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Amanda Marcotte on the Thomas Ball suicide, and MRA haters

Amanda Marcotte, feminist blogger and Friend of Man Boobz, has been taking a lot of shit from MRAs – and I mean a LOT of shit – for a comment she made here on the Thomas Ball suicide.

As you may already know, Ball burned himself to death outside a New Hampshire courthouse. In a lengthy manifesto he wrote shortly before killing himself, he portrayed his suicide as a protest against a corrupt family court system, and went on to argue that MRAs should quite literally assemble some Molotov cocktails and “start burning down police stations and courthouses.” (You can read the whole manifesto here.)  Despite his calls for violence many MRAs have hailed him as an MRA martyr.

Marcotte, in her comment here, suggested that there might have been other, more personal reasons for his suicide – namely, the desire to hurt his ex-wife:

I’ll point out that setting yourself on fire is an extremely effective tool if your goal is to make your ex-wife’s life a living hell, and if your anger at losing control over her overwhelms all other desires. Which is common enough with abusers, who will ruin their own lives and their own shit and turn their children against them in an effort to hurt the woman they’ve fixated on.

One MR blogger declared this comment “pure feminist evil”; a conservative blogger compared Marcotte to the Beast of Babylon.  Still other MRAs resorted to assorted variations on the c-word.

Marcotte has now responded to this, er, “criticism” with an excellent post on Pandagon. As she points out, correctly,

suicide and threats of suicide are common tactics used by abusers to hurt their victims. Abusers dramatically self-destruct all the time in their desperation to control and hurt the objects of their obsession.  There was just recently a big story about this, in fact: Jason Valdez of Utah, who had a long criminal record that included domestic violence, held a woman hostage in a hotel room for 16 hours and kept updates about the situation on Facebook. He eventually committed suicide.

The notion that suicide can be a hostile, aggressive act designed to hurt other people is hardly a controversial one, whether the person committing suicide is male or female. Threats of suicide are often used to manipulate other people; suicide itself can be an act of revenge.

Marcotte goes on:

Apparently, I’m supposed to pretend that suicide isn’t a disruptive, selfish act in many cases (especially when the suicide victim commits it in a public and destructive way), and that people who do it, while yes victims of their own mental health problems, are also thinking that they’re going to make everyone pay for not indulging them.  In fact, not only is this true in Ball’s case, but he spelled it out in his suicide note.  The “make the bastards suffer” theme of his note is the reason that wingnuts are supporting him.

But you don’t have to take her word for it. Read Ball’s entire manifesto, to the end, and ask yourself if this man is an appropriate “martyr” for any political movement.

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unreal man
13 years ago

@ Pecunium
You must really love this kind of quarreling. I explained carefully what I meant. If you choose to misunderstand it, then no amount of arguing on my part will ever make you so I won’t bother trying anymore. Anyone who does care enough to want to know, can go back and read my comments. Given the tone in your commenting, I suppose I’ll see yet another attempt to provoke and patronize me into explaining myself but it won’t work. This conversation is over as far as I’m concerned.

It’s just worth pointing out to others, that if you can get into such a squabble over what someone might or might not have meant in their writing, then you are clearly not qualified to judge Ball’s or anyone else’s mind based on their writing.

Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

It’s funny how quickly our MRAs play the “hatred” card:

“How dare you ask me to back up my arguments! There’s nothing but hatred here!”

Pro-tip: skepticism is not hatred.

VoiP
VoiP
13 years ago

Buck Swamp:
Hey, muffin! Please don’t go before we continue our conversation! In case you come back, here’s my part:

I noticed you didn’t say anything about my contention that the National Debt, being some big-ol’ bank related business, has nothing to do with how many humans in the US are actually working right now.

You also didn’t answer my question: once they’re Sticking It To The System by becoming unemployed, how will dudes eat? That’s OK, I’ll remind you. I’M HELPING.

The Department of Labor unemployment statistics do not include people who are working part-time but want to work full-time, or people who have quit looking for work altogether. “Real” unemployment is much higher than the official numbers. 20% may be an exaggeration, but the real number for all men is certainly higher than 15%. Historically this is very high, and it won’t be dropping in the forseeable future.

Did you read where my link from the Bureau of Labor Statistics said that there are no reliable data for “underemployment”? Where are you getting 20%—-ahem, 15%, it’s like I’m bargaining you down or something—–from?

As for the male-female college ratio, I think that the important thing to look at is the trend. And the trend for males is dropping fast.

And if current trends continue, expect to get one new season in the “Game of Thrones” series every year, for the rest of our lives. Oh. Wait.

And a 57-43 ratio should be cause for real alarm, anyway…Except for the hard sciences, colleges today are inhospitable places for men.

Well, 53/47 is hardly “droves.” And did you read the link I posted about how this ratio involves a lot of boys from poor backgrounds who are dropping out of high school? Maybe not! There are oodles of reasons for this ratio, baby, and “colleges today are inhospitable places for men” is not the most evidence-rich one! Especially considering that many admissions offices actively seek them out.

VoiP
VoiP
13 years ago

Look around. Almost everything good and useful was invented by men. Historically, women have had babies and men have done everything else. All the great innovaters were and are men. Most of the great artists and writers were and are men. All the best athletes were and are men. Shall I go on?

A woman made this though, so I think we’re even:

VoiP
VoiP
13 years ago

OK Laura, the fun’s over. I get it. In this war every inch of ground will be fought over. Nothing will ever be stipulated. No quarter will ever be given….

I get it. It’s radical feminism or Hell, and nothing in between. It’s hatred and more hatred forever. I finally get it.

You gotta prove what you say, Mr. Prissypants. That’s not “hatred,” that’s “having a discussion.”

VoiP
VoiP
13 years ago

Duncan’s leaving too? NOOOO

and i think i will step back from discourse, after reading that page and seeing that this seems to be a “your either a feminist or a mysoginst” style of page there seems to be no hope for discourse without insult ….. as such im afraid you will miss the chance to actually have two sides rationally debate issues that matter to them , just because i disagree with feminisim as it exists today ( and i come from a family where my granfather was excommunicated from the church for joining the communist party as he belived it was the most morally right politics ) so i have been raised to stand by my convictions and to listen and talk sometimes i have even been swayed by arguments , but tell you what…[a bloo bloo bloo, on and on and on…]
To those who I talked to and were friendly, listened and replied , thank you for the talk and the respect ….. mods maybe you need to review things because this is sad.

Something here is sad, all right. I think it’s the grammar.

unreal man
13 years ago

“You gotta prove what you say, Mr. Prissypants. ”

How about holding others to the same standard?
Ask all those experts who declare the suicide of someone they’ve never met to be “selfish” to prove it.

unreal man
13 years ago

Think I better leave too.
I made my point about suicide and people can take it or leave it.

Pecunium
13 years ago

unreal man: Those would be the citations to studies on suicidal motivations used in the earlier in the comment stream (here et sequalae).

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

What’s the over/under on how many of these flounces stick? o_O Or maybe the over/under on how many hours they stay flounced? xD

I say for (the v obv just here to troll and “bother” ppl but end up being the one who gets rly upset xD ) Buck Swamp (who I call Cobra Commander in my head b/c he’s so much like him xD w/ his crazy schemes and plans, laughing about plans and telling them to ppl before they’re complete, then stomping when things go bad XD tho if he draws his face in the moon that’d be pretty darn awesome xD ) the over/under is .. hmm… 3.5 hours!

It’s 3:30PM (EDT) right now… so that’d be 7PM…

so… place your bets! will he be back before 3.5 hours is over or after? XD

I also love how the response when they get too frustrated to keep going is always “I GET IT I GET IT PENIS SUCKS VAGINA IS BEAUTIFUL, WOMEN CAN DO NO WRONG, YOU GUYS ARE JUST SO HATEFUL” xD I’m sure they think this… has.. some.. effect.. xD

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

@unreal man that’s actually probably a good idea (I’m not mocking you) :] You did make your point and said what you said, and the rest would end up just as a flame war : (I’m not encouraging you to leave cuz I dun like you or nething, but I am always impressed by ppl who recognize when the point of their first showing up is over and realize they’re about to be dragged into the mud if they go further in online arguments)

Pecunium
13 years ago

ami: We all know vaginas suck (or at least clamp down).

mediumdave
mediumdave
13 years ago

I must say that I’m disappointed in old Toysoldier… he used to be so much better at the “concern troll” game. He could’ve played up the “Thomas Ball was obviously an abuse survivor himself” angle (something we actually have no information about, but it’s plausible), but instead he came here to make excuses for an abusive dad* and engage in Marcotte-bashing**.

*Not only that, but at his own blog he’s claiming that slapping a child hard enough to draw blood isn’t child abuse! What is it, a loving touch?

**OTOH I have more confirmation of my hypothesis about the phenomenon I call MDS (anti-feminists, upon seeing the words “Amanda Marcotte”, completely lose their sense of reason).

Ami Angelwings
13 years ago

The original sources, since you said you read them. Not some list on an MRA site. Provide context for these remarks, and a link if possible.

That’s prolly where he read them >_>

Schala
Schala
13 years ago

“*Not only that, but at his own blog he’s claiming that slapping a child hard enough to draw blood isn’t child abuse! What is it, a loving touch?”

A simple slap could cause blood to be drawn from a lip, no?

I’ve been spanked harder (and more than once), just not on the lip. CPS didn’t remove me from my home.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
13 years ago

Look around. Almost everything good and useful was invented by men. Historically, women have had babies and men have done everything else. All the great innovaters were and are men. Most of the great artists and writers were and are men. All the best athletes were and are men. Shall I go on?

Oh great monkey gods. This crap again. I love when they try to make this argument with not even the slightest hint of awareness of the historical context of societal restraints placed on women. It’s difficult to be an innovator or inventor when, if you can afford the education you’re expected not to work, and if you’re a women who works then you’re too poor to afford the education. And even if you can afford it, you’re limited by which schools may or may no accept you.

The same social expectations apply to artists and writers. Jane Austin was published anonymously until after her death because she was a woman. Even today the Harry Potter books were written by J.K. Rowling instead of Joanne Rowling because of fears that young boys wouldn’t want to read books written by women.

You don’t have to look far today for extremist versions of this thinking, such as Afghanistan where teachers are killed for teaching girls. We’re fortunate it was never that bad here in the West, but to have a history of denying opportunities to women then crowing over how the men who got to enjoy those opportunities were so much better at it than women?
That’s just bullshit.

Schala
Schala
13 years ago

I’m saying that because you seem to be claiming that it was a routine, for no reason, thing, for the evulz.

Sometimes it’s someone losing their temper, not a willful act meant to hurt. Apparently intent doesn’t matter in those cases.

aMiRA
aMiRA
13 years ago

Man lightly slaps child in anger, accidentally drawing blood, feminists cry abuse. Woman uses child as baseball bat to hit another person. Where’s the outcry? If they took her child away, I’m pretty sure you feminists would be cheering her on if she set herself on fire.

Bee
Bee
13 years ago

“A simple slap could cause blood to be drawn from a lip, no?”

Possibly, although we know that he did more than slap her once, since he admitted in court to slapping his daughter three times across her face. His daughter said that he pushed her on the back and then hit her face “a lot,” until she bled.

Jesus christ. This is one thing that we don’t have to make wild guesses about, and still here you are, making wild, but wrong, guesses about things that are easily learned through Lord Google.

And when you’re talking about an adult hitting a 4-year-old in the face, I say no, intent does not matter. There’s no valid reason for an adult to do that.

Pecunium
13 years ago

Schala: No… no one is saying it was routine. We are saying it was an act of abuse. The, “intent” doesn’t matter in those cases. Abuse isn’t murder, there isn’t a requirement for mens rea.

The courts even agreed it wasn’t habitual. If they had found a patter of abuse he wouldn’t have been offered such a sweet deal (what was it, two counseling sessions and everything is better?).

I can tell you this, if he had been on active duty and this came to his commander’s attention… it would have been a lot harder to get his shit squared away. Unless his commander really liked him (and it hadn’t come to the attention of the civil authorities), his ass would have been in a sling.

Not as often as I’d like (and some branches [combat arms, I’m looking at you] aren’t as attentive to abuse issues as they should be) but most of the time… it’s a career changer to have an abuse rap happen. You can get away with whomping on your spouse a lot more than you can get away with beating your kid (and that is a piece of blowback from the Lautenberg Amendment, which I think was well intentioned but ill-implemented).

But he wouldn’t lift the least finger to carry his weight on this. Never the least admission that hitting your four-year old kid in the face and splitting a lip wasn’t something which might warrant a bit of intervention.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
13 years ago

aMiRA, instead of claiming that feminists see that woman as a hero, how about showing us examples of feminists seeing her as a hero? How about examples of feminists arguing that she should be allowed to keep her child? She used her child as a weapon, for crying out loud! She needs to be locked up!
But considering that the police are looking for her and she will likely be arrested, what kind of outcry are you looking for from us? I don’t see anyone arguing that she shouldn’t be.
If you expect to post random articles about women committing crimes and expect them to be making some sort of point, you are a bigger idiot than I previously thought.

Schala
Schala
13 years ago

Okay, three times is a bit much, but from experience, drawing blood from your lip is easy, especially if your lips naturally dry off like mine.

So we can’t measure the strength of the hits. I would personally think the damage is more psychological (which doesn’t mean it’s better – believe me, years of being beaten up never got me in the hospital, but they certainly demolished my self-worth).

I don’t know the circumstances surrounding the abuse, or how his relationship was back then. Though just reading his very long letter, I feel it was a very desperate act, from someone who pretty much lost all hope of things EVER getting better. I’ve been there.

I’d usually end up deleting this stuff said in anger, this stuff about wanting things to change for the best in the world…and just thinking…whatever, not like I’d have an impact in any sort of way.

Doesn’t push me towards suicide nowadays, but certainly prevents my seriously wanting to work, educate myself or generally improve my condition, because what is it all for?

I don’t believe we necessarily have purpose or destiny, and I think the world is seriously fucked up…and working and educating myself would just be playing right into it. Doing what the corrupt elements (big corporate, big government, big “I want to use you for monetary gain person”) want me to do.

The system is built so that it can change over time, slowly…but always enough to keep itself on top. A la The One in the Matrix, restarted 6 times before, the revolution came to do the exact same thing and repeat history. So why bother if nothing will really change or improve? My contribution means nada.

aMiRA
aMiRA
13 years ago

Your defensiveness is all the proof I need. If feminists did not support this woman, why would you get so defensive? You would simply link me to the many many sites condemning her and that would be that. It is also telling that you categorize her actions as “random” yet none of you ever refer to male abusers’ as “random”.

I also find it telling that your response was not to condemn her but to say that it is okay because your precious state will handle it. Convenient.

Schala
Schala
13 years ago

And that’s why I use blogs as entertainment. If I took it seriously, I’d be long dead.

My goal in life is to play video games, and eventually die. Not suicide, just sometimes you die when not immortal.

No other goal worth pursuing.