more hatred forever. I finally get it.

You gotta prove what you say, Mr. Prissypants. That’s not “hatred,” that’s “having a discussion.”

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Duncan’s leaving too? NOOOO

and i think i will step back from discourse, after reading that page and seeing that this seems to be a “your either a feminist or a mysoginst” style of page there seems to be no hope for discourse without insult ….. as such im afraid you will miss the chance to actually have two sides rationally debate issues that matter to them , just because i disagree with feminisim as it exists today ( and i come from a family where my granfather was excommunicated from the church for joining the communist party as he belived it was the most morally right politics ) so i have been raised to stand by my convictions and to listen and talk sometimes i have even been swayed by arguments , but tell you what…[a bloo bloo bloo, on and on and on…]
To those who I talked to and were friendly, listened and replied , thank you for the talk and the respect ….. mods maybe you need to review things because this is sad.

Something here is sad, all right. I think it’s the grammar.

unreal man
9 years ago

“You gotta prove what you say, Mr. Prissypants. ”

How about holding others to the same standard?
Ask all those experts who declare the suicide of someone they’ve never met to be “selfish” to prove it.

unreal man
9 years ago

Think I better leave too.
I made my point about suicide and people can take it or leave it.

Pecunium
9 years ago

unreal man: Those would be the citations to studies on suicidal motivations used in the earlier in the comment stream (here et sequalae).

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

What’s the over/under on how many of these flounces stick? o_O Or maybe the over/under on how many hours they stay flounced? xD

I say for (the v obv just here to troll and “bother” ppl but end up being the one who gets rly upset xD ) Buck Swamp (who I call Cobra Commander in my head b/c he’s so much like him xD w/ his crazy schemes and plans, laughing about plans and telling them to ppl before they’re complete, then stomping when things go bad XD tho if he draws his face in the moon that’d be pretty darn awesome xD ) the over/under is .. hmm… 3.5 hours!

It’s 3:30PM (EDT) right now… so that’d be 7PM…

so… place your bets! will he be back before 3.5 hours is over or after? XD

I also love how the response when they get too frustrated to keep going is always “I GET IT I GET IT PENIS SUCKS VAGINA IS BEAUTIFUL, WOMEN CAN DO NO WRONG, YOU GUYS ARE JUST SO HATEFUL” xD I’m sure they think this… has.. some.. effect.. xD

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

@unreal man that’s actually probably a good idea (I’m not mocking you) :] You did make your point and said what you said, and the rest would end up just as a flame war : (I’m not encouraging you to leave cuz I dun like you or nething, but I am always impressed by ppl who recognize when the point of their first showing up is over and realize they’re about to be dragged into the mud if they go further in online arguments)

Pecunium
9 years ago

ami: We all know vaginas suck (or at least clamp down).

mediumdave
mediumdave
9 years ago

I must say that I’m disappointed in old Toysoldier… he used to be so much better at the “concern troll” game. He could’ve played up the “Thomas Ball was obviously an abuse survivor himself” angle (something we actually have no information about, but it’s plausible), but instead he came here to make excuses for an abusive dad* and engage in Marcotte-bashing**.

*Not only that, but at his own blog he’s claiming that slapping a child hard enough to draw blood isn’t child abuse! What is it, a loving touch?

**OTOH I have more confirmation of my hypothesis about the phenomenon I call MDS (anti-feminists, upon seeing the words “Amanda Marcotte”, completely lose their sense of reason).

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

The original sources, since you said you read them. Not some list on an MRA site. Provide context for these remarks, and a link if possible.

That’s prolly where he read them >_>

Schala
Schala
9 years ago

“*Not only that, but at his own blog he’s claiming that slapping a child hard enough to draw blood isn’t child abuse! What is it, a loving touch?”

A simple slap could cause blood to be drawn from a lip, no?

I’ve been spanked harder (and more than once), just not on the lip. CPS didn’t remove me from my home.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
9 years ago

Look around. Almost everything good and useful was invented by men. Historically, women have had babies and men have done everything else. All the great innovaters were and are men. Most of the great artists and writers were and are men. All the best athletes were and are men. Shall I go on?

Oh great monkey gods. This crap again. I love when they try to make this argument with not even the slightest hint of awareness of the historical context of societal restraints placed on women. It’s difficult to be an innovator or inventor when, if you can afford the education you’re expected not to work, and if you’re a women who works then you’re too poor to afford the education. And even if you can afford it, you’re limited by which schools may or may no accept you.

The same social expectations apply to artists and writers. Jane Austin was published anonymously until after her death because she was a woman. Even today the Harry Potter books were written by J.K. Rowling instead of Joanne Rowling because of fears that young boys wouldn’t want to read books written by women.

You don’t have to look far today for extremist versions of this thinking, such as Afghanistan where teachers are killed for teaching girls. We’re fortunate it was never that bad here in the West, but to have a history of denying opportunities to women then crowing over how the men who got to enjoy those opportunities were so much better at it than women?
That’s just bullshit.

Schala
Schala
9 years ago

I’m saying that because you seem to be claiming that it was a routine, for no reason, thing, for the evulz.

Sometimes it’s someone losing their temper, not a willful act meant to hurt. Apparently intent doesn’t matter in those cases.

aMiRA
aMiRA
9 years ago

Man lightly slaps child in anger, accidentally drawing blood, feminists cry abuse. Woman uses child as baseball bat to hit another person. Where’s the outcry? If they took her child away, I’m pretty sure you feminists would be cheering her on if she set herself on fire.

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

“A simple slap could cause blood to be drawn from a lip, no?”

Possibly, although we know that he did more than slap her once, since he admitted in court to slapping his daughter three times across her face. His daughter said that he pushed her on the back and then hit her face “a lot,” until she bled.

Jesus christ. This is one thing that we don’t have to make wild guesses about, and still here you are, making wild, but wrong, guesses about things that are easily learned through Lord Google.

And when you’re talking about an adult hitting a 4-year-old in the face, I say no, intent does not matter. There’s no valid reason for an adult to do that.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Schala: No… no one is saying it was routine. We are saying it was an act of abuse. The, “intent” doesn’t matter in those cases. Abuse isn’t murder, there isn’t a requirement for mens rea.

The courts even agreed it wasn’t habitual. If they had found a patter of abuse he wouldn’t have been offered such a sweet deal (what was it, two counseling sessions and everything is better?).

I can tell you this, if he had been on active duty and this came to his commander’s attention… it would have been a lot harder to get his shit squared away. Unless his commander really liked him (and it hadn’t come to the attention of the civil authorities), his ass would have been in a sling.

Not as often as I’d like (and some branches [combat arms, I’m looking at you] aren’t as attentive to abuse issues as they should be) but most of the time… it’s a career changer to have an abuse rap happen. You can get away with whomping on your spouse a lot more than you can get away with beating your kid (and that is a piece of blowback from the Lautenberg Amendment, which I think was well intentioned but ill-implemented).

But he wouldn’t lift the least finger to carry his weight on this. Never the least admission that hitting your four-year old kid in the face and splitting a lip wasn’t something which might warrant a bit of intervention.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
9 years ago

aMiRA, instead of claiming that feminists see that woman as a hero, how about showing us examples of feminists seeing her as a hero? How about examples of feminists arguing that she should be allowed to keep her child? She used her child as a weapon, for crying out loud! She needs to be locked up!
But considering that the police are looking for her and she will likely be arrested, what kind of outcry are you looking for from us? I don’t see anyone arguing that she shouldn’t be.
If you expect to post random articles about women committing crimes and expect them to be making some sort of point, you are a bigger idiot than I previously thought.

Schala
Schala
9 years ago

Okay, three times is a bit much, but from experience, drawing blood from your lip is easy, especially if your lips naturally dry off like mine.

So we can’t measure the strength of the hits. I would personally think the damage is more psychological (which doesn’t mean it’s better – believe me, years of being beaten up never got me in the hospital, but they certainly demolished my self-worth).

I don’t know the circumstances surrounding the abuse, or how his relationship was back then. Though just reading his very long letter, I feel it was a very desperate act, from someone who pretty much lost all hope of things EVER getting better. I’ve been there.

I’d usually end up deleting this stuff said in anger, this stuff about wanting things to change for the best in the world…and just thinking…whatever, not like I’d have an impact in any sort of way.

Doesn’t push me towards suicide nowadays, but certainly prevents my seriously wanting to work, educate myself or generally improve my condition, because what is it all for?

I don’t believe we necessarily have purpose or destiny, and I think the world is seriously fucked up…and working and educating myself would just be playing right into it. Doing what the corrupt elements (big corporate, big government, big “I want to use you for monetary gain person”) want me to do.

The system is built so that it can change over time, slowly…but always enough to keep itself on top. A la The One in the Matrix, restarted 6 times before, the revolution came to do the exact same thing and repeat history. So why bother if nothing will really change or improve? My contribution means nada.

aMiRA
aMiRA
9 years ago

Your defensiveness is all the proof I need. If feminists did not support this woman, why would you get so defensive? You would simply link me to the many many sites condemning her and that would be that. It is also telling that you categorize her actions as “random” yet none of you ever refer to male abusers’ as “random”.

I also find it telling that your response was not to condemn her but to say that it is okay because your precious state will handle it. Convenient.

Schala
Schala
9 years ago

And that’s why I use blogs as entertainment. If I took it seriously, I’d be long dead.

My goal in life is to play video games, and eventually die. Not suicide, just sometimes you die when not immortal.

No other goal worth pursuing.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago
Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
9 years ago

our defensiveness is all the proof I need.

Again, you are an idiot. If “defensiveness” is asking you to back up claims you make, then sure, I’ll be “defensive”. (I can’t wait to see how you take this out of context, considering the rest of what you wrote…)

If feminists did not support this woman, why would you get so defensive?

You asked where the outcry was. I asked you what kind of outcry you were looking for. You’re saying that feminists support the criminal act this woman committed. Asking for proof of this isn’t “defensive”, it’s asking you to back up a moronic assertion.

You would simply link me to the many many sites condemning her and that would be that.

I could, if there were sites set up to condemn every criminal act that makes it into the news. However, you are the one that brought up the story while make claims and asking questions. It’s up to you to provide links showing feminists cheering her on.

It is also telling that you categorize her actions as “random” yet none of you ever refer to male abusers’ as “random”.

No, what’s telling is that you either lack reading comprehension or deliberately quote words out of context. Let’s see what I actually wrote, shall we?

If you expect to post random articles about women committing crimes and expect them to be making some sort of point, you are a bigger idiot than I previously thought.

See where I used the word “random”? It wasn’t in reference to her actions, it was in reference to your use of the article. You found a news article about a woman committing a crime against a child. You could have failed to make a salient point with any article about a woman committing a crime against a child.
If you want to make a point, what you need is to find an article where feminists exclaim that the woman committing the crime against a child should be allowed to keep that child. Only then would you have a point.

I also find it telling that your response was not to condemn her but to say that it is okay because your precious state will handle it. Convenient.

As opposed to what? Vigilante justice? Or are you saying that outcries from feminists are the only punishments people who commit crimes against child get?
I’m frankly so bewildered that your reaction to “the police should arrest the criminal and throw her into prison” is “I also find it telling that your response was not to condemn her but to say that it is okay because your precious state will handle it” that I don’t know if you’re a complete imbecile or just so committed to argue with feminists that you will take any stance, no matter how bizarre. Even the most committed libertarians and objectivists I’ve come across don’t have a problem with the state throwing people who commit assault into prison.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
9 years ago

Ami – well, there we are. Outcry from a feminist. I’m sure aMiRA will find some way to discount it though.

aMiRA
aMiRA
9 years ago

@Tubby Lovelamp

So your counter is to point to a site by a brain-dead valley girl who wandered off the set of Jersey Shore and is obviously mocking the seriousness of this situation? This is the same girl who makes those silly hate-filled cards and calls them activism. With friends like those…

As opposed to what? Vigilante justice? Or are you saying that outcries from feminists are the only punishments people who commit crimes against child get?
I’m frankly so bewildered that your reaction to “the police should arrest the criminal and throw her into prison” is “I also find it telling that your response was not to condemn her but to say that it is okay because your precious state will handle it” that I don’t know if you’re a complete imbecile or just so committed to argue with feminists that you will take any stance, no matter how bizarre. Even the most committed libertarians and objectivists I’ve come across don’t have a problem with the state throwing people who commit assault into prison.

Your reading comprehension abilities are farcical. I didn’t say that people who commit crimes should not go to jail, but that you feminists use “well the police will get her!” as a convenient way to dodge the issue I brought up: the double standard that feminists apply to male “abusers” and female abusers. As was brought up above, you care about a little split lip, but not about years of psychological abuse, frustration and desperation that led to a poor man taking his life.

Doctress Julia
9 years ago

What kind of shit slaps a four-year old?? Ever? That is FUCKED.

Yeah, abuse leaves lifetime damage… verbal/emotional abuse, physical abuse… I wonder how long before that little girl stops flinching when people make sudden movements near her? That poor little girl. Hypervigilance is what happens to kids like this. Nightmares, flashbacks, abusing others… breaking the chain of abuse is hard. Especially when you have permanent physical reminders of it (scars, skull fractures, headaches, etc.). For me, the choice to never have children is one way I have ended it. There is no chance I will ever hit or abuse my child- I’m not having any.

aMiRA
aMiRA
9 years ago

Typical. My comment is in moderation. Are you so afraid of the truth?

Doctress Julia
9 years ago

Oh, yeah- when someone writes a ‘manifesto’ and makes it public, the public gets to make judgment upon it. Simple, no?

Doctress Julia
9 years ago

I LOVE the truth! Fuck fear! TELL ME NOW!!!! It burns so good!

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Okay, three times is a bit much, but from experience, drawing blood from your lip is easy, especially if your lips naturally dry off like mine….

So we can’t measure the strength of the hits. I would personally think the damage is more psychological…
I don’t know the circumstances surrounding the abuse, or how his relationship was back then. Though just reading his very long letter, I feel it was a very desperate act, from someone who pretty much lost all hope of things EVER getting better…

I don’t believe we necessarily have purpose or destiny, and I think the world is seriously fucked up…and working and educating myself would just be playing right into it. Doing what the corrupt elements (big corporate, big government, big “I want to use you for monetary gain person”) want me to do….

The system is built so that it can change over time, slowly…but always enough to keep itself on top. A la The One in the Matrix, restarted 6 times before, the revolution came to do the exact same thing and repeat history. So why bother if nothing will really change or improve? My contribution means nada..

.
He wasn’t Sticking It To The Matrix, he was hitting a four-year-old several times about the face until she bled.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
9 years ago

Why am I arguing with a man who has no interest in real discussion?

Your reading comprehension abilities are farcical.

Nice try, but if you try to write insults instead of making actual points, don’t blame the reader. I really don’t know what you want to see from feminists here. I want to see her in prison. I want to see male abusers in prison. I want to see abusers period in prison. I know you’re looking for a double standard, but posting an article about a crime committed isn’t proving a double standard. Posting a link to feminists arguing that she should only get councelling while still keeping her child? That would be a double standard. But you can’t find that link, can you?

I didn’t say that people who commit crimes should not go to jail, but that you feminists use “well the police will get her!” as a convenient way to dodge the issue I brought up:

You didn’t bring up any issue. You just posted a link to a story about a crime.

the double standard that feminists apply to male “abusers” and female abusers. As was brought up above, you care about a little split lip, but not about years of psychological abuse, frustration and desperation that led to a poor man taking his life.

The two stories have nothing to do with each other. However, let me ask you this – would you care if there were years of psychological abuse, frustration and desperation leading to a women using a child as a weapon? If not, you might want to look at the double standard in you.

aMiRA
aMiRA
9 years ago

@Tabby Lavalamp (apparently spelling your name incorrectly gets me into moderation by your boyfriend)

Given your pathetic attempts at debate, I have a new nickname for you:

Inane
Argumentative
Motormouth

Atrociously
Mad
Idiot

Magical Laura
9 years ago

Thankyou Pecunium, that means a lot coming from you as your comments are so awesome!

Schala
Schala
9 years ago

@VoIP

Way to miss the point

I’m saying, I’m past getting any kind of reaction to stuff happening, besides intellectually thinking about it on a detached level, because we will always be too stupid to change society for the better, that it is not worth it, to even try bothering to change things.

I don’t know why he did what he did, but I know what desperation at the humanity of humans is.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
9 years ago

aMiRA, I can’t decide if I love you or hate you right now. 😀

Pecunium
9 years ago

Tabby: aMiRA is a bit infuriating until you learn to see him for what he really is.

aMiRA
aMiRA
9 years ago

I do not desire your love. But I will gladly take your hate.

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

I however will take your love! *HUGS* also your hate, if you’re mad 🙁 I hope I did not upset you too much : I thought you alrdy knew but I never know who saw it the first few times and who didn’t 😐

Magical Laura
9 years ago

“Sometimes it’s someone losing their temper, not a willful act meant to hurt. Apparently intent doesn’t matter in those cases.”

No, intent doesn’t matter when you’re repeatedly slapping a 4-year-old in the face. Just like if I lost my temper and hurt someone else, particularly a child, I would face repercussions. Your emotions don’t make it ok to hurt someone.

darksidecat
9 years ago

This is the correct thread for this. 😉

Here’s a bit on patents. Under the British common law rules that states applied until the federal law in 1790, women could not hold patents. After that, women were not barred by the federal law, but women in states without property rights were legally barred from owning the patent and often from having the patent in their own name. When married women’s property rights increased, the number of women’s patents exploded. http://invention.smithsonian.org/centerpieces/ilives/womeninventors.html

darksidecat
9 years ago

On abuse and intent, intent does matter, but “intent to injure” is usually only an element in a higher charge. Ball intended to hit the child, he did not hit her by mistake while randomly flailing his limbs. Of course, those are assault charges, parents can also be liable for reckless or negligent injury to a child under their care, but intent to hit and intent to injure are not quite the same thing. Though, honestly, anyone who does not understand that hitting someone in the face several times does them injury is probably comatose.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
9 years ago

Ami, I’m usually pretty good at spotting satire/parody, but damn it, after dealing with some of the MRAs who have posted here, it was too hard to see it with aMiRa. I’m not mad at all. 🙂

Fuck MRAs
Fuck MRAs
9 years ago

“I do not desire your love. But I will gladly take your hate.”

words to live by!

Toysoldier
9 years ago

@Bee:

Listen, I’ve already quoted Amanda’s words to you twice. You seem set on mischaracterizing them and misreading her. What part of “suggested” and “might” do you think don’t indicate opinion?

And I already quoted Marcotte’s words to you twice. In the comments I quoted she did not state “suggested” or “might”. In her post she only used “suggest” three times, and only once in reference to Ball regarding her “suggestion that Ball may have been abusive to his family”. She only used “might” to suggest that “there might be a more personal reason for this guy’s suicide” vis a vis abusers using suicide threats to hurt their victims. So not only did you misrepresent Ball’s statements, you misrepresented Marcotte’s. Perhaps if you quoted the comments you are referring it would clarify the problem.

“Family” can’t include Ball’s daughter or his children’s mother.

I did not state that. I stated that we do not know that Ball’s brother spoke on behalf of Ball’s ex-wife. We do not know the state of Ball’s relationship with his ex or his children, so for all we know they had nothing to do with him. Secondly, when a family member related to a person speaks for that person’s family, they typically mean their immediate family, which usually does not include exes.

Ball’s narrative […] can’t be read as placing blame on anyone.

I did not state that either. I stated that it cannot be read as placing blame on his ex-wife or daughter. He clearly places all the blame on the judicial and family court systems. If you read more into it, that is you reading more into it. You are more than welcome to do that, but Ball does not directly state that his ex-wife or daughter are to blame. I honestly do not know why anyone wants him to have done that.

Toysoldier
9 years ago

Not only that, but at his own blog he’s claiming that slapping a child hard enough to draw blood isn’t child abuse! What is it, a loving touch?

I stated that it is not exactly child abuse, and it is not. One incident resulting in a cut lip does not mean Ball routinely abused his daughter or that his intent was to abuse or even hurt her. And considering that I also stated that I find striking children a cowardly act, it is rather tactless of you to imply I support child abuse.

I understand the need to engage in insults and ad hominems. I presented a counter opinion, and by virtue of not being a feminist some people immediately discredit the validity of my arguments. I also realize it can be frustrating when someone actually presents a defensible argument for which you have no counter. However, poor argumentative skills is not a good reason to engage in such juvenile behavior.

Pecunium
9 years ago

toysoldier: Not routinely /= no abuse.

I don’t know what you think hitting someone several times is… I see that you think it’s not, “exactly” abuse, but I also see that you think it can be done without the intent to hurt. So you aren’t “exactly” defending child abuse, just defining this abusive behavior as, “not exactly” abusive, because it wasn’t “regular.

But I understand you’re being frustrated from dealing with arguments for which you have no counter.