Amanda Marcotte, feminist blogger and Friend of Man Boobz, has been taking a lot of shit from MRAs – and I mean a LOT of shit – for a comment she made here on the Thomas Ball suicide.
As you may already know, Ball burned himself to death outside a New Hampshire courthouse. In a lengthy manifesto he wrote shortly before killing himself, he portrayed his suicide as a protest against a corrupt family court system, and went on to argue that MRAs should quite literally assemble some Molotov cocktails and “start burning down police stations and courthouses.” (You can read the whole manifesto here.) Despite his calls for violence many MRAs have hailed him as an MRA martyr.
Marcotte, in her comment here, suggested that there might have been other, more personal reasons for his suicide – namely, the desire to hurt his ex-wife:
I’ll point out that setting yourself on fire is an extremely effective tool if your goal is to make your ex-wife’s life a living hell, and if your anger at losing control over her overwhelms all other desires. Which is common enough with abusers, who will ruin their own lives and their own shit and turn their children against them in an effort to hurt the woman they’ve fixated on.
One MR blogger declared this comment “pure feminist evil”; a conservative blogger compared Marcotte to the Beast of Babylon. Still other MRAs resorted to assorted variations on the c-word.
Marcotte has now responded to this, er, “criticism” with an excellent post on Pandagon. As she points out, correctly,
suicide and threats of suicide are common tactics used by abusers to hurt their victims. Abusers dramatically self-destruct all the time in their desperation to control and hurt the objects of their obsession. There was just recently a big story about this, in fact: Jason Valdez of Utah, who had a long criminal record that included domestic violence, held a woman hostage in a hotel room for 16 hours and kept updates about the situation on Facebook. He eventually committed suicide.
The notion that suicide can be a hostile, aggressive act designed to hurt other people is hardly a controversial one, whether the person committing suicide is male or female. Threats of suicide are often used to manipulate other people; suicide itself can be an act of revenge.
Marcotte goes on:
Apparently, I’m supposed to pretend that suicide isn’t a disruptive, selfish act in many cases (especially when the suicide victim commits it in a public and destructive way), and that people who do it, while yes victims of their own mental health problems, are also thinking that they’re going to make everyone pay for not indulging them. In fact, not only is this true in Ball’s case, but he spelled it out in his suicide note. The “make the bastards suffer” theme of his note is the reason that wingnuts are supporting him.
But you don’t have to take her word for it. Read Ball’s entire manifesto, to the end, and ask yourself if this man is an appropriate “martyr” for any political movement.
@darkside
“I disagree with you-suicide attempts are generally serious.”
I never said they weren’t.
@ Jules
My comment may have come right after yours but it was not a reply to your comment. I can’t know what you did or didn’t intend. That is my whole point – that we can’t know what was going on in someone else’s mind – especially in such extreme cases. So we shouldn’t judge them. Not even if we have had our own experiences (I have) with the subject – that was the point I was making.
In addition to this, there is always the possibility of doubt. Just because people say they attempted suicide does not mean they really had that intention (no that’s not directed at you Jules).
I say, we should remain open minded and non judgmental rather than making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.
@unreal man
Fair enough. But could you give me an example of a scenario (not necessarily true life) in which a suicide was not a selfish act? I genuinely can’t imagine one.
“Dearest, I feel certain that I am going mad again. I feel we can’t go through another of those terrible times. And I shan’t recover this time. I begin to hear voices, and I can’t concentrate. So I am doing what seems the best thing to do. You have given me the greatest possible happiness. You have been in every way all that anyone could be. I don’t think two people could have been happier ’til this terrible disease came. I can’t fight any longer. I know that I am spoiling your life, that without me you could work. And you will I know. You see I can’t even write this properly. I can’t read. What I want to say is I owe all the happiness of my life to you. You have been entirely patient with me and incredibly good. I want to say that – everybody knows it. If anybody could have saved me it would have been you. Everything has gone from me but the certainty of your goodness. I can’t go on spoiling your life any longer. I don’t think two people could have been happier than we have been. V.”
– Virginia Woolf
I guess I identify with this too much =/… but I don’t think it comes across as selfish
I wanted them to realize it and feel bad that they hadn’t done more to help me.
I also had to have everything completely secretive, because I feared being caught and loosing what control I had over my life more than I feared death.
I held both of these thoughts, complete with the “weak suicide” theory. God, I remember those days, and it really sucked. The only thing that stopped any further attempts was when one of my tormentors told me that they wanted me to commit suicide and other tormentors agreeing. If my existence pissed them off so much, then exist I will!
Which makes me hate the category of suicide threats that are used for manipulation and abuse. Unfortunately, my cousin is dating one of those guys. I hope that one day she finally leaves him for good. And I hope that one day she can leave him and that it doesn’t escalate.
It’s a beautiful letter and it certainly doesn’t come across as selfish. Nonetheless, I wonder how Leonard Woolf felt when he read it. Isn’t she kind of saying she’s doing it for him? I’d feel terrible in his place.
What I’m trying to say (and I’m doing a very bad job) is that, even if a person’s motives are selfless, it’s inevitable that they’ll leave pain and trauma in their wake.
I agree with Jules. How can suicide NOT be selfish? I mean, I feel bad for Virginia Woolf and sympathize with the fear and pain she was feeling, but it’s still an awful thing to inflict on someone you love. I’m sure if Virginia had asked her husband his opinion about whether he’d be happier if she were dead vs. alive, he’d have voted for alive. Ditto for any friends, relatives, and parents of any suicide victims. Suicidal people assume they know what everybody wants, or that what they want is more important than that. Not bothering to find out the actual opinions of your friends and family vis-a-vis your continued life or death — that takes a lot of self-absorption and lack of interest in said friends and family, no matter how you slice it.
I quite often think about what my boyfriend’s life would be like if he didn’t have to deal with my depression. Obviously it wouldn’t be as ideal as if he’d never met me, but he’s basically signed up with me to life. He’s described himself as a ‘carer’ and I have put him through a lot. Everyday, for years.
Now I’m taking medication I don’t think like this often at all. I guess what I should ask myself is, how can I deal with the pressure he puts himself under because of me.
If someone is in the late stage of a painful, deadly disease. Committing suicide spares the person pain and suffering. The relatives don’t have to witness an agonizing death of a loved person. I can’t see any selfishness in suicide under those circumstances.
I wouldn’t call ritual suicides, like the Japanese Seppuku, selfish. In other cultures suicide was and probably is accepted. Actually not committing suicide when your cultural rules expects it from you (e.g. loss of honor) might be an selfish act. The rejection of suicide in our western culture certainly stems from Christian morals. Suicide is a sin. The church even refused up to the 19th century to bury suicide victims on their cemeteries.
I think it’s a really, really complicated ethical question if someone has the right to commit suicide.
This. I feel the same about suicide as I do about euthanasia. If people (or animals!) are suffering so much and there’s nothing that can make them better or take away their pain, extreme measures may be the only humane option. So why is “mental” pain any different than “physical” pain? It’s not any less real, not any less damaging, not any less painful.
Also, MagicalLaura, hugs if you want them. I have the exact same problem, just with a husband and kids. I very often wonder how much I am damaging them by being so damaged myself. 🙁 But the meds are helping for me too, most of the time, so that’s good 🙂
I agree with Daran’s post. I was going to post the following earlier today, but the conversation was going on about bees and cookies and liking one another, so I figured that the moment wasn’t quite right. Anyways, seeing as the conversation has taken on a more credible context, here’s my original opinion, that I put together before reading Daran:
I see nothing wrong with calling suicide a selfish act. It is. Just think about it. Do you know any people IRL who you’d seriously want to see kill themselves? If there are, are any of them people you actually like?
By committing suicide, you hurt anybody that cares the least bit about you. Of course, in the midst of suffering that would cause one to consider suicide, someone probably wouldn’t have the energy to care about themselves, let alone what anyone else would think.
I don’t think Ball necessarily did it to hurt his wife and children – but it *will* hurt them, hence the selfishness.
@ Thomas – I think there’s a big distinction between suicide and euthanasia. For the latter, the outcome is an inevitable death. I think there’s a strong argument for saying someone should be able to choose when and how in those circumstances.
I personally am in a similar position to GRA. I’ve suffered with clinical depression since I was 11 when my father died. I’ve gone through long phases of thinking my husband and son would be better off without me. But my dad? No better at parenting than me, but his death was still devastating. I hope I never do that to my son.
I don’t know if any of you femi-fascist man haters care about facts, but if you do, listen up.
Mr. Ball killed himself because he was facing imprisonment on felony child support arrears charges.
Do any of you hate-filled monsters get it?
FATHERS ARE GOING TO PRISON (NOT JAIL) FOR MANY YEARS BECAUSE THEY LOSE THEIR JOBS.
This is the result of feminist hate that you support. If you want “proof”, read it for yourself, on the web site of the feminist man-hating NOW. They are asking for even longer imprisonment for fathers who fall behind on child support due to loss of employment or incapacitation:
http://rinow.org/legislative-agenda/2011-legislative-agenda-draft-as-of-21411/
Is anybody home?!? Are you man-hating femi-fasicsts getting the message? Feminism is a movement of hatred. They are trying to put fathers in prison for many years for “child support arrearage constituting a felony” (in the words of the femi-fascist man haters). How can you sleep at night when you support his kind of bigotry and hatred?!?
Im bi polar , and someone who has several times in his life tried to commit suicide, and in my time in therapy both group and single i have learned a massive amount about suicide and peoples reasons for it . Suicide isnt something thats used as a revenge tool its used as an act of desperation , unless you have been there , and i mean sitting with the bottle and the pills, or in my case after my ex killed herself sitting with the blade you cannot understand where someones mind is , you called his …. suicide note a manifesto and im sorry amanda esp is looking at it through the eyes of a feminist , im looking at it through the eyes of someone who has lost hope and lost faith in the world, the only ones who are victims in this are the one whos dead and the children , his ex wife isnt an issue.
Jules, exactly. That’s why I haven’t actually done it yet, no matter how bad the depression got.
With suicide, I completely understand that the *intent* is (usually) not selfish – (although there ARE cases where the suicide or attempted suicide is meant as a punishment. That’s what my dad did. That’s wrong and selfish and controlling and everything Amanda said. It also sounds like that’s what Ball did).
That doesn’t mean that the consequences aren’t. Intent: it’s not fucking magic.
FACT: Feminists are supporting FELONY (not misdemeanour) PRISON TIME (not jail time), lasting MANY YEARS, for fathers who fall behind on child support due to loss of employment or medical disability.
Read it for yourself, on the man-hating NOW web site:
http://rinow.org/legislative-agenda/2011-legislative-agenda-draft-as-of-21411/
Do any of you have compassion? Empathy? Pity?
The man burned himself to death because he was about to be dragged to prison for losing his job. He was going to be sent to prison, for $3000 in back child support, ON FATHER’S DAY. That is what YOU support.
Live with yourselves, you man hating bigots.
@GRA
Love the link. Will have to save it for future purposes.
Reminds me of back when I was in fifth grade and told some girls (some who had been gymnasts), “No offense, but I think gymnastics is a sissy sport.” Then I couldn’t understand why they were still offended. I mean, I said “No offense.”
Yeah, I know better now. Gymnastics is not a sissy sport, except in the sense that there are some awesome sissies that do it, and “No offense” does not magically make everything better.
@GRA
Love your link.
Amanda Marcotte has a long history of writing incendiary things about men’s rights. For example, she was vociferous in her support of the Duke Lacrosse lynch mob, and has been a very vocal opponent of the legal presumption of innocence for males accused of rape. Therefore, it is hardly surprising that Ms. Marcotte would minimize and belittle the pain of Thomas Ball, and all fathers who have suffered at the hands of family courts. It is also hardly surprising that David Futrelle would wholeheartedly suport the misandry of Ms. Marcotte.
But unfortunately for the Marcottes and Futrelles of the world, justice will eventually triumph. The uber-feminist state that criminializes maleness and seeks to enslave ordinary men cannot stand forever. The worm is already beginning to turn. The hatred and vitriol of women like Amanda Marcotte, and the despicable men who support them, will make no difference in the end.
Meanwhile, in totally unrelated news, selfish feminist and enemy of the patriarchy Carolyn Heilbrun commits suicide.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/n_9589/
Heilbrun’s suicide was an act of will, an idea brought to life. It was something she chose, by herself, for herself. And, like everyone in Heilbrun’s life, including her children and her husband, Caws was stunned.
Ah! A feminist has committed suicide.
All other feminists’ opinions vis-a-vis suicide are hereby invalidated, unless they are congruent with Carolyn Heilbrun’s views on suicide.
Let it be known.
@luke123
Are you trying to prove that feminists can be selfish too? No one’s denying that. I just got through saying I tried to do the same thing once.
Are you trying to draw a parallel with Ball? Because notice how she didn’t leave a note that said, “By the way, fellow feminists, why not throw some molotov cocktails?”
Ooo, and also notice how we’re not calling her a martyr or setting her up as some noble example.
I’m puzzled as to why you posted that link.
Well at least she was selfish.
Ah, never mind. SallyStrange has clarified things for me.
Luke123
IIRC, she committed suicide in October 2003….so not exactly news.