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Weekend Open Thread Dada Party!

Schampa wulla wussa olobo!

Welcome to the Weekend Open Thread Dada Party. Talk about whatever you want. And don’t worry if some of the words you use aren’t actual words. The Dadaists didn’t care about that sort of thing. Blago bung, blago bung. Bosso Fataka!

Click here or here to hear Kurt Schwitters read some of  his Dadaist poetry. For more on this poem, see here.

Enjoy! Or, as Hugo Ball might have put it, ba – umf.

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kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Ion:

Thought you might get a laugh out of this one. I have discovered a new awesome technique!

ami: guys were fawning all over me today xD and i hated it.. but if osmebody insulted me, i def wouldn’t be going home w/ them xD
kirby: apparently it only works on typically beautiful people. 😛
ami: i’m not typically beautiful?
ami: *gasp*
ami: you just negged me kirby!
kirby: xD
kirby: NOW SLEEP WITH MEE!
ami: OKAY!
kirby: it worked! ^__^
kirby: that was called a desperation hit

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

It’s a limit break! xD

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

And cuz I forgot ALL about neg as a concept of Puaness xD

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx134/ami_angelwings/Magyc%20Cards/Neg.jpg

conteckts

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

This small tease is supposed to make a woman interested in you sexually, yes? Why exactly would you use it on your kid sister?

It’s supposed to make you stand apart from the sycophants, show confidence, and build rapport and familiarity. Although I think you could guess that yourself and were being intentionally obtuse.

And saying ‘i insult you, now have sex with me’ as a description of negging is about as informed and accurate as the typical MRA quotes about feminists. 😉

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Ion:

You say that “negging” is “a useful stepping stone for socially awkward guys…” Isn’t this exactly wrong? Wouldn’t socially awkward guys be more likely to say “you’re too fat for your ankles?” And how does insulting someone “show confidence, and build rapport and familiarity?” Wouldn’t.. you know.. polite conversation that doesn’t focus on how someone looks, or the ability to look your patner in the eye instead of in the boobs be more effective?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@David:

He only wishes he could pull off something like this.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

You say that “negging” is “a useful stepping stone for socially awkward guys…” Isn’t this exactly wrong? Wouldn’t socially awkward guys be more likely to say “you’re too fat for your ankles?”

They would, at first. When you learn a new skill, are you perfect at it from the first try? Eventually they’d understand how it works, learn to apply it better, and finally get to the stage where it came naturally and they wouldn’t think of it anymore.

And how does insulting someone “show confidence, and build rapport and familiarity?”

Here’s where you completely ignore what I wrote just a little while ago, so I’m not going to repeat myself. Like I said, intentionally obtuse.

Wouldn’t.. you know.. polite conversation that doesn’t focus on how someone looks, or the ability to look your patner in the eye instead of in the boobs be more effective?

Polite conversation generally leads to polite conversation. Most guys interested in PUA techniques want a little more than that. And nowhere does it say a neg should be focused on looks. The looking in the eye part… I don’t even know where that came from.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

Here’s another example of first class negging.

@Ion:

Alright, so you keep insisting that somehow insulting people will get them to like you. How would *you* personally feel if someone were to start criticizing your looks on a date? Would you be more or less interested in the girl? Would you be more or less likely (on those comments alone) to want to go on a second date?

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

Alright, so you keep insisting that somehow insulting people will get them to like you.

When you’re done punching that strawman, I’ll be over here.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Ion:

I dunno, this straman seems fleshy and well-bodied to me. Are you saying that negs aren’t insults? Or are you saying that they aren’t supposed to get people to like you? Or would you like to clarify? My question still stands.

Graham
9 years ago

Kirby, my understanding of “negging” is that it’s designed to subtly undermine a woman’s confidence and self-esteem. If the woman is good looking, and accustomed to being flattered and hit on, I can see how a well-delivered “neg” might work.

How that it makes her more likely to be attracted to the PUA I guess depends on how charming he is despite the “negging”. People often lust after those who seem out of their league, and I guess “negging” is a way of implying lack of interest.

Ion’s right that polite conversation leads mainly to polite conversation, and if what you’re after is a post-bar one night stand I’m certain many PUA techniques could be effective (as long as you’re already handsome and confident enough to employ them properly). And I’m not sure that second dates are on the PUA agenda.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Graham:

I’m almost postive it has more to do with the charm than the neg, but it still seems shady. But polite doesn’t necessarily mean “only say nice things” or “don’t talk about anything naughty,” its just not being rude (I see “negging” as rude, as described). If you’re talking to a woman who’s interested in a one-night-fling, you shouldn’t need to trick them into it.

If they aren’t interested, then PUA is either convincing unwilling participants into sex, or a very very shitty way of determining whether a woman is interested or not. Either way, its no wonder they are viewed as sleazebags.

Graham
9 years ago

I would say the things that PUAs actually advocate doing to attract women are fairly standard ways of flirting, and people have unconsciously done those things since forever.

What’s unpleasant to me is the mentality cultivated by PUA sites and forums, with their conscious weaponisation of flirting techniques and their contempt for unsuspecting women who succumb. Thousands of men all getting together to hone their psychological trickery skills while supporting each others’ misogyny is fucking creepy.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Graham:

Alright.. so people who are already good friends, or at least friendly, can insult each other jokingly, and neither will be offended. But that hinges on the two already knowing each other, and knowing the insult was not serious or meant to be harmful. Perhaps you could say that is part of flirting, but it certainly isn’t when two people aren’t already friendly towards each other. And yet ‘negging’ seems to be an entry, not a continuation. This is what my poor non-PUA brain fails to comprehend. And if Ion would get off his high horse about my supposed strawmanning, maybe he’ll actually explain it rather than say “You don’t get it. And I’m not gonna tell you either, because you don’t get it.” 😛

Graham
9 years ago

Yeah, I think the problem may be that you probably look at the world as being full of individuals with their own desires and idiosyncracies, whereas PUAs look at it as an urban savannah in which they are lions and women are antelopes – and a neg is a claw swipe at the ankle designed to make the prey easier to pin down.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

Alright, I think I have it now.. Just roll with me on this one.

PUA is when people who have no idea what human interaction looks like examine an actual interaction, and try to piece together how to recreate it. It comes up with rules and models and so forth that, if they work, only work by accident. And you get PUA masters who for some reason can successfully interact with people (at least short term), but are very bad at introspection.

How’d I do? ^__^

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Graham:

Well, if my problem is that I look at other people as human beings… I’ll take that impairment. *shrug* It’s worked for me so far. Thanks for the help, though. Some of the stuff I read about here…. it just boggles the mind.

Graham
9 years ago

“PUA is when people who have no idea what human interaction looks like examine an actual interaction, and try to piece together how to recreate it.”

Yes, exactly. But I actually think their examination and conclusions have some validity, and that their successes are not solely accidental. Though it’s hard to tell, because if you go out every night and hit on a dozen different people I guess eventually you might end up in bed with one of them regardless.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

I dunno, this straman seems fleshy and well-bodied to me. Are you saying that negs aren’t insults?

Yes. If they come across as insults, you’re doing it wrong. In fact I spelled that out clearly earlier. You just ignored it, or pretended to.

Or are you saying that they aren’t supposed to get people to like you?

Not by themselves. They’re a way to communicate that you have confidence, value and aren’t just another supplicant who’ll lavish her with compliments and be ready to agree with anything she says. In other words, they work as part of a cool, confident attitude.

I’m glad that you, kirbywarp, are such a natural ladies’ man that you can effortlessly pick up women while smirking at the poor saps who lack the confidence or social skills to do so. Unfortunately, those without your natural gifts have to find a way, and this stuff works.

Graham: Pretty much agreed. Most PUA techniques are actually standard ways of flirting, just analyzed in more detail than usual. Unfortunately some PUAs themselves can be rather creepy and misogynist. It’s a matter of taking what’s good and useful and disregarding the rest.

alphaassholecockcarousel
alphaassholecockcarousel
9 years ago

@Ami @CaptainBathrobe

LOL at “one human’s unpierceable armor is another demon’s bathrobe”.

Graham
9 years ago

But I have to say some of the advice handed out by PUA “masters” is sound.

“Try not to come across as clingy and subservient” is a good thing to bear in mind if you want to be attractive to people. “Pay some attention to your clothes and posture”, likewise. I don’t think everything that PUAs advocate is inherently evil – it’s just the psychopathic way that most of them talk about it that sticks in my craw.

alphaassholecockcarousel
alphaassholecockcarousel
9 years ago

I also want to say, by way of introduction, that entitled bitches been ridin’ me all weekend, and I’m getting chafed!

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

On the subject of tattoos, I have two; a dragon across the back of my shoulders and a hydralisk above my right breast.

Plymouth
Plymouth
9 years ago

Ami – Ohhh, I think I like that new one better. It’s got those nifty blood-lines. Mmm, blood. Also I think it looks more like me than the other one. And it reminds me of Alien 🙂

Speaking of boob eyes, I really want this t-shirt:
http://www.zazzle.com/boobie_eyes_tshirt-235306190751922399

If you search for “boobie eyes” on zazzle there are a LOT of them. But I think that one is the classiest.

Plymouth
Plymouth
9 years ago

I have two tats so far and working on the design for my third. They are:
1) a Chrysler symbol for my first car (a plymouth. Yup, that’s where the nic comes from). It’s on my chest just above my cleavage – that’s my hood insignia 🙂
2) a modified Cadillac symbol for my second car – that’s on my lower back, so it’s my trunk insignia.

The one I’m working on is a set of planetary gears, which is not for any specific car but is an integral part of automatic transmissions so is definitely with the car theme. This is my latest iteration:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/plymouths/4900029189/in/set-72157625395149565
It’s going to be an arm band (won’t go completely around – it will basically go from front to back right where my arm meets my body when it is down).

amandajane5
amandajane5
9 years ago

@ithiliana

I’m reading The Royal Book of Oz because I was correct about the books being available online and that was the first one on the list that I hadn’t read and Holy Racism! We’ve gone now from horrifying descriptions of just how weird and backwards the “Chinamen” are to how horrible their food is – so horrible that the Scarecrow, who does not eat food, is appalled. It’s so fucking bizarre. I’m not even sure if I can finish this one!

ithiliana
9 years ago

AmandaJane5: That one (and the SILVER MOUNTAIN PRINCESS) are arguably the worst (i.e. racist stereotypes part of plot and characterization in a major way).

That was never one of my favorites, and I”d nearly forgotten about it.

It’s not online, alas, but I love Merry-Go-Round in Oz which stereotypes British fox hunting instead! And MERRY GO ROUND LIVING HORSE!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_Go_Round_in_Oz

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

smirking at the poor saps who lack the confidence or social skills to do so.

but that’s what makes him so attractive to us ladies! 😀

Also I’ve rly wanted to get a tattoo (or a few) for a while since I transitioned but I keep not having money for it : I do now… but I’m unsure what I want now xD and i prolly need somebody to design it for me… xD so I need to find somebody to do that too xD i want angel wings… and I prolly want the supergirl S symbol somewhere connected to it xD

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/2006-post-crisis-reviews/supergirltattoo.jpg

also maybe that, cuz she had that tattoo in one comic book and I thought it was awesome XD

Pecunium
9 years ago

Graham: PUAs look at it as an urban savannah in which they are lions and women are antelopes – and a neg is a claw swipe at the ankle designed to make the prey easier to pin down.

Which is part of the problem, right there. See again, the second formulation of the Categorical Imperative, Treat people as ends in themselves, not as means to an end.

Ion: I’m glad that you, kirbywarp, are such a natural ladies’ man that you can effortlessly pick up women while smirking at the poor saps who lack the confidence or social skills to do so. Unfortunately, those without your natural gifts have to find a way, and this stuff works

I think Graham actually got closer to the real situation with, if you go out every night and hit on a dozen different people I guess eventually you might end up in bed with one of them regardless..

COnfirmatin bias will make it seem the PUA techniques are what did it, when really it was that people like sex, and will say yes to someone if they are in the mood.

amandajane5
amandajane5
9 years ago

@ithiliana

It’s really appalling! And it was RPT’s first one, talk about an inauspicious start!

I want to read the merry-go-round living horse one! I still say View Halloo as a greeting because of the ones from Mary Poppins! I’m going to have to see if I can find it at some point.

dreamhouse
dreamhouse
9 years ago

Yes, he certainly came across as blatantly insulting, but I do think he was trying to neg. He said a lot of nice things, then tried to work in the insult/neg as though it wasn’t a big deal. Kind of like “you look so nice tonight etc….it’s just a shame about your ankles…” which makes me think he was trying to slip a little something negative in but went a bit over the top.

Maybe I’m wrong. I don’t use negging in my flirting repertoire.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

“I think Graham actually got closer to the real situation with, if you go out every night and hit on a dozen different people I guess eventually you might end up in bed with one of them regardless..

COnfirmatin bias will make it seem the PUA techniques are what did it, when really it was that people like sex, and will say yes to someone if they are in the mood.”

That’s just a guess though, from someone trying to convince himself that PUA techniques don’t work. I’ve seen videos of some of these guys in action, and they pretty much get their target. They don’t randomly hit on a hundred women until one of them says yes.

If there’s a downside to it, it’s that some guys become too wrapped up in ‘the pickup game’ and start to treat it as a goal in itself, forgetting the initial reason they started in the first place – to meet and attract women and eventually get a relationship. The good ones (e.g., Neil Strauss) realize it eventually and snap out of it, though.

firebee
firebee
9 years ago

“I’ve seen videos of some of these guys in action, and they pretty much get their target.”

Where did these videos come from?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Ion:

And do you really think PUAs would post videos of their failures?

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

firebee: I dunno, MTV? I saw a couple on Youtube, and some on a VH1 show I think.

kirby: What does having failures have to do with their success rate? Can you name a field in which failures are non-existent? It sounds like you’re just grasping for reasons to discredit them, and I’m not sure why.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@Ion:

X_X You… gah…

If a PUA fails 99/100 times, but only posts the video of the sucess, that has everything to do with the success rate. If, on the other hand, a PUA succeeds 99/100 times, that still has everything to do with the successrate. Success rate cannot be determined without knowing the number of failures. How do you not realize this?

Johnny Pez
9 years ago

Success rate cannot be determined without knowing the number of failures. How do you not realize this?

I’m guessing basic stupidity.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Ion: Have you got any data from a non-interested source?

Have you got even several nights of footage, from the moment they walked into the “target rich environment” until they left?

Or is it a ten minute slice of life where the guy tells you, “this is how it works”?

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

@ithiliana and amandajane5

The naked racism in The Royal Book of Oz really soured me on RPT; I was already biased against any non-Baum Oz books, but I thought I’d give her a chance since she had been given the job by Baum’s publishers.

Now if it’s true that she wrote books under Baum’s name, that’s very interesting because I thought there were a few Oz books that definitely stood out from the rest as being different. It would be ironic indeed if it turned out they were the ones written by RPT.

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

ugh, meant to say: Ironic because they were my favorite books.

ithiliana
9 years ago

Speedlines: As far as I know, the Royal BOok as published under Baum’s name originally, and maybe one other, but the original authorship has been restored. She also wrote seven books on her own.

All I can say is that the others she are very different from TRB–I don’t consider it representative of her work at all, and is one of my least favorite of all of them (even before I realized the racism in it–which I didn’t in the early 1960s).

I’d be interested to know which ones you thought stood out?

speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

The ones that stood out were: Rinkitink in Oz, The Lost Princess of Oz, and Glinda of Oz. The first one was a straight-up adventure story, the second was kind of weirdly gothic, and the third was almost science fiction. Those were my three favorites.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

If a PUA fails 99/100 times, but only posts the video of the sucess, that has everything to do with the success rate.

Do you know he failed 99/100 times? No, it’s just a BS assumption you pulled out of your ass because you desperately need to convince yourself it doesn’t work. Point is, I saw proof of it working, and a lot more than once. These guys walk into a club, they get women. Are you saying they walked into 100 different clubs before that and it didn’t work, so they didn’t film it? Again, that’s just your own assumption based on a need to feel superior to these guys. I feel sorry for you. Here, I’ll put it differently. I say it works because I saw proof of it working. You say it doesn’t because… it probably only works rarely, and stuff. Because you say so. Therefore-

I’m guessing basic stupidity.

In your case Johnny, it’s more than a guess, it’s a certainty.

Man, I can’t believe the nastiness that gets pulled out when someone discusses PUA stuff. Threatened much?

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

That’s nitpicking at details and ignoring the bigger argument. Which, as I see it, is basically. “Hey, the stuff these guys do works, there’s video of it”. “Uh, they probably failed a lot more, they’re just not showing that.” “How do you know?” “I just do, I’m right because I say so, you’re stupid and wrong and blah blah *dodge dodge nitpick*”. That’s what we got so far.

Ion
Ion
9 years ago

* I should have said “nitpicking at pointless details”. I may have worded things poorly when I talked about success rate, and people predictably seized upon that point to attack me, while dodging the larger argument. Freaking high-school debate team in here.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Ion: Methodology isn’t pointless details. It’s why one does actual studies. If PUA tactics work, then the sorts of, “nitpicky” details (studies with control groups, testable behaviors, valid operational definitions

The problem is, so far as can be seen, what we have is PUAs saying, “This works, and I’ve had success”.

But the people who can’t make it work are told, “well, it works, you are just doing it wrong.” Convenient that. It’s not that Game has problems; “Game can’t fail, it can only be failed,” to paraphrase some of the stuff I’ve seen.

“It’s not that negging doesn’t work, it’s that he chose a bad neg,” to deal with examples from this very thread.

A test would be for an “expert” gamer to design some generic neg; one that’s “decent” and then see how it works in the real world. How one is going to establish a control group is a bit trickier (this is why psychological studies are so hard, and why so many people either discount them altogether, or fall for bogus stuff like EvPsych. The design of the data collection is really hard, even before the task of crunching the numbers is done).

So it’s not a question of it beinag a “high-school debate team” but that success is the critical measure. How successful “Game” is at getting women interested (as opposed to how many women are just generally interested and didn’t need to be Gamed) is the question to be answered.

And that’s what PUAs don’t talk about.

filetofswedishfish
9 years ago

I’m gonna give this a shot, and hope to see some folks. We did this at Jezebel a year or two ago, and it could get pretty awesome. If you have mIrc that works, but here’s the web client: http://webchat.irchighway.net/ and I just typed in #manboobz. I don’t own the room or anything- I don’t know how to set that up. But it’s a room, and I’m in it. Come say hi! I’m just cleaning my house!